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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 10, 2015 20:32:32 GMT -5
www.capedwonder.com/As usual, Mr. Bowers' site keeps on giving generous gifts to the Superman movie fans. Finally Selutron's proposed ending is here--- SPOILER ALERT (?!)--- View it first-- My own feelings on it.... First impression: The thought process put into the whole is admirable (as was much of his other clips)- and is a heckuva lot better than either the memory kiss or the time reversal part II--- and the choices of course are limited as heck... But the down side is that it means you have to put aside the strange notion that Jor-el is powerful enough to reverse time through Kryptonian technology---- though---- Superman does exactly the same thing in the first movie, so.... hard to argue with. Also- it means giving up part of the exchange with Supes and Jor-el during the repowering- though with the Thau edit, generally it was considered a bit underwhelming. In any case- the edits are very nice, could not have been easy to pick and choose the music and specific pieces of dialogue, so hat's off to Selutron for that. Also, the original Puzo draft supposedly had Superman reverse time because of all the destruction, so in spirit it is the same sort of solution- but with an emotional layer of Jor-el seemingly sacrificing himself to do so... so, it works better for the most part imo- but I think the long wait to hear/see this probably built up ridiculous expectations that really couldn't be met. ... now.... I just want to see the rest of what he would have done! Other thoughts from the active two or three other members still around?
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 11, 2015 0:23:16 GMT -5
Hmmm
I honestly think that the time reversal solution only works when it is used once.
In 1978-had they gone with the original scripted ending with Superman saving Lois before she is killed in STM then the time reversal solution would have been effective in resolving Superman II.
having said that:
The emotional layers that Selutron has added to add weight to the reason for another time reversal are good. IMHO if Donner had implemented such a scenario in 1979 then I think he would have had to have re-shot the Daily Planet exchange(or maybe add a pick up shot-insert) between Clark and Lois to make it match better with this extra emotional weight that Selutron has proposed.(Clark's brief pause when Lois says "Your really super" is not enough.)
Compare that to the soulful look Supe's gives to Lois just by staring through the car window just after he has reversed time in STM-that one look encapsulates everything Supes has just done to bring the woman he loves back to life!-it is a sweet moment with just the right tone to not make it seem morbid -no need for dialogue but the look is enough to make the audience accept and emotionally comprehend what has just happened-be they kids(I know-I was was one of them!) or adults.
Whatever the controversy regarding Lester's kiss-I always felt that the emotional resonance of that scene was executed perfectly to fit the rest of Lester's narrative for SII. Lois looked like she had been through a dramatic last couple of days(discovering the identity of Supes, falling in love with him-then being involved in watching an epic confrontation-and subsequently realizing that falling in love with Supes was never going to work)-Lester understood this-effectively creating a sub character arc for Lois in Superman II-it is subtle-but it is there.
The way Donner shot that original final DP exchange between Lois and Clark-it seems to rob(or negate) everything that Lois has been through in the preceding 2 hours of the film. Now I know that is the intended effect-everyone is blissfully unaware due to the time reversal effect after all--- but that final DP scene needed something extra in terms of how Clark reacts to what has happened.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 11, 2015 1:45:41 GMT -5
Hmmm
I honestly think that the time reversal solution only works when it is used once.
In 1978-had they gone with the original scripted ending with Superman saving Lois before she is killed in STM then the time reversal solution would have been effective in resolving Superman II.
having said that:
The emotional layers that Selutron has added to add weight to the reason for another time reversal are good. IMHO if Donner had implemented such a scenario in 1979 then I think he would have had to have re-shot the Daily Planet exchange(or maybe add a pick up shot-insert) between Clark and Lois to make it match better with this extra emotional weight that Selutron has proposed.(Clark's brief pause when Lois says "Your really super" is not enough.)
Compare that to the soulful look Supe's gives to Lois just by staring through the car window just after he has reversed time in STM-that one look encapsulates everything Supes has just done to bring the woman he loves back to life!-it is a sweet moment with just the right tone to not make it seem morbid -no need for dialogue but the look is enough to make the audience accept and emotionally comprehend what has just happened-be they kids(I know-I was was one of them!) or adults.
Whatever the controversy regarding Lester's kiss-I always felt that the emotional resonance of that scene was executed perfectly to fit the rest of Lester's narrative for SII. Lois looked like she had been through a dramatic last couple of days(discovering the identity of Supes, falling in love with him-then being involved in watching an epic confrontation-and subsequently realizing that falling in love with Supes was never going to work)-Lester understood this-effectively creating a sub character arc for Lois in Superman II-it is subtle-but it is there.
The way Donner shot that original final DP exchange between Lois and Clark-it seems to rob(or negate) everything that Lois has been through in the preceding 2 hours of the film. Now I know that is the intended effect-everyone is blissfully unaware due to the time reversal effect after all--- but that final DP scene needed something extra in terms of how Clark reacts to what has happened.
Dejan, you do make some interesting points. I think that my main issue with the memory kiss is just that by all the changes Lester added with his screenwriters to Lois throughout the film- Lois comes off as such a nag and unlikeable whiner that the memory kiss idea maybe isn't that bad.... but the changes Lester made to make her more unlikeable + the slapstick of the Metro battle + the cheap way it was shot--- by that time in the film (even the first time), I just hated the whole scene. The concept isn't that bad- but given how visually beautiful all of STM was, and how schizo SII was, I probably was just too irritated with Lester by the time it came up in the film. Verisimilitude came up with a brilliant nice touch in his fan cut years ago that actually I thought 'saved' it: he had a POV 'dream' shot w/music as Lois loses all her memories of her and Supes together.... but outside of that, imo it's just a visually dull and not very gracefully executed scene. Ok idea in concept, though.... (Lester's script had Superman give her a drink of water after he used his heat vision on it, Reeve said he suggested the kiss instead). And.... after seeing the memory kiss parodied hilariously in Robot Chicken, hard to watch that scene with a straight face now.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 11, 2015 6:30:15 GMT -5
I dont like it. Two time reversals are a bad idea. Also why does jor el have to sacrifice himself just to rebuild cities and monuments? Why cant superman repair them himself?
I wish there a way to get rid of all the time reversals. It ruins STM
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 11, 2015 11:28:48 GMT -5
I dont like it. Two time reversals are a bad idea. Also why does jor el have to sacrifice himself just to rebuild cities and monuments? Why cant superman repair them himself? I wish there a way to get rid of all the time reversals. It ruins STM According to Pierre Spengler on the dvd commentary, the amount of devastation worldwide (and I assume lives lost) is what motivates Supes to turn back time initially. Given HOW limited the options have to be- what else could have been done? I know it was speculated on before: 1. Theatrical- Memory kiss 2. RDC- Exact same time reversal again (which really made no sense) 3. Just have Lois remember & neither Because of that, I did think Selutron's choice inventive- blend the story beat in the middle (which was weakly done in the RDC) and sew it together for more of an impact at the end. Selutron has a few words on his choice on Jim BOwers' website about his reasonings here: www.capedwonder.com/selutrons-superman-ii/This part stood out- "I suspect not everyone will find this a viable ending. But it appeared to offer narrative closure for the Superman two-parter. Superman learns a hard lesson. He disobeyed his father, broke the rules, and paid a very high price. But we end on a note of hope, forgiveness and redemption – and we come full circle (of course, Clark is going to pay for Lois’ pizza!!). Jor-El gives the world a Super kiss of sorts…he bids farewell to his son with a loving smile. The son becomes the father…" and "How to not end the movie on a petty act of revenge by Clark in the diner?" I don't think it's a miracle ending- but given the limitations, I think it's pretty good. I have to probably sit with it awhile. The feeling of going back to tying it into the father/son relationship I applaud as I always felt that the idea of Fathers and Sons were a strong component of what made STM work.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 11, 2015 14:33:56 GMT -5
What if lois was killed at the end of s2 and jor el sacrified himself to bring her back to life?
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 11, 2015 22:22:30 GMT -5
ATP is right. It's just another time reversal this time given emotional weight. Problem is still that we had the same thing in STM. I don't see what is wrong with a Donner cut that ends with Supes carrying the flag to the white house... it's just a 30 second Lester shot and we HEAR Superman say he was wrong and learnt his lesson.
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Post by booshman on Apr 11, 2015 23:00:20 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting to see this any time soon, does this mean that any hopes of getting WB to do this officially have been dropped?
Anyway, the clip was decent, a lot rougher a draft than his other clips, but it got the concept across. I'm not sure how I feel about Jo-El showing up outside of the Fortress, and with such power that he can offer his son a super mulligan. CAM already mentioned too that this new ending would mean the removal of Jor-El from the earlier repowering which would be a shame. The pizza scene doesn't completely do it for me here either, but there's only so much you can do with the footage you have. I think showing the world wide devistation instead of just Washington and Metropolis would help a lot, and show just how much damage the villains caused, and why it is so necessary to have it undone.
I always wondered why Sel didn't go the fanedit route and just release it himself. I reckon we can see that with the amount of unavaiable footage/ alternate takes he would need to complete his idea, it's not really possible right now. Saying that I would like to see what he could pull off by using what we have access to right now. I think a good percentage of what he was trying to incorporate could be achieved.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 11, 2015 23:39:35 GMT -5
Wasn't expecting to see this any time soon, does this mean that any hopes of getting WB to do this officially have been dropped? Anyway, the clip was decent, a lot rougher a draft than his other clips, but it got the concept across. I'm not sure how I feel about Jo-El showing up outside of the Fortress, and with such power that he can offer his son a super mulligan. CAM already mentioned too that this new ending would mean the removal of Jor-El from the earlier repowering which would be a shame. The pizza scene doesn't completely do it for me here either, but there's only so much you can do with the footage you have. I think showing the world wide devistation instead of just Washington and Metropolis would help a lot, and show just how much damage the villains caused, and why it is so necessary to have it undone. I always wondered why Sel didn't go the fanedit route and just release it himself. I reckon we can see that with the amount of unavaiable footage/ alternate takes he would need to complete his idea, it's not really possible right now. Saying that I would like to see what he could pull off by using what we have access to right now. I think a good percentage of what he was trying to incorporate could be achieved. I admire Selutron's ambition to try to get WB to do this officially.... though I think at times his posts on youtube were written in a way that may have not been very diplomatic to the RDC producers, which probably didn't help. Still.... I always raised an eyebrow on the use of the Swarm integrated into a professional recut. Although it was a WB film, too--- it seems like it could have opened up a can of worms (or more money) using Jason Robards (even though he fit in great).... if the Brando estate had to be paid a certain amount of $$$- would WB have to do the same for the other stars included? Anyhow- it's sad but not totally unexpected that WB just really won't put more money into going back to SII- I've mentioned my desire that WB at least release the ABC/International cut of SII in dvd quality like Superboy was released.... on a situation where the dvd is made on demand & reduce costs.... but, again, I guess we can all just consider ourselves lucky we got as much as we did. Hopefully WB or some fan working there can eventually get the ok to release clips and bits in HQ on youtube or something down the line, if the raw footage is going to forever sit there, though. But, I guess there's the choice to look at the bottle half-full or half empty at this stage...
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 1:16:32 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
I understand your frustration with the Lester stuff.
It is interesting that you were sceptical at the time that SII came out( I live in the UK--SII came out in 1981 over here)
I have been through the whole gamut of feelings myself.
I was blown away when I saw STM(never saw it 1978/79) and SII on a double bill in 81(aged 7):
also watched The Amazing Spiderman"-the dragons challenge" a week or 2 before
-so obviously the Superman films were in a different league!
At the time I preferred Supes II but ultimately loved both flicks-
Watching them back to back for the first time at the time - I personally think the emotional weight attached to how both films resolved their respective dramas was measured correctly for those moments in time(late 70's-early 80's).
Gotta remember this was in era before sophisticated time-travel paradoxes (pre-Back To The Future) and non-linear editing(Memento!),stylized fighting(Matrix) and CGI infested battles(Lord Of The Rings + The Star Wars prequels)
I remember being completely gobsmacked that Lois had been killed in the earthquake-I think I remember actually turning to my pop seated next to me and asking "what is Supes gonna do now?!!"-I think as a 1st time viewing experience-those few minutes when Lois was actually dead were pretty harrowing and superbly unexpected! -- the rest as they say is history!
The only thing I found disappointing with SII on that 1st viewing is that it came to an end- I did not want it to end!
It was only when I found out the history of the production when I found this site in 2001 that I became critical of SII to the point of almost not being able to watch it.
Ironically it was the release of the Donner cut in 2006 that made me re-appreciate Lester's work.
Reeve and Kidder had a natural chemistry-Donner discovered it ,initiated it and nurtured it but Lester honed it. I think the evidence for that is in SIV where Reeve and Kidder's organic affection for each other seems a bit stilted by the shoddy direction of Furie-Indeed it is only their innate ability to play off one another that holds it together for those ("non SPFX scenes) in SIV.
When you consider the little screen time that O' Toole had with Reeve(as Clark) in SIII-yet the relationship between them still came off as seeming natural-I think you can appreciate how good Lester was as a director of "implied" romantic scenes-well this is my opinion anyway !
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 12, 2015 1:47:37 GMT -5
Dejan, thanks for sharing how you viewed STM & SII--- that's amazing to have been able to experience it at that age & as a double feature- That had to have been incredible!
I saw the STM when I was older (as a teen, it was my first date, too, actually)- but had a couple of years before SII came out- and plenty of time to build up expectations through the roof. At the time, there was no internet, but there were scraps here and there in newspapers and a couple of magazines that filled my head with just how mindblowing the final battle was going to be.... so, yeah, when the Metro battle was a couple of punches- and slapstick, I was pretty upset...
The chemistry that Donner guided with Reeve and Kidder made Kidder funny and just likeable enough.... with Lester, there was a slight nudge to make her a bit unpleasant with his rewrites. Lois' mind was constantly about how Superman didn't love her enough, while in Donner's script, she was the one having a bit of fun at Clark's expense during the Honeymoon Haven scenes (the other scene never shot was pretty funny, with Lois trying to faux-seduce Clark in the hotel).
SII I think under Lester worked.... but on such a cheap level (the extended tv cuts show even worse jokes) and his Superman III under him was barely a Superman film (Maybe why Reeve didn't appear in Supergirl?) that half of SII felt painfully mediocre to me.
The chemistry with Annette O'Toole and Reeve I think has more to do with O'Toole's natural charm than Lester's direction--- in the interviews, she really showed off a love for the Superman character and I can't think of a film where she was in that she didn't stand out. Maybe it's me not giving Lester enough credit- but I do have to say that Lester's "Three Musketeers" is sheer genius and the many reboots have not held a candle to it.... but it's definitely a broadly comedic flavor- not one that made you want to believe with a heavy heart in a fantasy.... which, again, made Donner perfect for this kind of story.
The lack of chemistry with Reeve and Kidder on Superman IV I imagine is/was probably due to age + Reeve's frustration with the budget cut & lagging career & the two of them not clicking as people behind the scenes. I don't know but imagine poor Sydney Furie probably feeling pressure from the budget cut, Reeve's need for Superman IV to be a success, and knowing he had to compromise on every level and having a cast that was looking a bit old to be playing the parts they were playing, outside of Reeve.
But- anyhow- this is just my opinion, too. That's the fun part about films. Can be passionate about it, have differing opinions on it, and it never has to get ugly. Doesn't have to be. There's enough ugliness in real life imo..
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 12, 2015 1:58:05 GMT -5
STM and S2 are like a jigsaw. There are certain "pieces" that are good, but I don't believe they have yet been put together in the best way.
- Lois dies - Superman gives up powers - Superman regains powers - Jor El sacrifices himself
The trick is figuring out how best to use these. Preferably with NO time reversal in either movie.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 3:00:27 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
No worries!-to have experienced STM in 1978 had to have been even more incredible. I think I may have seen the trailer for STM on the Mary Poppins re-run in late 78' early 79'.
It is interesting in terms of how we calibrate the movie experience-in terms of age and other factors. I distinctly remember watching the Incredible Hulk TV series and then that Spiderman Movie(in the local cinema) just before watching the Supes double bill.
Don't get me wrong-I loved the Hulk and Spiderman stuff-now was that because I was 6 years old or because Hulk and Spiderman were well crafted TV/ episodes/flicks(especially for the time). Had I been older(say 25) at that moment in time(1981)-would I have seen through the shoddy effects work, cheap production budgets and script plot holes that were inherent in these TV flicks--in much the same way I can be critical of watching CGI laden flicks now-aged 41(hecko Man Of Steel et al -where the action dictates the story-rather than the story dictating the action.
But watching both STM and SII on that big screen and back to back-they were epic!(at least compared to what I had experienced until that point and age in my life)-and ultimately I would say-a very emotionally satisfying one(Time reversals and memory wiping kisses and all!)
I would actually go back to watch Supes II in 1982 in a one off showing at our local arts cinema. The place was packed(mostly with adults) and I will always remember the applause when Supes arrives on the DP ledge to challenge Zod--same thing happened on the double bill a year or so before(even though I remember the crowd being sparse-I could just here the echoey clapping of the few people in attendance-lol)---so it had to have resonated with audiences for that moment in time.
I agree about the liberty to have opinions -there may be indeed no right or wrong-there is only opinion-and memories-ideally good ones--and when it comes to the 1st two Supes films-I have plenty of those!
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 12, 2015 3:19:48 GMT -5
So Jor-El sacrifices himself to turn back time---to before he died---- so he stays alive then???...
And how the heck does Sel think that there is so much unused Superman footage to plug the (many) gaps in this sequence? Is there really a lot of close ups of Superman looking sad? Maybe he'd have to use Routh for those inserts since he always looked sad lol.
I just wish this sequence had at least been completed. I had no idea it would be so rough.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 4:43:41 GMT -5
STM and S2 are like a jigsaw. There are certain "pieces" that are good, but I don't believe they have yet been put together in the best way. - Lois dies - Superman gives up powers - Superman regains powers - Jor El sacrifices himself The trick is figuring out how best to use these. Preferably with NO time reversal in either movie.
Time reversal is the effect-the cause is Lois's death. IMHO the only thing that held it together was Lois's death.
Without her death-time reversal is wrong, meaningless and as Mank said all those years back-it would be like the icing on the cake that runs and runs-which is basically what you have in the Donner Cut at the moment.
Take out Lois's death and there would be no need for time reversal. But without Lois's death you lack that dramatic climax(as Spengler rightly says in the commentary)
Supes II had an epic climax(Metrolpolis fight)-not an emotional one(e.g Lois's death).
The only thing I can think of is that if Lois was killed(and to avoid time reversal) - Supes could have kissed her(kiss of life) rather like what happens in Matrix 1 + 2. But god knows----there was a lot of criticism of those 2 films with regards to that particular solution(especially the 2nd one ) :)I think there is a clip in the making of the 1st Matrix where Keanu Reeves is lambasting the Wachowskis for introducing the kiss that brings him back to life.
Time travel eh?! As Sarah Connor once said "God-think I could go crazy thinking about this!"
On edit I kinda forgot that Neo massages Trinity's heart in Reload-maybe that is what Supes could have done to Lois in STM
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 4:46:06 GMT -5
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 12, 2015 7:25:54 GMT -5
One thing that may have worked would be for Lois to die in STM. But instead of turning back the world, Superman brings her back to life (kiss of life) by giving up his powers.
Of course, with that scenario, Superman would be powerless at the end of STM so he would not put Luthor and Otis in jail.
And there would be no Lois discovering his secret in S2.
Also, Superman would be absent for most of S2.
Probably would create more problems than it solves, but I still like the idea of giving up his powers to give Lois her life back.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 8:07:33 GMT -5
One thing that may have worked would be for Lois to die in STM. But instead of turning back the world, Superman brings her back to life (kiss of life) by giving up his powers. Of course, with that scenario, Superman would be powerless at the end of STM so he would not put Luthor and Otis in jail. And there would be no Lois discovering his secret in S2. Also, Superman would be absent for most of S2. Probably would create more problems than it solves, but I still like the idea of giving up his powers to give Lois her life back.
I agree with you ATP:
From a fan editor's point of view -- If you could some how manipulate the footage of Supes as he gives that quick peck to the dead Lois-and somehow figure out how Lois would react as she come back to life + how to get the footage(manipulated or stock) to make it work then you might be onto something!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 12, 2015 12:46:44 GMT -5
One thing that may have worked would be for Lois to die in STM. But instead of turning back the world, Superman brings her back to life (kiss of life) by giving up his powers. Of course, with that scenario, Superman would be powerless at the end of STM so he would not put Luthor and Otis in jail. And there would be no Lois discovering his secret in S2. Also, Superman would be absent for most of S2. Probably would create more problems than it solves, but I still like the idea of giving up his powers to give Lois her life back. True.... that's a little more noble than the idea of Superman giving up his powers and sacrificing the worlds' safety because he's tired of being a virgin.... that always felt a little strange.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 12, 2015 13:12:29 GMT -5
I imagine that there is a giant chunk of raw footage/alternate takes/etc. that could take years to go through that probably could be composited- but it's doubtful WB would have let anyone other than who Donner approved of go through them all.
Selutron might have had the right idea to try to convince WB let a fan who loved the material be willing to go through all the tons of footage to put something together and go the extra mile (something the fx team who worked on the RDC didn't seem willing to do with that giant mistake with the rocket fx) to do the RDC it should have been done.
Now- it's amazing to see what so many fan editors can do with the limited amount of scraps available from the four films and the Reeve films around that era.... but if any of those fan editors got ahold of all the alternate takes from all the films and could composite them, I think the RDC could have been far better than it had been with Thau.
Though- who knows how tight a leash Thau was under? Maybe he had only 'x' amount of hours to do all the tasks he was asked to do- and there certainly was a deadline- but..... given what was already 'ready to go'- it does feel like it was just severely bad judgement almost all the way around.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 12, 2015 14:35:02 GMT -5
I saw STM in the cinema in 1978. My first eber film.
I saw S2 at the drive in in 1980 or 81. I remember everyone cheering and hooting when Superman said "General, would you care to step outside"
Incredible memories.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 12, 2015 18:52:43 GMT -5
I think any objective viewer of SII would realize that the best ending is the super kiss. It's really no more out of the blue than turning the world back and has just as much emotional depth to it.
In fact I'd say more people have problems with turning the world back than the amnesia kiss.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 13, 2015 0:04:30 GMT -5
I think any objective viewer of SII would realize that the best ending is the super kiss. It's really no more out of the blue than turning the world back and has just as much emotional depth to it. In fact I'd say more people have problems with turning the world back than the amnesia kiss. I don't mind the idea.... just wish the execution was better.
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crown
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Post by crown on Apr 13, 2015 0:23:47 GMT -5
The execution was perfect. If you can get past rat-Lois it's a really beautiful scene. Especially the exchange "Lois I don't know what to say." "Well just say you love me."
If we had had Donner's super-pretty Lois in that scene it woulda been THE BEST. -sigh-
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 13, 2015 1:21:04 GMT -5
The execution was perfect. If you can get past rat-Lois it's a really beautiful scene. Especially the exchange "Lois I don't know what to say." "Well just say you love me." If we had had Donner's super-pretty Lois in that scene it woulda been THE BEST. -sigh- I also think that scene is beautiful. Better than any of Donners break up scenes. When Clark takes his glasses off, the transformation is amazing too.
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