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Post by ger-el on Mar 23, 2017 8:48:35 GMT -5
First post in a LONG time. I think this deserves its own thread. Over at Caped Wonder, the KCOP/Salkind Restored International Cut has been posted. It's been there since February. Just caught it now. He also has the Superman II RIC from years ago. I remember sending copies out to other fans years ago. Where does the time go.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2017 14:07:46 GMT -5
Saw that, it's very generous of Alex Serpa to do so. Also, Jim Bowers at capedwonder has a version of it as well that's linked.
I assume WB is ok with all this (or is looking the other way anyhow)?
I'd still be willing to pay for an official extended letterbox extended cut for all four films in dvd/blu quality, having said that..... (if you're listening WB..)
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Post by ger-el on Mar 23, 2017 21:07:59 GMT -5
Same here. Definitely pay to have it in HD widescreen. That and the FULL Superman IV.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 24, 2017 22:13:20 GMT -5
Same here. Definitely pay to have it in HD widescreen. That and the FULL Superman IV. With superheroes being so 'hot' on the bigscreen, one wonders why there's no attempt for 'dvd made to order' on things in their library already- Still... I guess I should be thankful that there's even a Donner cut with the Brando footage, even edited as bizzarely as it is. Wasn't a sure thing that it was going to happen in my lifetime.
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Post by Metallo on Mar 29, 2017 21:14:04 GMT -5
There is some stuff you can order from the archive but nothing that would need any proper restoration like new versions of the Superman movies would need for proper hd releases.
I'm surprised WB is ok with it myself. Maybe it's the quality or the fact that it's free but still... Companies have clamped down on things like this for less.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2017 13:05:46 GMT -5
There is some stuff you can order from the archive but nothing that would need any proper restoration like new versions of the Superman movies would need for proper hd releases. I'm surprised WB is ok with it myself. Maybe it's the quality of the fact that it's free but still... Companies have clamped down on things like this for less. Agreed. Not sure if it's kindness on any level or laziness. Either way, glad they're letting it get out there.
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Post by Metallo on Mar 30, 2017 14:36:01 GMT -5
You'd think they'd know about it. I imagine WB has people to monitor online goings on. From a pr perspective it's smart for them to leave this alone until they decide to go ahead with a similar project.
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Post by ger-el on Mar 30, 2017 18:44:43 GMT -5
Perhaps they are monitoring it and in some way using it to determine if there is money to be made in a release. Perhaps Jim Bowers even has their blessing in getting it out there...wetting everyone's appetite. We'll see soon enough I suppose.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 2, 2017 15:38:27 GMT -5
Perhaps they are monitoring it and in some way using it to determine if there is money to be made in a release. Perhaps Jim Bowers even has their blessing in getting it out there...wetting everyone's appetite. We'll see soon enough I suppose. That would make sense. I do wonder at times whether or not if the powers that be felt that the investment in the Donner Cut was ultimately a success or disappointment financially. (How on earth do you estimate ROI when it's included in the Box set and solo?) Also, the movie isn't getting any younger and the tide really seems to be moving towards streaming versus purchasing dvds/blu rays. Of course, I'm still hungry for a professional letterbox extended version of both, but who knows what percent of the population is?
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Post by Metallo on Apr 2, 2017 17:19:13 GMT -5
Something like this is for a smaller market but if done right it could be a sucess. I'd give all five donnerverse films overhauls with special editions. Extended, properly cleaned up, and restored...maybe even some improved effects (that are optional and included with the original theatrical versions). Sell them all in a boxed set and it's going to get some people's attention if marketed like a big deal. I'd say for the 40th/80th anniversary but it's too late for that.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 2, 2017 17:35:15 GMT -5
Something like this is for a smaller market but if done right it could be a sucess. I'd give all five donnerverse films overhauls with special editions. Extended, properly cleaned up, and restored...maybe even some improved effects (that are optional and included with the original theatrical versions). Sell them all in a boxed set and it's going to get some people's attention if marketed like a big deal. I'd say for the 40th/80th anniversary but it's too late for that. I'm ok skipping SIII. Would be interesting to see if they could fix SIV effects properly and include the deleted bits. (Still waiting for that one disco scene in SIV to see the light of day....)
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Post by Metallo on Apr 7, 2017 16:16:25 GMT -5
I wouldn't put everything back. Certain scenes are atrocious but some of them are good enough. I'd definitely put the Russia and tornado scenes back in an official release. Lots of Lexs stuff is good. The metro club scene is a must.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 9, 2017 14:51:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't put everything back. Certain scenes are atrocious but some of them are good enough. I'd definitely put the Russia and tornado scenes back in an official release. Lots of Lexs stuff is good. The metro club scene is a must. A lot of Lois's stuff feels 'off'- like schtick rather than feeling authentic. I do wonder if there were other takes that were better or if the dynamics on the set (rushed production, understandably frustrated star and director over the budget crunch) caused issues with those bits. I do agree that the metro scene is a must- it's so sad that an issue with music clearance most likely prevented it from being seen on the boxset. Also.... I do wonder if there were alternate takes that were better with some of the weak scenes that were released. In any case, here's hoping that we do see more from the Donner years and/or SIV.....
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Post by Metallo on Apr 9, 2017 17:15:15 GMT -5
It's cause she's pushed to the side because they don't know what to do with her but feel like she just kind of HAS to be there. It's the same problem with Lois in the Snyderverse but in IV like you said there's more typical Lois Lane comedy shtick.
In IV shes not the romantic interest for Clark or even Superman really. That Lacys role. the relashionship with Superman's gone backwards to where it was Superman The movie instead of evolving. It's schoolgirl crush again and doesn't go anywhere towards being serious again. Where does that leave Lois? She is less character in her own right and more a plot filler and mother figure. Superman III avoided it by writing her out of most of the movie so it wasn't an issue. That's cause they knew they'd be stuck where Cannon was with the character.
Same thing with Amy Adams but for different reasons. She just kinda "has to be there because you can't have a movie without Lois" and they have to give Amy Adams something to do but these movie scenes aren't about the Clark/Lois relashionship at all. She feels more mother figure than strong character or romantic co lead.
At a certain point these things either have to evolve or they move on. Thats why we haven't seen Pepper Potts or Jane Foster in a Marvel movie in four years.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 9, 2017 20:35:29 GMT -5
It's cause she's pushed to the side because they don't know what to do with her but feel like she just kind of HAS to be there. It's the same problem with Lois in the Snyderverse but in IV like you said there's more typical Lois Lane comedy shtick. In IV shes not the romantic interest for Clark or even Superman really. That Lacys role. the relashionship with Superman's gone backwards to where it was Superman The movie instead of evolving. It's schoolgirl crush again and doesn't go anywhere towards being serious again. Where does that leave Lois? She is less character in her own right and more a plot filler and mother figure. Superman III avoided it by writing her out of most of the movie so it wasn't an issue. That's cause they knew they'd be stuck where Cannon was with the character. Same thing with Amy Adams but for different reasons. She just kinda "has to be there because you can't have a movie without Lois" and they have to give Amy Adams something to do but these movie scenes aren't about the Clark/Lois relashionship at all. She feels more mother figure than strong character or romantic co lead. At a certain point these things either have to evolve or they move on. Thats why we haven't seen Pepper Potts or Jane Foster in a Marvel movie in four years. In looking at SIV, I admire that the screenwriters tried to figure out a way to move the story between Lois and Supes forwards- while acknowledging the 'memory kiss'- but having both the 'comedy bit' of Superman shutting back and forth between two dates (fun, though imperfect in execution) and having Supes have this bit with Lois seemed at odds with each other. Later on, when Lois has that bit with the wounded Clark, it felt more confusing more than moving. Did she know? Did she not know? In either case, I respect the places where the screenwriters tried to go- I imagine the difficulty of trying to fit in Lois without being able to progress the relationship at all - but a tight script it definitely is not. I hate to say that it's the age of the cast, but I think they could have adjusted Lois and Jimmy's roles to be a bit older, that may have helped. As is, it sometimes felt like KIdder was trying to play Lois in STM at that same age, but they definitely looked older than that. (Though oddly Reeve probably looked like he aged the least).
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Post by Metallo on Apr 9, 2017 21:17:18 GMT -5
It's cause she's pushed to the side because they don't know what to do with her but feel like she just kind of HAS to be there. It's the same problem with Lois in the Snyderverse but in IV like you said there's more typical Lois Lane comedy shtick. In IV shes not the romantic interest for Clark or even Superman really. That Lacys role. the relashionship with Superman's gone backwards to where it was Superman The movie instead of evolving. It's schoolgirl crush again and doesn't go anywhere towards being serious again. Where does that leave Lois? She is less character in her own right and more a plot filler and mother figure. Superman III avoided it by writing her out of most of the movie so it wasn't an issue. That's cause they knew they'd be stuck where Cannon was with the character. Same thing with Amy Adams but for different reasons. She just kinda "has to be there because you can't have a movie without Lois" and they have to give Amy Adams something to do but these movie scenes aren't about the Clark/Lois relashionship at all. She feels more mother figure than strong character or romantic co lead. At a certain point these things either have to evolve or they move on. Thats why we haven't seen Pepper Potts or Jane Foster in a Marvel movie in four years. In looking at SIV, I admire that the screenwriters tried to figure out a way to move the story between Lois and Supes forwards- while acknowledging the 'memory kiss'- but having both the 'comedy bit' of Superman shutting back and forth between two dates (fun, though imperfect in execution) and having Supes have this bit with Lois seemed at odds with each other. Later on, when Lois has that bit with the wounded Clark, it felt more confusing more than moving. Did she know? Did she not know? In either case, I respect the places where the screenwriters tried to go- I imagine the difficulty of trying to fit in Lois without being able to progress the relationship at all - but a tight script it definitely is not. I hate to say that it's the age of the cast, but I think they could have adjusted Lois and Jimmy's roles to be a bit older, that may have helped. As is, it sometimes felt like KIdder was trying to play Lois in STM at that same age, but they definitely looked older than that. (Though oddly Reeve probably looked like he aged the least). Which is funny since Superman probably would age the least. Like you I didn't mind that they'd aged but that they just seemed to be in the same place as people. Jimmy didn't look old but The he didn't look like a high school or college aged rookie photographer either. Jimmy and to a lesser extent Lois should have grown as characters and been in different places in life even if it was just a little bit. Maybe mention Jimmy is head photographer now. They shouldn't have done radical changes but acknowledge some time has passed. To be fair to Superman IV most comics and comic book movies and tv shows were guilty of same things. The stuff that did last didn't think much of the characters growing or maturing. The creators want to keep the status quo and keep them in a state of arrested development. That's why DC and Marvel got rid of the Kent and Parker marriages and wouldn't let Peter grow up. They want these characters to stay frozen in the same place they were in when we all first loved them. It's especially frustrating with Peter Parker. Jack Larson never really "grew" as Jimmy either. Burt Wards Robin got his drivers license over the course of two years and if they had written him out in season four of Batman im guessing they would have sent him off to college but beyond that how much did he really change? I'd rather they had kidder back as Lois in IV than not have her. I also liked the double date. Loved the scene where she gave Clark the cape back. Good personal character moments. I like to think that maybe she did know or at least had an inkling he was Superman after the first and second memory erasing kiss. I did like that she remembered everything after the first memory erasing kiss. I think III and IV TRIED to move things along in these characters lives where they could without shaking up the status quo too much. What happened with Lana Lang was very true to real life. From head cheerleader and prom queen to struggling single mom. Clark's mom dying and him selling the farm is something people do deal with themselves.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 10, 2017 20:40:42 GMT -5
Which is funny since Superman probably would age the least. Like you I didn't mind that they'd aged but that they just seemed to be in the same place as people. Jimmy didn't look old but The he didn't look like a high school or college aged rookie photographer either. Jimmy and to a lesser extent Lois should have grown as characters and been in different places in life even if it was just a little bit. Maybe mention Jimmy is head photographer now. They shouldn't have done radical changes but acknowledge some time has passed. To be fair to Superman IV most comics and comic book movies and tv shows were guilty of same things. The stuff that did last didn't think much of the characters growing or maturing. The creators want to keep the status quo and keep them in a state of arrested development. That's why DC and Marvel got rid of the Kent and Parker marriages and wouldn't let Peter grow up. They want these characters to stay frozen in the same place they were in when we all first loved them. It's especially frustrating with Peter Parker. Jack Larson never really "grew" as Jimmy either. Burt Wards Robin got his drivers license over the course of two years and if they had written him out in season four of Batman im guessing they would have sent him off to college but beyond that how much did he really change? I'd rather they had kidder back as Lois in IV than not have her. I also liked the double date. Loved the scene where she gave Clark the cape back. Good personal character moments. I like to think that maybe she did know or at least had an inkling he was Superman after the first and second memory erasing kiss. I did like that she remembered everything after the first memory erasing kiss. I think III and IV TRIED to move things along in these characters lives where they could without shaking up the status quo too much. What happened with Lana Lang was very true to real life. From head cheerleader and prom queen to struggling single mom. Clark's mom dying and him selling the farm is something people do deal with themselves. Agreed. I recognize that comics 'have' to reboot somewhat every ten years (if not sooner) to keep their targeted age group, but that's why (to me) I feel like every superhero film that gets funded, greenlit, and ready to go is inherently going to be a rarity and/or have a limited shelf-life as a franchise, just because the actors will age--- that being the case, it REALLY makes Hugh Jackman's tenure as Wolverine amazing considering how long it's lasted. But I digress- In reading your post, two thoughts came to mind: #1: How much Superman Returns (for the most part) addressed time passing on with these characters, and trying to move it forward. Mostly I think it did a good job, considering how difficult it was to make you care about a quasi-sequel so many years later. But it really reminds me what a shame it was, that it didn't get any chance to 'be free' so to speak once it did all the heavy lifting in re-establishing everything in SR. #2: It makes me wonder how blocked the writers would have been with Superman V and Lois/Clark's relationship, if SIV had made enough money to move forward. I highly doubt that they would have been so bold as to give Supes a kid with Lois, and I doubt that Reeve would want to go back and introduce Supergirl, given that he bowed out of a guest starring role in that film. So- where could it have gone next? With such a limited (I presume) budget that would have been okayed by Cannon for SV, I wonder if Reeve would have been willing to keep going on with Superman at Cannon or not if the box office were JUST strong enough to make a profit.
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Post by Metallo on Apr 11, 2017 12:38:13 GMT -5
If Reeve had been willing and stuck around after a successful Superman IV I think the status quo would have remained about the same. Superman and Lois have feelings for each other that go nowhere. Maybe Clark gets another love interest in V. Notice it's like his budding relashionship with Lana in III never happened in IV. They hit the reset button.
To see it from these big companies sides when they do try to progress these characters some fans hate it. Lois and Clark got married on L&C/ABC in the 90s and by the fourth season it was l cancelled. Superman and Lois have a kid and Lois gets with another guy in SR and a lot of fans hate it and the movie underperforms.
Now you can also say it was partly because of poor execution/filmmaking but some fans hated the very ideas of a marriage or them having children no matter what. They never would have accepted it. But in the companies minds they're never going to blame their own poor creative execution. They'll justify it all by saying fans don't like change. The same way Snyders excuse was "people can't let go of the Reeve era" or "audiences didn't like the tone." They didn't admit that maybe it was the writing acting and directing that sucked.
Superman Returns deserves a lot of credit for breaking the ice on certain things and making them more acceptable. A lot of those same fans who hated the very notion of Superman having a son seem to be ok with his young son in the current DC Rebirth comics.
People hated the very idea of the costume being changed at all (trivial things like no S on the cape included) but now many of those same people are fine with some of the even more radical changes made by the DCEU Superman Costumes the CW costume the new 52 costume etc. Some of those are based on execution too but like I said some people who refused to accept ANY change are now ok with it.
Superman Returns also got people ok with the idea of another cinematic Superman after Reeve. Routh got a lot of flak and so does Cavill but Cavill would have had it even worse if he'd come directly in line after Reeve. The comparisons and the pressure wouldn have been worse.
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