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Post by adam15 on Feb 26, 2009 16:15:39 GMT -5
Okay so we all know that SII DC was a rush job right? Maybe they simply didn't have time to restore all the footage or maybe they just couldnt find all of it?
You know how Thau DIDN'T put most of the RIC stuff in the Donner Cut right? Well, it was still put in the deleted scenes section as the scenes were obviously available to use because they were broadcast way back in 84... the footage is obviously taken right from those broadcasts too.
I'm saying that if the extended TV cut in SII never existed, Thau probably wouldn't have put in/or wouldn't have found any of that stuff anyway! The only reason it was put on the disc was to "assure" the fans that ALL the Donner stuff was there.
So do you think there was more stuff Donner shot (like Lois and Superman in the fortress?)
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Post by Jimbo on Feb 26, 2009 16:52:01 GMT -5
Not really evidence. Don't be a lawyer. ;D
Not all of Donner's known footage made Donner's cut or the deleted scenes, so it's entirely possible. I believe the RIC had extra jail bits that were in neither official cut.
The deleted scenes are interesting. It sounds like they used the sound mix from the ABC cut (which included Thorne score), but used new widescreen footage (and very very unrestored) from some unknown source. Maybe there's a widescreen ABC version out there that was cropped for TV, and that footage was pulled from it.
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Post by adam15 on Feb 26, 2009 17:53:39 GMT -5
That's the point... the deleted scenes were obviously lifted from the ABC cut... so if that cut hadn't been released years back we still would never have seen it even with the Donner cut!
BTW, Donner said that Thau put in "as much of his film... THAT COULD BE SALVAGED Maybe there was more there that would have taken too long and been to arduous to restore i.e. close ups of Lois in Supes shirt... home movies...etc.
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Post by Jimbo on Feb 26, 2009 18:05:31 GMT -5
BTW, Donner said that Thau put in "as much of his film... THAT COULD BE SALVAGEDEven that's not true. They only included stuff that he felt, as a 2006 filmmaker, he would have included. As Lucas would say "faster, more intense". I liked the little bits like Jimmy saying "goshdarnit, that's my brand new camera!" and "I should have spiked it!" from the ABC cut. Even with the footage never before seen until 2006, I bet there are bits and pieces chopped off everywhere. Donner and Mank kept wanting the movie to go faster. Movies in 1978 didn't go faster, guys. Omitting the destruction of the Fortress was dumb, omitting Clark remembering the bully was dumb, and omitting the Arctic Police scene was dumb. Stuart Baird, save us! (Just don't direct Trek) |
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Post by adam15 on Feb 26, 2009 19:27:31 GMT -5
They didn't omit the destruction of the fortress. Donner said in earlier interviews b4 his cut came out that "a lot of his footage was destroyed" And he DID say in the introduction that they included "everything that could be salvaged" That means that certain whole parts couldn't even be used or "salvaged" even with extensive cutting!
I'm not talking about more peices that may be out there... I'm talking about ENTIRELY NEW SEQUENCES that Thau and Donner just didn't have the time to put in.
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Post by Jimbo on Feb 26, 2009 19:34:25 GMT -5
I think Gandy conjectured that the "home movies" scene were filmed, but there has never been any evidence of that.
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Post by TheKryptoniteKid on Feb 26, 2009 19:35:48 GMT -5
I can't recall. Is Non's unsuccessful attempt (followed by the power of three's successful attempt) to enter the Fortress in the Donner Cut? If not, it should have been.
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Post by Jimbo on Feb 26, 2009 19:47:56 GMT -5
I can't recall. Is Non's unsuccessful attempt (followed by the power of three's successful attempt) to enter the Fortress in the Donner Cut? If not, it should have been. That scene in the deleted scenes. |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Feb 26, 2009 22:01:14 GMT -5
Just throwing this out here. Upon watching the RIC recently I noticed that the scene where Superman and Lois stop flying away from the fortress (where they land a bit away from it and turn around to look at it again just before Supes uses his heat vision), the shot is in front of them and more of a close up, whereas the same take (I'm guessing) is shot from farther away and from behind them in Donner cut.
There's actually a lot more little changes in Donner footage in the RIC than the Donner cut. Just thought I'd point that one out.
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Post by adam15 on Feb 26, 2009 23:23:49 GMT -5
Gandy actually was very optimistic in his assessment on how much SII footage Donner actually shot; I was led to believe that blank bullets and home movies would have been shot and that all Donner really needed to finish was mainly SFX work.. which could EASILY be achieved with 2006 CGI... the Villians rule the world and the Metropolis battle could have been re-created easily! Imagine the horror we all felt when we realised
NO!:: blank bullets was not shot so the DP jump opening is unusable now.
NO! :::Not ALL of the fortress stuff was shot and what was shot wasn't even finished being covered.
NO!!!::: Donner's 70% figure also counted unusable and therebye wasted film like turning back time!!!
Man.. we thought there was a lost masterpiece out there but there wasn't just a couple of old Brando shots with a badly acted Reeve and a corny slapstick opening... nothing more.
Dear God this is depressing... Selutron... Thau... Donner... ANYONE please tell us SUperman CInema was right and that there is more Donner footage out there!!!
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MerM
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Post by MerM on Feb 26, 2009 23:29:13 GMT -5
The Donner Cut was a victim of impossibly high expectations, even if those expectations were what got the footage released in the first place.
C'est la vie.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Feb 27, 2009 0:00:58 GMT -5
MrM is spot on, and dammit, adam- this is an example of how you CAN bring something of merit to the table , yet so often you troll.
we need MORE of thoughtful subsitive inquiry and quite a bit LESS of the homo-phobic sophmoric trolling.
you are on the right track- stay there.
and yeah- we have NOT seen ALL the footage that exists. we hae seen a LOT in TV versions that hasnt been restored. good topic.
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Post by adam15 on Feb 27, 2009 1:06:32 GMT -5
Dude Jor-El you've been like the only one here who hasn't made fun of me and has found some humor in my posts... thanx man. So I'm gonna listen to you and tone down my wackiness... but please believe that while my remarks may seem homophopic, I personally am not. I just think gayness is kinda funny (not in itself) but when applied to Superman... I wouldn't care if gays thought I was funny for being straight!!! I have no style! hahaha But actually I am a bit Metrosexual myself... was raised by women ya know!  But yeah... no more posting outrageous stuff!  But man ... I'm at such a fricken crossroads in my life I fricken need an outlet for my pent up zaniness! I also do wish some folks here were a little more laid back and not so uptight with locking threads and silencing any mention of certain people... it's all a message board my god with all the real problems in the world lets all just relax here... So yeah... back on topic I know that blank bullets was not shot.... they simply never made it to Niagra. In fact, EVERY SINGLE new scene we saw in the Donner cut had pictures to support it's existence! But SURELY there is some more and we NEED more Superman in Donners cut and he HAD to have shot more fortress stuff!! WHAT ABOUT THAT ONE DONNER STILL OF SUPERMAN FLYING AWAY FROM THE FORTRESS?  We NEED to have Selutron (someone who actually has a passion for Superman) to go through everything again and really find every bit that Donner shot. Don't care if it takes years... find it! |
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Post by joey m on Feb 27, 2009 1:56:48 GMT -5
I've been thinking that since the deleted scenes are widescreen yet look and sound like the long TV version, doesn't that imply that the entire thing, as prepared by Salkind to sell to TV stations (presumably the cropping was done at a later stage), could be ready to be slapped on a future bonus disc? And could the same be true of the first movie? (I have no idea if that made sense or if this has been covered already)
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Feb 27, 2009 23:11:46 GMT -5
watch the doc's from the 2001 dvd , and the new doc from the 2006 dvd and you will se allkinds of footage from different angles and so forth.
even scenes we have seen have extra frames here and there.
once, i got a extnded tv cut of STM , just a quality upgrade i thought - as i thought i had seen everything- but the scene where lex gets pissed at otis inthe ambulance and asks otis about a " long arm" ...that scene went on for several more seconds with lex and otis falling out of the back of the ambulance.
when i saw the RDC of SII , the scene with miss tesmaucher seducing the warden as lex and otis worked onhis car... THAT scene was atotal surprise. never heard of it before.
seriously, i would watch every frame of every reel before i got bored.
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Post by adam15 on Feb 28, 2009 0:27:02 GMT -5
Yeah why did Donner shoot that alternate Lex escape? Maybe he wasn't sure about the baloon? Or maybe this scene woulda came after the credits to hint at a Superman III?
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Kirok
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"You have failed this city!"
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Post by Kirok on Feb 28, 2009 1:00:39 GMT -5
Yeah why did Donner shoot that alternate Lex escape? Maybe he wasn't sure about the baloon? Or maybe this scene woulda came after the credits to hint at a Superman III? Well...this is just thinking out loud but if the original intention was indeed to turn back time at the end of the movie perhaps the alternate Lex escape would have been mixed in with the ending scenes as if to say no matter what happens, Luthor escapes! Of course looking back on it now the 'Diner Revenge' scene at the end would have never made sense if the turn-back-time ending was used, in much the same way the RDC's use of the scene contradicts the movie. |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Feb 28, 2009 13:36:15 GMT -5
Yeah why did Donner shoot that alternate Lex escape? Maybe he wasn't sure about the baloon? Or maybe this scene woulda came after the credits to hint at a Superman III? Well...this is just thinking out loud but if the original intention was indeed to turn back time at the end of the movie perhaps the alternate Lex escape would have been mixed in with the ending scenes as if to say no matter what happens, Luthor escapes! Of course looking back on it now the 'Diner Revenge' scene at the end would have never made sense if the turn-back-time ending was used, in much the same way the RDC's use of the scene contradicts the movie. NOTHING about the time-warp in SIIRDC works. its wrong wrong wrong. |
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matt
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Post by matt on Feb 28, 2009 13:44:49 GMT -5
Well...this is just thinking out loud but if the original intention was indeed to turn back time at the end of the movie perhaps the alternate Lex escape would have been mixed in with the ending scenes as if to say no matter what happens, Luthor escapes! Of course looking back on it now the 'Diner Revenge' scene at the end would have never made sense if the turn-back-time ending was used, in much the same way the RDC's use of the scene contradicts the movie. NOTHING about the time-warp in SIIRDC works. its wrong wrong wrong. I wish I could turn back time, so I wouldn't watch the Donner Cut |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Feb 28, 2009 13:48:14 GMT -5
y'know way way waaaaayyy back in 2001 when we ere waiting for the restored STM DHARMESH was wellahead of the curve in calling for donner's superman II footage to be explored in a documentary as opposed to a " cut " .
to do it again, i'd rather have a " green cut "that took SIIRIC and removed th eawful bits - AND- have a new doc that compared/contrested the alternate story material
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matt
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Post by matt on Feb 28, 2009 13:54:33 GMT -5
They chose not to make a great movie. They put all of the new Donner scenes in there and they just didn't make sense in the movie like the ending.There is a great movie in there, all of the fan edits prove that.
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Post by albertd on Mar 1, 2009 15:38:17 GMT -5
To be honest, I think there is a lot more footage than what we have seen in the RIC and in the RDC. Let's not forget Superman II is over 20 years old and some footage stayed in the editing studio..lost forever..
IMO One of the most annoying things about the Richard Donner Cut was Jor-El's flying head in the Fortress Of Solitude. That effect looked so very cheap and amateurish. I was like: WTF?? A flying head?? The edges were also much too sharp.
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Post by adam15 on Mar 1, 2009 18:37:27 GMT -5
Stayed in the editing studio? Please elaborate! Margot Kidder even said that there were SCENES (plural) of them together that were better than what was put out.... Well I only counted ONE new scene (the opening) with them together.... the ending at the Daily Planet doesn't count!! At the fortress with Jor El doesnt count because Kidder is in the faaaaar background. Was Kidder talking about home movies or.... gasp... blank bullets??? Didnt Donner say in the STM commentary that the blank bullets scene was "all done" and taken out by Lester? Doesn't that imply that the scene existed as a concrete finished scene?
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Post by TheKryptoniteKid on Mar 1, 2009 22:20:34 GMT -5
all Donner really needed to finish was mainly SFX work.. which could EASILY be achieved with 2006 CGI... the Villians rule the world and the Metropolis battle could have been re-created easily! Good CGI is never "easy" and takes lots of time and money. If it was that easy, every FX film since JURASSIC PARK would look flawless, and they don't. |
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Post by adam15 on Mar 1, 2009 22:48:07 GMT -5
Awww I think this site should be dedicated to discovering ALL of Donners SII footage! I think THAU (if that WAS his real name) was lying through his teeth when he said he found "everything" Look Thau..... I think you just found a couple of scenes then got LAZY and stopped looking! You just thought.. "awww f*ck it I'll just use the screen test" and "ahh theres plenty of new stuff in here I'm not gonna be bothered to find anymore... fans wont notice!"
Well I'm here to say that I know FOR A FACT that more Donner scenes exist... and I demand Mr. Thau tell the truth about his "restoration" attempts!!!!
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But yeah... no more posting outrageous stuff! 
But man ... I'm at such a fricken crossroads in my life I fricken need an outlet for my pent up zaniness! I also do wish some folks here were a little more laid back and not so uptight with locking threads and silencing any mention of certain people... it's all a message board my god with all the real problems in the world lets all just relax here...
