Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 1, 2012 10:55:41 GMT -5
DC prepares prequels for Watchmen while Alan Moore shares his disdainby: Alejandro Stepenberg www.joblo.comTechnically this is comic book and not movie news, though it's certainly always possible that movies galore will come out of DC's next major endeavor: AlanMoore"On Wednesday DC Entertainment is expected to announce that its DC Comics imprint intends to publish seven comic-book mini-series that will continue the stories of the adventurers introduced in Watchmen... The new mini-series, collectively called Before Watchmen and scheduled to start in the summer, will not be direct sequels to the original, which has been widely praised for its sophisticated storytelling and for its emphatic (if deliberately ambiguous) ending. Instead a new group of writers and illustrators will expand on the back stories of the costumed vigilantes like Rorschach and Nite Owl." DC, to be fair, is barging into this while well aware of the concern, doubt, and fan-rage that this move will draw. The publisher has called the upcoming comics "as highly anticipated as they are controversial," and gone on to say "it’s our responsibility as publishers to find new ways to keep all of our characters relevant, after 25 years the Watchmen are classic characters whose time has come for new stories to be told." Is that true? Is that bullshit? Your call. Alan Moore is of course not pleased, responding to DC's plan by calling it "completely shameless. I tend to take this latest development as a kind of eager confirmation that they are still apparently dependent on ideas that I had 25 years ago.” He then concluded his thoughts by stressing his concern that the publishing of these prequels "only [weakens] the argument that comics were an authentic form of literature. 'As far as I know,' he said, 'there weren’t that many prequels or sequels to ‘Moby-Dick.'" You can find the whole story, along with further words from original artist Dave Gibbons and other industry people here. www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/books/dc-comics-plans-prequels-to-watchmen-series.html?_r=3&src=tpSource: The New York Times     
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 1, 2012 11:11:35 GMT -5
The only ones I'm mildly interested in are Minutemen by Darwyn Cooke and Silk Spectre by Cooke and Amanda Conner. And even those I'm trade waiting/library waiting on. Darwyn Cooke is easily one of my favorite creators these days, so I give everything he does a shot eventually.
Not even REMOTELY interested in the others, especially those written by JMS.
At the end of the day, if it keeps comics alive, and if it gets new people into comic shops, I'm in favor of it. That doesn't mean that I'm gonna buy it, read it, or enjoy it. But, comics are in trouble. Big trouble. If this is what it takes to get new readers so I can keep getting my Wednesday afternoon fix, so be it. These will sell PLENTY of copies without my help.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 1, 2012 13:44:06 GMT -5
Get ready for this eventually Is it sad that the Saturday morning Watchmen video is better than the damn movie?  The fan film understood Watchmen and the point of it even while satirizing it and 80's cartoons. These prequels are just DC trying to squeeze more money out of Watchmen. Pure greed. The story doesn't need anything else added to it. I'd actually respect them more if they just SAID it was to make money instead of trying to reassure people. I saw JMS's name on the credits to Underworld Awakening. What the blue heck happened to that guy? Its like his talent went beyond the rim of the galaxy and left his hack ass here on earth. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 1, 2012 21:58:06 GMT -5
Gents, some buddies of mine were discussing this via e-mail. These are more or less my final thoughts on the matter. Pasted from my e-mail. It's a long post. The short version: I am not morally opposed to it. Yes it's greed, but it's necessary greed. I won't be buying it. The long version below:
ok...as a realist, I am in favor of this. Comics are in trouble, and anything that gets new people into comic shops so that I can continue to get my Wednesday afternoon fix is a good thing. I'm going to conservatively estimate that these books will average 100,000 copies sold each, in reality it will be more than that, so this means DC will sell an additional FIVE MILLION comics in the second half of 2012. This is a good thing. Undeniably. I'm all for it.
However, as a fan, this barely moves the needle for me. It will be difficult for me to resist a Darwyn Cooke Minutemen book, or a Cooke/Conner Silk Spectre, but in all likelihood, I'm trade/library waiting on those. I reserve the right to cave in when I'm staring at fresh copies of Minutemen #1 on some Wednesday soon!
But the others? No way. No how. I don't buy JMS books, and I don't think an Azzarello comic has ever moved me. JG Jones lost all credibility with me after his bungling of Final Crisis. I find Lee Bermejo's art to be dreadfully unappealing, as I do with Jae Lee. And Len Wein? For real? Legacy was terrible. That Dr. Manhattan/Silk Spectre image by Hughes tells me everything I need to know about this comic. "Look! Kinky sex! She's underage! He's a god! I'm JMS! Adam Hughes draws chicks with beach balls for tits!" It's the lowest kind of fanboy pandering.
It's not that I'm upset, and it's not that I don't think it should be done (as I stated above, there is a NEED for this to happen). But, the beauty of some works of fantasy is that you enter a world that is fully formed, with its own history, that plays by its own rules, and there is no obsessive fanboy need to explain every aspect of the universe (the original Star Wars, Tolkien, etc). Watchmen bears repeated readings BECAUSE you don't know everything about the universe. Because you see things in the background that you didn't see before that open up new ways of thinking about the bigger picture. The beauty of Watchmen is knowing there is a history, extrapolating what you know based on what you know, not about the characters (who are fully-formed), but about the art-form itself and the conventions of superhero storytelling.
I don't need to read about the first time Rorschach fought Moloch, or about how Dr. Manhattan invented the electric car or the non-cancer causing cigarette, or about how Dan Dreiberg built all of this Night Owl gadgets to know that these things happened. There's no way this won't have an acute case of prequel-itis (See the moment Jenny Slater first coughs up blood! Experience Rorschach's inexorable slide into Tea Party insanity! Watch as Dan Dreiberg's last girlfriend leaves him because he's impotent! Giggle knowingly as we explore Ozymandias' homosexuality!). Some of these fully-formed universes are best left alone. (see: Lucas, George). I'm afraid to have Watchmen cheapened by inferior and unnecessary storytelling. I recently watched the original Star Wars trilogy, and, try as I might, I can no longer separate those films from those inferior films which came after/before. Once you pull back the curtain, the magic is gone.
Look at it this way. I love All Star Superman. In 75 years and thousands of Superman stories published, it is my favorite, and arguably the best. Do I want more? Sure. But do I need Grant Morrison to explain to me every aspect of the universe that All Star Superman operates/exists in? No. The beauty of that book is that you didn't need to read 75 years of Superman continuity to appreciate the breadth of it, you merely needed to be aware that other stories exist. Watchmen operated on the same principle WITHOUT the benefit of recognizable trademarks. This is why, 100 readings later, Watchmen continues to grow in stature in my mind. By taking a commentary on the nature of serial fiction and turning it into serial fiction, you're not only missing the point, you're diluting the message. DC certainly KNOWS this, and doesn't care. Nor should they. The Comic Industry As We Know it is in grave danger, and if this is what it takes to save it, then roll 'em out! But, I don't think they need my dollar for this one. They'll sell quite enough without me.
But, to add one more positive to the plus column...THIS is DC's big summer event. No bullshit crossovers in the regular DCU. For that, I am grateful...which means I'll probably have room in my budget to buy Cooke's Minutemen. Damn it. They got me again.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 1, 2012 22:14:56 GMT -5
If something like this is a HUGE hit then it'll just be more of the same. More whoring out instead of original stuff. There will always be fresh original stuff but thats not where the moneys at. And if the industry goes into the toilet like this I'm not sure its worth saving.
Then again its been going this way for a long time. Dark Knight Strikes Again was like taking a painful shit.
If comics are in trouble they need to think radically instead of quick fix solutions. That never works for long. They've tried gimmicks in the past and that only dug the hole DEEPER. All the bullshit they tried in the 90's to bring comics back en vogue only made things worse.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 1, 2012 22:24:23 GMT -5
Well, the only way for me to be sure that Watchmen isn't diluted is to not read these, which is probably what's gonna happen.
But, I'm not joking about my 5 million estimate (not per issue, obviously...I mean total for all 35 comics). And that doesn't figure in digital and trade sales. A boost like that in one financial quarter will pretty much insure that the industry stays alive for a few more years. It's all I give a damn about.
The DC reboot will be a year old in a few months, it's still going strong, DC's sales are better than ever across the board, and they haven't even released the first wave of trades yet. Was it a stunt? Absolutely. But it's working, and I think it's gonna continue to work. And the fact that there's no reset button being pushed anytime soon is proof of their commitment to it. I guess this Watchmen nonsense was the only way to top that.
The Dark Knight Strikes Again analogy is a valid one. That's where I learned my lesson.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 2, 2012 10:46:24 GMT -5
If history is any indicator this stunt will peter out like all others. One step forward two steps back. Its like a man drinking alcohol in the desert to stay alive. Temporary relief but in the long run is only going to hurt.
The comic book industry needs to think about some long term solutions. Using their outside medias higher profile better is one thing. Using that clout to get better distribution and lower costs. If a stand alone issue cost less than a fast food meal some people MIGHT take a look. Making comics physically and creatively more accessible to new readers. Offer some better incentives.
Getting out of supermarkets and drug stores and retail stores years ago in favor of shops was one of the worst things the industry ever did. Using gimmicks and constant crossovers to out a stranglehold on a niche market of ever shrinking over fans has only backfired on them because eventually many of us just feel burned. Look at Enrique and myself.
I see a few more comics back in regular stores these days but its not enough. Staying a step BEHIND technology instead of a step ahead hurt as well.
If they want kids to read (and believe me THATS what the industry needs...fresh turnover and new young readers) they need to appeal to them. Nobody can say kids WONT read. Look a potter. IF they can have the attention span for a whole BOOK then surely they can read 20 something pages.
An ever aging fanbase of Gen Xers and post Gen Xers isn't going to be there for much longer. The older we all get we have other responsibilities.
Comics haven't brought in new readers en mass for 20 years. The industry is lucky its survived this long.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 2, 2012 15:39:02 GMT -5
The day and date digital plans that have been taking effect this year are a huge step towards embracing technology. Additionally, with the new trades, it looks like trades for both Marvel and DC will start getting released on Tuesdays rather than Wednesdays, which is clearly a move towards the "bookstore" (as opposed to "comic shop") market.
Single issues/comic shops are pretty much doomed. It's only a matter of time.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 2, 2012 16:36:27 GMT -5
They need to get out of shops anyway. I know its a geek den...which is fun...but..its a geek den...which everybody else doesn't care about. ;D
Getting rid of single issues entirely...I'm not so sure about. They should be around as cheap disposable entertainment for kids. But you shouldn't be forced to buy every issue to get the whole story. They should be self contained. Forcing people to buy a comic every week from various different titles and never stopping is whats fucked the industry.
The industry has to bring in kids as well as young adults. Thats the main thing. Without kids its going to be tough.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Feb 2, 2012 17:00:10 GMT -5
There haven't been kids buying comics since...well...probably since we were kids. My last go-around in a comic shop was about 6 years ago. We had a steady clientele, the best shop in town, and the average age of our pull-list customers was mid-20s. We had PLENTY of kids in the shop...who were all buying YuGiOh cards, despite my best efforts.
And why SHOULD kids buy comics? Single issues are FOUR BUCKS a pop, and they take about four minutes to read these days. It's no contest between that and a pack of YuGiOh cards which have the potential for immediate value, trade-ins, and play value. For the price of one comic storyline, spread over 8 issues or whatever, (which will take about thirty minutes to read) kids can buy a video game (which will take, on average, thirty HOURS to complete).
I'm a comic loyalist. I LOVE single issues. But the industry shot itself in the foot. The comic industry right now is like the music industry in the late 90s. They refused to adapt, and the panic has set in. They did it to themselves. Between rising prices, endless crossovers, and "writing for the trade" they've de-incentivized single issue buying for all but the obsessive freaks (like me).
I'm willing to bet that within five years, most single issue books will be a thing of the past. Some will still be published as a token thing, but for the most part, the shift to trades and digital is on. The five million books that I estimate this Watchmen nonsense will sell may push it back an additional year or so.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 2, 2012 17:33:37 GMT -5
There haven't been kids buying comics since...well...probably since we were kids. My last go-around in a comic shop was about 6 years ago. We had a steady clientele, the best shop in town, and the average age of our pull-list customers was mid-20s. We had PLENTY of kids in the shop...who were all buying YuGiOh cards, despite my best efforts. And why SHOULD kids buy comics? Single issues are FOUR BUCKS a pop, and they take about four minutes to read these days. It's no contest between that and a pack of YuGiOh cards which have the potential for immediate value, trade-ins, and play value. For the price of one comic storyline, spread over 8 issues or whatever, (which will take about thirty minutes to read) kids can buy a video game (which will take, on average, thirty HOURS to complete). I'm a comic loyalist. I LOVE single issues. But the industry shot itself in the foot. The comic industry right now is like the music industry in the late 90s. They refused to adapt, and the panic has set in. They did it to themselves. Between rising prices, endless crossovers, and "writing for the trade" they've de-incentivized single issue buying for all but the obsessive freaks (like me). I'm willing to bet that within five years, most single issue books will be a thing of the past. Some will still be published as a token thing, but for the most part, the shift to trades and digital is on. The five million books that I estimate this Watchmen nonsense will sell may push it back an additional year or so. Thats my point. Kids DON'T read. And yeah kids haven't bought comics en mass in 20 years. But hoping adults will stave off the decline in comics is just silly. Wny would adults OR kids read comics when they can just go see the movie...which is a heck of a lot more cool than a comic. Just like with kids adults have more stuff competing with comics for their attention. The adult readership is only going to continue to dwindle. When people have rent, car payments, cel phone, payments, groceries, girlfriends, weddings and kids of their own to pay for who has time or money for disposable entertainment like comics? Will all those same people be reading comics in ten years? Probably not. Kids these days have more disposable income. Don't have to worry about paying for other stuff. Like I said if kids read Harry Potter BOOKS in droves then they should have the attention span to read a thin magazine. They need to be made CHEAPER though. I'm pretty sure I said that. And publisher's need to do whatever to appeal to kids. For comics to survive it needs a NEW turnover of readers every so often. And thats not going to happen with a dwindling aging group of 20 and 30 somethings. Fresh blood needs to be brought into the readership pool. Otherwise the industries decline will only happen sooner. Digital comics need to happen but that offers its own set of problems. Like piracy. heck thats already being done with paper and ink comics being scanned and put online. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 4, 2012 12:37:04 GMT -5
Coming from someone who grew up in the 70's and was reading about the death of comic books THEN...
* Comic books won't die-
BUT.... in its single issue printed form, possibly. Much as newspapers haven't died, but shrunk- and are brochure size now. (On the plus side, it's probably saving a heckuva lot of trees...)
* Watchmen diluted by these abominations?
Yes- BUT....
So do horrible sequels and prequels to great movies. If an audience member experiences the sequel/prequel first before the 'original'..... definitely it can.
However, oddly-
I do find that fantastic sequels and prequels CAN enhance originals. I thought (and still do think) X-men 3 was terrible terrible...... but (even though they didn't pre-plan it) X-men Origins makes it unintentionally more interesting by having a great backstory for Hank/Beast and Mystique.
So, the reverse CAN happen..... although I'm pretty certain (as this was discussed with Moore years ago) that no sequels/prequels were ever planned. Moore discussed a 'maybe' with the Minutemen, but that's it.
* Comics have been dying out--- particularly for kids because of a multitude of reasons.
When I was growing up, the dying was due to sales, of course--- but it didn't have to compete with the internet, dvds, and videogames (pong and videohockey were the primary games of the videogame day)....
The 'plus' side to comics, if they are dying now-
#1: The success of the movie properties alone- hopefully should keep SOME comics going, or at least subsidized.
#2: The giant amount of silver and bronze age comics reprinted in hardback and other collections now make the best of the best far more available than when the ONLY way to read these were the back issue bins and deteriorating comic books.
The reprints may have dulled the back issue market, but more people can at least read and share these. (The same can be said for the internet.....BUT..... in those cases, I doubt stories gotten for free are valued nearly as much--- or maybe not even read, but put aside).
Anyhow....
If it dies, it lasted far, far, far longer than I thought it would. And there's still a ton of old stories from the silver/bronze age I HAVEN'T read yet, so if there is never another comic made, there's still a ton of stuff in the past to catchup on, imo....
Or maybe Comicon- with all its riches (funny how it's called a non-profit. SOMEBODY is making a giant giant fortune) could keep comics in print alive.
Will see...
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ShogunLogan
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Post by ShogunLogan on Feb 4, 2012 18:37:32 GMT -5
Well, this INSPIRED Moby Dick:  And "Jaws" was as close to a remake/revamping of "Moby Dick" as you can get. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 4, 2012 21:21:33 GMT -5
There wasn't really that long running obsession except for Quint. Quints story about surviving sailors at sea being preyed on by sharks was actually a true story.
If anything the Jaws shark and its kin were "Ahab." They wanted revenge on the Brody family for what they did. ;D
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Jun 14, 2012 12:19:52 GMT -5
So...anyone actually reading these so far. Only Minutemen #1 and Silk Spectre #1 are out at the moment. But, I actually really enjoyed them. We will see if quality will maintain.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jun 14, 2012 12:57:38 GMT -5
The DC reboot will be a year old in a few months, it's still going s trong, DC's sales are better than ever across the board, and they haven't even released the first wave of trades yet. Was it a stunt? Absolutely. But it's working, and I think it's gonna continue to work. And the fact that there's no reset button being pushed anytime soon is proof of their commitment to it. I guess this Watchmen nonsense was the only way to top that.
So, in the grander scheme of things, DC's current numbers are solid, if not spectacular. Viewed over the 110 months we have consistent data on, April 2012 is No. 63 in average DC Universe unit sales, No. 34 in total DC Universe unit sales and No. 30 in total DCU dollar sales. Compared with DC's boom period from about 2005 through 2007, these numbers are low, but they hold up well against weaker years like 2003 or the first half of 2011. All told, the "New 52" seems to have stabilized DC's sales right in the middle of the spectrum.
Whether or not that's good or bad, given the massive logistical and promotional efforts and incentives that went into the "New 52" relaunch (limited returnability, deep discounts, multiple variant-cover editions) is a matter of interpretation. The good news is that DC managed to boost and stabilize its line after a very tough couple of years. The bad news is that DC took its best shot and it bought them a reset to 2010, basically. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 14, 2012 21:08:39 GMT -5
So...anyone actually reading these so far. Only Minutemen #1 and Silk Spectre #1 are out at the moment. But, I actually really enjoyed them. We will see if quality will maintain. I'm not reading them. The only one I'm remotely interested in is Minutemen, but I won't pay for it. I really have no interest in this project. |
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ShogunLogan
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Post by ShogunLogan on Jun 18, 2012 16:08:05 GMT -5
I'm buying them but probably won't start reading them until I get the series in total.
I would be massively SHOCKED if they sell 100,000 copies each.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 18, 2012 22:41:39 GMT -5
I think most of them will. Frankly, I find the entire thing distasteful. I read Minutemen #1 (thanks to a friend) and found it to be thoroughly dull and pedestrian...and this is almost certainly going to be the best title of the bunch. These are the comic book equivalent of the Star Wars prequels. Garbage with a high-class brand name.
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ShogunLogan
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Post by ShogunLogan on Jun 19, 2012 8:52:17 GMT -5
The most copies the original series sold was 40,000 copies...that was issue #4.
No chance any of these hits 100K.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 19, 2012 9:20:15 GMT -5
I hope you're right. These don't deserve to sell shit.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 12, 2012 16:06:26 GMT -5
The most copies the original series sold was 40,000 copies...that was issue #4. No chance any of these hits 100K. You were saying? 5 Before Watchmen Minutemen 1 107,517 6 Before Watchmen Comedian 1 104,143 7 Before Watchmen Silk Spectre 1 102,958 8 Before Watchmen Nite Owl 1 101,290 |
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cypher85
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Post by cypher85 on Jul 13, 2012 7:18:12 GMT -5
The ozymandias issue was really good. I really enjoyed it. Jae Lee's art is pretty freaking awesome. I think this is the first thing he's drawn that I have read.
And all of the issues have been serviceable and fairly enjoyable. Though I personally thought Comedian and Night Owl were hands down the worst of the bunch so far.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 13, 2012 7:25:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I still have zero interest in this, except for the Darwyn Cooke stuff. When the trades are out, and the library has 'em, I might give them a look. But for the most part, I just get such a hacky, cynical vibe from this entire project that I'd need a shower if I paid for one.
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ShogunLogan
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Post by ShogunLogan on Jul 18, 2012 13:18:50 GMT -5
The most copies the original series sold was 40,000 copies...that was issue #4. No chance any of these hits 100K. You were saying? 5 Before Watchmen Minutemen 1 107,517 6 Before Watchmen Comedian 1 104,143 7 Before Watchmen Silk Spectre 1 102,958 8 Before Watchmen Nite Owl 1 101,290 Ummmmmmmmmmm.... See, that is why I still have my current job. |
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