atp
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Post by atp on Aug 9, 2014 2:20:22 GMT -5
If Donner had not been fired, do you think he and Reeve could have made a long series of good Superman movies?
Or would the quality have inevitably started going downhill, the way the Bond films did?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 9, 2014 10:25:07 GMT -5
It would have undoubtedly declined at some point but not as bad as the actual series quality declined. I think Donner would have directed two maybe three films and if they'd continued beyond that he would have handed the reigns to someone else and produced.
One things for sure. His superman III would have been better than the one we got.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 10, 2014 9:53:53 GMT -5
If Donner had not been fired, do you think he and Reeve could have made a long series of good Superman movies? Or would the quality have inevitably started going downhill, the way the Bond films did? Donner mostly stayed VERY true to the comics in terms of look and the spirit of the characters. He was handed the Puzo script and much of the camp elements (although I still maintain his humorous version of Luthor played off BRILLIANTLY against his serious version of the Phantom Zone criminals in SII)- so he was a bit 'stuck' with a humorous Luthor.... and even then, when Hackman refused to shave his head, Donner tried to find a way to get Luthor bald as he was in the comics. He said he would have mined the comics for much of the material, and I believe him. With Mank also in love with the material, we probably would have gotten a Mank/Donner version of Brainiac, Kandor, Supergirl, Parasite, maybe even a touch of the Legion. What kills me is that while the tech is here NOW to do everything, only a few directors know how to handle balancing the best of human and story elements with the sfx tech tools. Donner leans at times towards sentimmentality, but also towards great action set pieces --- Superman would have been a great continuing fit for him. I definitely think that Donner would have made an excellent string of films, if he chose to come back after S3 (and I'm sure Reeve would have come back, he wanted Donner for S4) As far as the Lois/Superman relationship, though--- I'm not sure how Donner would have handled it. He probably would have been fine bringing in Lana, but if the Lois/Superman love story got played out in two movies, I'm not sure where he would have gone next with it....
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 10, 2014 10:02:25 GMT -5
On a related note: How cool would it have been for Donner to come back after S3, and just 'absorb' the continuity that Lester put in?
The closest situation I can/could think of is with Singer going back to the Xmen movies- absorbing Ratner's "Last Stand"- and making the best of it.
With S2/S3, Donner would have had to absorb the 'memory kiss', but on the plus side, he would have been able to work with Annette O'Toole setup at the Daily Planet already.
I have a weird hunch, though, that Mank sounded a little 'stuck' with what to do next with Lois/Superman's relationship, though.
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 2, 2014 22:13:43 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't think Donner and Mankiewicz would have gone further than Superman II. They both endured a long and drown out task by making a two-part epic that encapsulated the character's history. They didn't seem the type to want to bring in Supergirl, Brainiac, Mxyztplk or any other characters from the Superman mythos to the big screen. They certainly would have wanted nothing to do with a film featuring Richard Pryor, which was only summoned because the Salkinds heard he wanted to be in Superman movie on Johnny Carson. I think Donner was just doing some wishful thinking when me mentioned the "ideas" Mank and him had for the sequels, including having Mank direct them.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2014 3:27:02 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't think Donner and Mankiewicz would have gone further than Superman II. They both endured a long and drown out task by making a two-part epic that encapsulated the character's history. They didn't seem the type to want to bring in Supergirl, Brainiac, Mxyztplk or any other characters from the Superman mythos to the big screen. They certainly would have wanted nothing to do with a film featuring Richard Pryor, which was only summoned because the Salkinds heard he wanted to be in Superman movie on Johnny Carson. I think Donner was just doing some wishful thinking when me mentioned the "ideas" Mank and him had for the sequels, including having Mank direct them. It's true that Donner could have been just wishful thinking out loud... but... At the same time.... given that (it seems) how much Donner seemed to have been suprised how much he fell in love with the project once he got involved--- and how Mank didn't really (I don't think) have ANY directing credits under his belt at this time--- so the opportunity might have been too good to pass up to write/direct Superman III following a Donner Superman II. Also- it was the first mega-success right after the mega-success of Omen for Donner. Since Donner had pretty much 'created' the universe design-wise from the ground up- it's not inconceivable that he could have seen himself as a George Lucas of the Superman franchise before it got tainted. The burden of making an interesting story past SII would have been on Mank's large shoulders. I think he could have done it. An example would be how hard it was for Donner to let go of the Lethal Weapon franchise. Once he fell in love with the characters he helped shape- it looks like he's happy as a clam doing sequels. In any case- again.... just sad he didn't get to finish the second part of his epic, even now....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 3, 2014 12:04:56 GMT -5
I really could see Mank directing third. It really depends on how good their ideas were and what WB offered them if the Salkinds were out of the equation.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 3, 2014 15:02:38 GMT -5
I really could see Mank directing third. It really depends on how good their ideas were and what WB offered them if the Salkinds were out of the equation. I would imagine if they were able to 'kick out'/payoff the Salkinds for part two and retain Donner- that they (hopefully) would have let Donner/Mank steer the ship, considering how much the property just sat there for decades and how Donner made all the right creative choices to bring it alive. Considering how (mostly) faithful Donner kept to the comics visually- (Lois Lane not being a redhead/ Superman's suit and the 's' curl/ Lex being bald/ Jimmy and the bowtie)--- I imagine both Mank and Donner might have embraced Supergirl/ Kandor/ Brainiac. Imagining how Donner might have cast Supergirl- (Maybe it still would have been Slater? Hard to know- though Lynn Stalmaster was still utilized, so...) and Brainiac is fun to think about...
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 5, 2014 15:13:44 GMT -5
Yeah, they might have, but I also think they factored in just how complex that project was to pull it off. Think at the end of it all, they would have realized just how good they did it the first time and that there really was no need to follow up. Still wishing that they would have been able to develop the treatment Ilya Salkind had for Superman III. It had a good scope, but needed a real writer to properly polish it up. I still can't believe that Warners and DC turned down this potential for a story and said yes to what we eventually got with Superman III and Supergirl.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 6, 2014 4:21:50 GMT -5
Yeah, they might have, but I also think they factored in just how complex that project was to pull it off. Think at the end of it all, they would have realized just how good they did it the first time and that there really was no need to follow up. Still wishing that they would have been able to develop the treatment Ilya Salkind had for Superman III. It had a good scope, but needed a real writer to properly polish it up. I still can't believe that Warners and DC turned down this potential for a story and said yes to what we eventually got with Superman III and Supergirl. I think at that point- Superman was such a miracle to pull off--- that having the films turn out great was a big suprise--- if it wasn't for seeing how Donner stuck around for multiple Lethal Weapon films, I'd feel less confident that he probably would have wanted to ride the train a few more times. If in an alternate universe where Donner stayed, and the Salkinds paid off by WB... Superman III - (and this is all of course 100 percent guesswork): * Mank as screenwriter as well as director- * Lana Lang as the new love interest- but this time well written and more serious than the Lester SIII version * Supergirl may or may not have been an element- as well as Brainiac * Hackman as Luthor probably makes an appearance * Not sure how they handle Lois' character given how played out her storyline is/was in the first two films
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