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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 26, 2016 13:27:45 GMT -5
I think what makes the Donner films still worth talking about decades later is the 'perfectionism' that Donner had, despite being up against all the pressures of time, money, and technology at the time. One of Donner's best 'gimmicks' that I've loved in his films were what I've heard referred to as 'oners' by Joss Whedon. That is, a single take where multiple actors and/or actions have to happen right on cue so that there's no cutaway. When Lester took over, there are some attempts to do the same, but there's rarely a bit that is as complex or memorable. Without further ado: My own favorites- (forgive if memory is flawed) 1. SUPES says goodbye to LOIS after the 'flying ballet'/turns into Clark knocking at the door. This was even mentioned in Newsweek as one of their highlights of the movie. Reeve/Supes flies away from Lois, Lois is spellbound, thinks up a name: "superman", takes a few steps, then there's a knocking at the door- it's Reeve/Clark, who is let in by Lois, who then goes to get her coat, then Reeve/Clark is about to confess who he is, Lois comes back, and they both leave the apartment.... ALL IN ONE TAKE! Amazing. 2. SII- Right after the moon attack, URSA has a closeup wondering about what's happened, then Zod walks to the center of the screen, contemplating their abilities, and the camera whirls around as Zod talks about ruling again--- originally- it's even more complex as the IRC shows the camera pull back to Ursa wanting men to kill, and all three lining up to fly away, but, still, pretty impressive even in the cut form. (God knows why Thau didn't keep the extended shot) 3. RDC- Perry White walks in with the Newspaper headline in focus, then tosses it on the table, with Lois and Jimmy present, as he walks towards his office. (Not quite as complex as the other two, but still, when one figures in the focus puller and the timing of the elements, still impressive). Were there others or other specific shots to re-honor Donner with that sticks? (I'm sure I'll recall more later).
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 26, 2016 14:12:52 GMT -5
Boy that's a tough one. Hard to think of anything specific. I guess it would have to be the single take where Superman flies away from Lois's balcony and she walks over to Clark knocking on her door. Your watching some pretty impressive film trickery and the best part is you don't even think about it. I certainly never though about how they did it when I was a kid. I was too wrapped up in the story. I've always felt the best special effects are the ones you don't even notice.
I need to watch STM and SII again to come up with anything else.
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Post by riderfan on Jan 26, 2016 18:37:40 GMT -5
Loooong time lurker, but I thought I would join in on this one. Not sure if this qualifies, but one of my favorite tracking shots is when Clark can hear Lex on high frequency. "I knew you'd never accept an invitation to tea...." The camera is OUTSIDE the Daily Planet as it follows Clark moving through the offices towards the window. The shot ends as Reeve jumps out the window and cuts to a SPX shot. But I always wondered how they did that. Did Reeve actually jump out a window onto a mat? From what storey? Or did they construct a set for that ONE particular shot? I know things like that are what ultimately got Donner fired bc the Salkinds were mad about budget etc., but to me it's things like that which make STM what it is. Lester didn't have anything like that in his sequels.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 27, 2016 13:02:21 GMT -5
Riderfan: that's right! LOVED that one, too! I totally agree.... those shots were so elaborate and inventive, it just kills, KILLS me that we didn't get a chance to see more stuff like that when Lester took over.
Even with the current superhero films, it's rare to see elaborate filmmaking shots like that. (which is extremely weird one would think with the advantages of CGI to smooth things out)
Joss Whedon had some great 'oners' in the last Avengers as well, (the single tracking shot of the Iron Legion entering the Avengers building, then getting disassembled, and up through the glass) but even with Disney behind him- on the commentary, even with Disney's power behind him, even Whedon talked about how he probably wouldn't try anything as fancy as what he had tried in Ultron filming-wise because of the time and difficulty- which makes DOnner's stuff even more impressive decades later.
Some other memorable single shots that definitely weren't the norm to take and took extra care/time to execute: (*true that it could have been second unit, but still I give Donner credit as you don't see any of this kind of stuff in SIII with Lester in charge)
STM: 1- The Smallville shot where the car of kids is riding on the left, and the small trail of smoke (young Clark) on the right getting to the Kent farm first I remember getting howls of delight at the theatre.
2- Lois (after the time-reversal) struggling with her car, and Supes/Reeve's reflection off of the window in the same frame as he lands next to her quietly.
SII: The very last pane of glass that breaks and falls over as Non breaks through the glass to Perry WHite's office.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 27, 2016 17:49:06 GMT -5
Donner was brilliant with the subtle techniques. I love her shot of him landing near Lois car and we see him through the window. It's so quiet and simple but effective. Someone sit Snyder down and make him watch it.
I love the long shot in avengers one where the camera follows each one while fighting the aliens. I'm sure there was some cgi smoothing out of that but the fact that it's one take and doesn't cut is awesome.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 1, 2016 17:22:16 GMT -5
I loved that shot in Avengers, too, even if it went by a little fast (and a little CGI-ey).
Avengers 2 I liked that Whedon attempted more 'ambitious' filmmaking, but after hearing his comment that he's going back to just 'shooting what he needs', makes me somewhat glad that the guys who did Captain America 2 are taking over for the next Avengers film...
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 2, 2016 12:56:39 GMT -5
I loved that shot in Avengers, too, even if it went by a little fast (and a little CGI-ey). Avengers 2 I liked that Whedon attempted more 'ambitious' filmmaking, but after hearing his comment that he's going back to just 'shooting what he needs', makes me somewhat glad that the guys who did Captain America 2 are taking over for the next Avengers film... Oh there is no comparison between Supes The Movie "one take" shots and the Avengers. STM oners are true physical "in camera" 1 take shots with no optical/CGI enhancements. The Avengers all in one shots are only made possible by CGI. Thats the thing with STM as far as I am concerned. I think you can almost feel the struggle to accomplish those shots wheras the slick and easy CGI cut and paste jobs that we are so accustomed to seeing now are very stylish.......but you don't sense like it was a struggle for the likes of Snyder or Whedon to create them.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 3, 2016 1:16:54 GMT -5
I stand humbled and corrected- You're 1000% right- Donner had NO CGI to fix any mistakes during a one-take, whereas there's even home software nowadays that can 'sew' and 'stitch' multiple takes together, even without CGI. Good point, good point, Dejan!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 4, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5
Later on, thinking of adding threads dissecting (why not?) the sequences that Donner/Baird did in more detail and comparing with Donner/Thau for analysis.
Anyhow: Basically, it pretty much looks like (in simple terms) Donner shot from every angle possible for many of the sequences- but Baird chose the best combination to make these flow for maximum impact.... and from different character's povs most of the time. Staged in a way most of the time that would not feel like it was shot for tv (Donner did tv for a long time) but with very clever shots- shooting off reflection, moving along with characters (but NOT shakicam), etc.
Anyhow, more later...
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 4, 2016 15:00:36 GMT -5
I stand humbled and corrected- You're 1000% right- Donner had NO CGI to fix any mistakes during a one-take, whereas there's even home software nowadays that can 'sew' and 'stitch' multiple takes together, even without CGI. Good point, good point, Dejan!
No need to feel humbled or corrected CAM!
I remember reading the old making of the Superman The Movie book by Michael Petrou. Petrou, by accident , just happened to waltz right through one of those shots in the Daily Planet (whilst they were filming)causing Donner to get stressed out.
No doubt Donner took time to assemble his shots but the quality that resulted from that equation(sacrificing time for cinematic integrity) is the reason why young and old alike happily sauntered through the The Superman The Movie section of the WonderCon last year!.....nearly 37 later.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 4, 2016 15:22:40 GMT -5
Later on, thinking of adding threads dissecting (why not?) the sequences that Donner/Baird did in more detail and comparing with Donner/Thau for analysis. Anyhow: Basically, it pretty much looks like (in simple terms) Donner shot from every angle possible for many of the sequences- but Baird chose the best combination to make these flow for maximum impact.... and from different character's povs most of the time. Staged in a way most of the time that would not feel like it was shot for tv (Donner did tv for a long time) but with very clever shots- shooting off reflection, moving along with characters (but NOT shakicam), etc. Anyhow, more later... STM is choc a block with lengthy 1 time takes.
1)Brando's "Father becomes the son "speech. 2)Ford's "one thing I know I that you are here for a reason" speech. 3)East and Thaxter "goodbye" talk in the wheat fields 4)The panning shot from behind East and Thaxter when they hug(+ John William's music) is one of my personal faves. 5)Reeve and Kidder walking through Daily Planet 6)Kidder waving good bye to Supes after "can you read my mind" all the way until Reeve takes Louis out for hamburger......this is a phenomenal shot. Reeves acting is superb here.....playing "fumbling" Clark, Clark wanting to reveal his identity and back to "fumbling" Clark again.....all in one take. Brilliant.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2016 11:33:11 GMT -5
Totally forgot the one where Clark walks with Lois after work ends- and she goes to the ladies' room and Clark continues to go to the elevator and the guy in the elevator goes, 'going UP! UP!'.... wonderful! (Not to mention.... what an incredible size set that was- from all those offices to being thorough into the restroom AND the elevator)
The thing that I didn't quite get until later on to make these shots even more impressive is all the work needed to constantly keep the moving camera in focus as well. There's no 'autofocus' mode on the cameras (even if there were- like on the home vid cam or the ipad, a movement would make it go in/out of focus).... so I can't imagine all the prep (not to mention messed up takes) for each of these.
If Donner had been able to complete the film his way, can only imagine how inventive the camera techniques would have been for the metro fight and the Niagara sequence. When one looks at the storyboards for some of the stuff for STM/SII, the footage that shows up really goes so far beyond that, amazing.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 5, 2016 18:46:40 GMT -5
Totally forgot the one where Clark walks with Lois after work ends- and she goes to the ladies' room and Clark continues to go to the elevator and the guy in the elevator goes, 'going UP! UP!'.... wonderful! (Not to mention.... what an incredible size set that was- from all those offices to being thorough into the restroom AND the elevator) The thing that I didn't quite get until later on to make these shots even more impressive is all the work needed to constantly keep the moving camera in focus as well. There's no 'autofocus' mode on the cameras (even if there were- like on the home vid cam or the ipad, a movement would make it go in/out of focus).... so I can't imagine all the prep (not to mention messed up takes) for each of these. If Donner had been able to complete the film his way, can only imagine how inventive the camera techniques would have been for the metro fight and the Niagara sequence. When one looks at the storyboards for some of the stuff for STM/SII, the footage that shows up really goes so far beyond that, amazing. Movie making is like human combustion--lots of minds and ideas coming together and collaborating for the common good. Donner had Unsworth,Barry,Bowie and Veevers for STM and they all sadly passed away not long after it was theatrically released in early 1979. So how that would have affected Donner's depiction of SII(had he been allowed to complete it in 1979) is unknown. It also makes me wonder how Lester would have accommodated the above talents had they not passed away. Food for thought. Correction: Veevers died in 1983(aged 76) so would have been available for SII in 1979(under either Lester or Donner)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 6, 2016 2:13:34 GMT -5
Donner said (either on the commentary or in an interview, can't remember as much blurs at this point) that he would have used Unsworth's assistant who was very familiar with Unsworth's work, had he been asked to return to direct.
Williams' return didn't happen because of something that was said between Lester and Williams when Ilya Salkind left them alone for a few minutes (according to a Salkind interview), but since much of Williams' music was re-used for SII but adapted by Ken Thorne, I feel like there wasn't as big a loss there-
But- the script is what suffered the most with the rewrite imo under Lester. The pieces that Donner directed had a certain tone for each of the characters.
Lester was brought in to shoot cheaper and faster- and I don't begrudge him that as much as his changing the villains into comedy schtick and just obliterating the movie's credibility (imo) by the time it got to the Metro battle. Lester could easily have scaled down Mank's script budgetwise, but kept the rest of the dynamics the same.
Oh well.... at least we got HALF of a Donner film in SII, at the very least....
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Post by riderfan on Feb 13, 2016 16:50:30 GMT -5
The only one I can think of that Lester did was the very first scene in 2 with Clark entering the Daily Planet and getting ignored by everyone. He even flips his hat onto the coat rack. Was always wondering how many takes that took......
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 14, 2016 11:54:37 GMT -5
I noticed that.... but would have been more impressed if it didn't cut before he walks into Perry's office.
Another 'soft' Lester attempt I notice was in the Honeymoon Haven, when the bellboy brings Lois and Clark into the room- but the shot doesn't ever get that ambitious, at least not on a Donner level.
I get that Lester was brought in to do things fast and cheap, but my resentment goes less towards that, but more towards making the PZ criminals saucy plate of hunky mans and ruining the seriousness of the metro battle as written by Mank by making it jokey. (though NOBODY laughed at any of the screenings I saw for the Metro battle- Even Ilya Salkind says on his commentary that if he wasn't so preoccupied by personal issues during the filming, he might have restrained Lester more.
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