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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2015 0:56:12 GMT -5
Always helps to see this film with young relatives that haven't grown cynical if at all possible--
Anyhow- Though I've been obsessing about SII and rewatching the two versions forever... I haven't watched STM in a long while-
Saw the 2006 extended cut, and....
Refreshed thoughts came out on it:
1. The culmination of EVERYTHING really has a special tone to it. It starts off with the intense scenes with the criminals and the council- but the 'slow' parts in the beginning with Smallville & the Fortress really help nail how serious Donner took the material. When it gets to Metropolis and it's a 'comic book' movie- it still has an epic feel from starting from all these scenes. If the movie had just started in Metropolis, (as Lois and Clark did) it would not have the feeling of something epic without those scenes.
(Even though Batman Begins and Spiderman have used STM as an inspiration, those two don't feel as epic, either- despite having the advantage of improved and cheaper fx tech).
2. Yes, some of the effects have not aged well at all.... but the practical ones on location and in large sets really dazzle from how Donner shot them. Speaking of which- knowing the behind the scenes stories on all the headaches with each of the flying scenes, it's amazing looking at all the effort put into even what would seem some of the tiniest scenes (i.e. the rescue of the cat in the tree).
3. It really is some of the most beautiful John Williams music ever. I'm glad that Williams seems to place this as one of his higher accomplishments, given his gigantic film resume.
4. The location shooting, again, gives such a feeling of authenticity to the piece that it's amazing. (Smartly used also in The Dark Knight to great advantage I thought).
5. The amount of 'polish' there is to almost every frame. Even in the less interesting scenes (i.e. Luthor), the art direction and cinematography makes each bit a wonder to view again.
At the very end- Yeah..... it brings back the old pain of how much SII got undermined in so many areas by Lester's direction. I can somewhat sympathize if they wanted to scale back the budget- but everything again just looks so.... cheap, outside of the Donner shot bits. Ah well.
At least Donner got to complete the first one completely his way and half of SII, and we got to see a good chunk of it. Ah well...
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crown
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Post by crown on Mar 17, 2015 3:49:08 GMT -5
Yeah Donner's SII was only 50% complete. I don't care that 70% of the script was shot... on the screen it's clear that Donner only had 1/2 the film.
What I wouldn't do to go into an alternate reality to see what Donner's SII could have been.. a few tantalizing glimpses in 06 was all we got.
I agree there is nothing so epic as watching STM from beginning to end.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2015 10:40:50 GMT -5
Yeah Donner's SII was only 50% complete. I don't care that 70% of the script was shot... on the screen it's clear that Donner only had 1/2 the film. What I wouldn't do to go into an alternate reality to see what Donner's SII could have been.. a few tantalizing glimpses in 06 was all we got. I agree there is nothing so epic as watching STM from beginning to end. Nowadays, I find it's hard to stick with rewatching an older film from beginning to end unless I'm watching with someone else. Too little time, too many alternative sources of entertainment if I do- So, yeah..... it has to be a complete viewing. The steady pace and the nuances of the acting really sticks out. It's disheartening to have read that Donner (according to Thau) kept pushing for 'faster faster' takes in the RDC rather than go with the pacing of the original. Donner was in his prime not just with Superman, but with a number of his other films around that same time period as well- maybe no coincidence that his editor Stuart Baird was with him for a good part of it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2015 10:46:04 GMT -5
Addendum: Forgot to mention the down side to reviewing STM was the use of San Andreas' fault line- Living in California and reading reports of a 95% likelihood of a major earthquake eventually happening and the movie being about 30 years old?
Gives a bit of a jolt when viewing those scenes now- and little relief when Supes saves the day, since it is a real concern and not a fictional one.
Though.... apparently this worry doesn't stop Hollywood from making a movie JUST about the fault. *sigh*
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 17, 2015 13:58:51 GMT -5
I actually think STM is at its best before Superman shows up!
The Krypton and Smallville parts are total perfection for me.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2015 14:46:45 GMT -5
I actually think STM is at its best before Superman shows up! The Krypton and Smallville parts are total perfection for me. I hear you- I loved how serious both Kyrpton & Smallville sections were taken on my first view and was a bit disappointed when it got so much lighter/campier when we got to Metropolis- and at the time was kind of hoping/wishing that the whole movie was taken serious from front to back--- (Successfully pulled off in the The Dark Knight imo- though a failure in TDKR- go figure). But in viewing STM and SII- (even though altered by Lester)- I could see how Donner & Mank's juggling of different tones would have come together perfectly by the end of SII.... the darkness of the criminals with Lex's ridiculousness with Supes/Lois' romantic comedy. Singer's tackling of the same (on the surface) schizo parts is interesting- but really needed a second film to smooth out much of what was rough in the slightly confusing backstory in SR.
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crown
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Post by crown on Mar 17, 2015 15:03:03 GMT -5
But in viewing STM and SII- (even though altered by Lester)- I could see how Donner & Mank's juggling of different tones would have come together perfectly by the end of SII.... the darkness of the criminals with Lex's ridiculousness with Supes/Lois' romantic comedy. This is 1000% true. Evryone who says STM didn't have a real threat in Lex and was too lovely dove with Lois and had no action in it needs to understand what Donner was going to do with Zod and Co. in SII. Just look at the moon and white house scenes back to back (nixing the retarded East Houston crap) and you'll see how creepy and evil the two part saga would have ended up being. Also the best bit of the Donner cut is the restoration of the Fortress confrontation... Zod seems so evil here especially Ursa (love that we finally got to see her initial grabbing and strangling of Lois) and even Non is badass throwing down Supes like a rag doll. If only we had more Donner villain footage... like the Ursa screen-test.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 18, 2015 2:57:32 GMT -5
This is 1000% true. Evryone who says STM didn't have a real threat in Lex and was too lovely dove with Lois and had no action in it needs to understand what Donner was going to do with Zod and Co. in SII. Just look at the moon and white house scenes back to back (nixing the retarded East Houston crap) and you'll see how creepy and evil the two part saga would have ended up being. Also the best bit of the Donner cut is the restoration of the Fortress confrontation... Zod seems so evil here especially Ursa (love that we finally got to see her initial grabbing and strangling of Lois) and even Non is badass throwing down Supes like a rag doll. If only we had more Donner villain footage... like the Ursa screen-test. Agreed. The artistry of the filmmaking on the moon and white house scenes (and part of the DP attack) outshines so much of the lazy Lester work that it's just.... sad. Still, at least we got 50% of what Donner intended. Better than none.
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 18, 2015 9:59:35 GMT -5
This is 1000% true. Evryone who says STM didn't have a real threat in Lex and was too lovely dove with Lois and had no action in it needs to understand what Donner was going to do with Zod and Co. in SII. Just look at the moon and white house scenes back to back (nixing the retarded East Houston crap) and you'll see how creepy and evil the two part saga would have ended up being. Also the best bit of the Donner cut is the restoration of the Fortress confrontation... Zod seems so evil here especially Ursa (love that we finally got to see her initial grabbing and strangling of Lois) and even Non is badass throwing down Supes like a rag doll. If only we had more Donner villain footage... like the Ursa screen-test. Yes, definitely agree with this. It gives a different perspective when you remember that STM and S2 are one long story. So the ending of STM is not really and "ending" but is just the middle of the story.
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crown
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Post by crown on Mar 18, 2015 15:14:39 GMT -5
Yes, definitely agree with this. It gives a different perspective when you remember that STM and S2 are one long story. So the ending of STM is not really and "ending" but is just the middle of the story. So what is the true ending of the saga? Didn't a man named Selutron make a proper ending?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 20, 2015 0:28:25 GMT -5
Yes, definitely agree with this. It gives a different perspective when you remember that STM and S2 are one long story. So the ending of STM is not really and "ending" but is just the middle of the story. Right..... though the sad thing is how truly anticlimactic the cliffhanger would have made the 2 1/2 hour movie had it been put on.... however, it definitely makes STM have a much nicer 'bookend' since it opens with the criminals. In the original script, STM even has the closing of the comic book at the end of this. If WB and Donner decided to leave the cliffhanger, then Donner got fired- we would have forever lost that nice sequence of Supes screaming and seeing his father in the clouds. If the time reversal would have been restored to SII--- one big thing missing is Supes' motivation- according to Spengler, Supes is so torn up about the devastation around the world, (and all the implied deaths) it motivates him to reverse time. Still wouldn't have made a heckuva lot of sense, but it's mainly Puzo to thank for that annoying plot device.....
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Post by stargazer0118 on Mar 21, 2015 12:32:32 GMT -5
I actually think STM is at its best before Superman shows up! The Krypton and Smallville parts are total perfection for me. Agreed!
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Post by stargazer0118 on Mar 21, 2015 12:34:04 GMT -5
Always helps to see this film with young relatives that haven't grown cynical if at all possible-- Anyhow- Though I've been obsessing about SII and rewatching the two versions forever... I haven't watched STM in a long while- Saw the 2006 extended cut, and.... Refreshed thoughts came out on it: 1. The culmination of EVERYTHING really has a special tone to it. It starts off with the intense scenes with the criminals and the council- but the 'slow' parts in the beginning with Smallville & the Fortress really help nail how serious Donner took the material. When it gets to Metropolis and it's a 'comic book' movie- it still has an epic feel from starting from all these scenes. If the movie had just started in Metropolis, (as Lois and Clark did) it would not have the feeling of something epic without those scenes. (Even though Batman Begins and Spiderman have used STM as an inspiration, those two don't feel as epic, either- despite having the advantage of improved and cheaper fx tech). 2. Yes, some of the effects have not aged well at all.... but the practical ones on location and in large sets really dazzle from how Donner shot them. Speaking of which- knowing the behind the scenes stories on all the headaches with each of the flying scenes, it's amazing looking at all the effort put into even what would seem some of the tiniest scenes (i.e. the rescue of the cat in the tree). 3. It really is some of the most beautiful John Williams music ever. I'm glad that Williams seems to place this as one of his higher accomplishments, given his gigantic film resume. 4. The location shooting, again, gives such a feeling of authenticity to the piece that it's amazing. (Smartly used also in The Dark Knight to great advantage I thought). 5. The amount of 'polish' there is to almost every frame. Even in the less interesting scenes (i.e. Luthor), the art direction and cinematography makes each bit a wonder to view again. At the very end- Yeah..... it brings back the old pain of how much SII got undermined in so many areas by Lester's direction. I can somewhat sympathize if they wanted to scale back the budget- but everything again just looks so.... cheap, outside of the Donner shot bits. Ah well. At least Donner got to complete the first one completely his way and half of SII, and we got to see a good chunk of it. Ah well... I really like Sll despite the flaws.. Zod is awesome!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 21, 2015 20:31:10 GMT -5
I love SII too - but it's just annoying when the 2nd director took most everything down a notch (and more) with his choices during half of the movie.
Sadly the RDC editing has so many bad choices by Thau, the RDC ironically overall may be a worse movie, though.
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 22, 2015 10:09:57 GMT -5
The pacing in the Smallville parts is so well done.
The film cuts immediately from clark being found as a baby to him as an 18 year old but it somehow doesnt feel abrupt. It feels like we have known the Jeff East character for years.
And Glenn Ford just had a few minutes of screen time, yet we feel like we also knew him for years. The movie jumps from him finding Clark to his death scene. Amazingly, it doesnt feel like a ridiculous jump. It feels like we have known him for years too.
That kind of history is very hard to convey in such a short time. Even more impressive that they didnt need flashbacks to establish it. Just good acting and editing.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 22, 2015 16:40:12 GMT -5
The pacing in the Smallville parts is so well done. The film cuts immediately from clark being found as a baby to him as an 18 year old but it somehow doesnt feel abrupt. It feels like we have known the Jeff East character for years. And Glenn Ford just had a few minutes of screen time, yet we feel like we also knew him for years. The movie jumps from him finding Clark to his death scene. Amazingly, it doesnt feel like a ridiculous jump. It feels like we have known him for years too. That kind of history is very hard to convey in such a short time. Even more impressive that they didnt need flashbacks to establish it. Just good acting and editing. The location shooting, the music, and the way it was shot really makes that version of Smallville feel like a whole world unto itself. By contrast, apparently the SII bit where Superman flies to the Amazon jungle to grab that flower feels like a backlot or shot in some amusement park- even though reportedly they actually sent Reeve and a second unit crew at an exotic location to grab that shot. Some directors make things look epic, others--- not so much. ;p On another note- I saw on Jim Bower's Caped Wonder site still photos from the farm that might have been used to show the passage of time- a la- Donner/Baird's work on the "Omen". Who knows if this was put in/out, but it's hard to imagine a photo montage from the car lift to transitioning to the football game.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 24, 2015 4:21:43 GMT -5
The pacing in the Smallville parts is so well done. The film cuts immediately from clark being found as a baby to him as an 18 year old but it somehow doesnt feel abrupt. It feels like we have known the Jeff East character for years. And Glenn Ford just had a few minutes of screen time, yet we feel like we also knew him for years. The movie jumps from him finding Clark to his death scene. Amazingly, it doesnt feel like a ridiculous jump. It feels like we have known him for years too. That kind of history is very hard to convey in such a short time. Even more impressive that they didnt need flashbacks to establish it. Just good acting and editing. The location shooting, the music, and the way it was shot really makes that version of Smallville feel like a whole world unto itself. By contrast, apparently the SII bit where Superman flies to the Amazon jungle to grab that flower feels like a backlot or shot in some amusement park- even though reportedly they actually sent Reeve and a second unit crew at an exotic location to grab that shot. Some directors make things look epic, others--- not so much. ;p On another note- I saw on Jim Bower's Caped Wonder site still photos from the farm that might have been used to show the passage of time- a la- Donner/Baird's work on the "Omen". Who knows if this was put in/out, but it's hard to imagine a photo montage from the car lift to transitioning to the football game. I know they went all the way to St. Lucia for that shot of Supes grabbing the flower but because Lester apparently doesn't like to actually have the camera MOVE the shot ends up looking like a cheap backlot garden shot! Shoulda better spent the money actually paying Brando!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -5
The location shooting, the music, and the way it was shot really makes that version of Smallville feel like a whole world unto itself. By contrast, apparently the SII bit where Superman flies to the Amazon jungle to grab that flower feels like a backlot or shot in some amusement park- even though reportedly they actually sent Reeve and a second unit crew at an exotic location to grab that shot. Some directors make things look epic, others--- not so much. ;p On another note- I saw on Jim Bower's Caped Wonder site still photos from the farm that might have been used to show the passage of time- a la- Donner/Baird's work on the "Omen". Who knows if this was put in/out, but it's hard to imagine a photo montage from the car lift to transitioning to the football game. I know they went all the way to St. Lucia for that shot of Supes grabbing the flower but because Lester apparently doesn't like to actually have the camera MOVE the shot ends up looking like a cheap backlot garden shot! Shoulda better spent the money actually paying Brando! Absolutely--- or- if it HAD to be a still shot, then they could have chosen an angle that could have showed off the expense. Definitely something to be said for the phrase "putting the money onscreen". Credit for effort to actually go on location. Minus points for making it look like a cheap backlot..... but same thing goes for the giant Metro battle- overly lit, with comical extras. Credit for the humongous set to replicate New York--- and then shot in a way to make it look like one big cheap set. ;p
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 26, 2015 0:27:47 GMT -5
Yeah the Metro Battle looked cheap as heck... every shot looked like a set... the roller skating man even spells it out.
In the Donner shots in the Daily Planet.. you can see a glorious red sky (Donner's battle would have left the city on FIRE and in ruins).
What could have been.....
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 26, 2015 1:02:06 GMT -5
Yeah the Metro Battle looked cheap as heck... every shot looked like a set... the roller skating man even spells it out. In the Donner shots in the Daily Planet.. you can see a glorious red sky (Donner's battle would have left the city on FIRE and in ruins). What could have been..... Absolutely. I view the other big budget disaster films of the time (King Kong comes to mind) and - while the fx may be dated - the care and expense of what the filmmakers wanted to give you still comes through, I think. While we can't see exactly what Donner would have given us, at least there's the Mank script and the helicopter rescue in STM to give a feeling of what Donner would have done. The only plus is that the fx tech is getting better so that (possibly) as the tech keeps getting better maybe someone can really do a good restoration of the rest of what Donner would have wanted and never got shot.... can always dream...
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