What fan cut of Superman II is recommended?

[adam15]

I don't know about Ollies cut, but I know Mav used the car getaway for some ungodly reason (I'd seriously like to know why he likes that scene better than the baloon escape)

Plus the fortress doesn't get destroyed in his cut.... presumably to tie into Superman Returns .
Now why can we presume that Superman can grow new crystals in SR but he can't grow a new fortress??
You HAVE to have the destruction of the fortress in SII.... it's part 2 of the double bill... the fortress is created in STM and destroyed along with Jor-El in SII.

But didn't Maverick of jimbo have something special at the end of their cut like Superman salutes the President or whatever??? pls confirm & explain

I would like to hear about Ollie's cut however... what's IN -IT?

[crazy_asian_man]

I don't know about Ollies cut, but I know Mav used the car getaway for some ungodly reason (I'd seriously like to know why he likes that scene better than the baloon escape)

Plus the fortress doesn't get destroyed in his cut.... presumably to tie into Superman Returns .
Now why can we presume that Superman can grow new crystals in SR but he can't grow a new fortress??
You HAVE to have the destruction of the fortress in SII.... it's part 2 of the double bill... the fortress is created in STM and destroyed along with Jor-El in SII.

But didn't Maverick of jimbo have something special at the end of their cut like Superman salutes the President or whatever??? pls confirm & explain

Maverick's feels pretty 'fresh' because of his unique choices- AND how the timing of those splices really are incredible, in that it really makes it feel like a new film experience where many of the bits and scenes do fit together. (As opposed to splices that feel compromised because of mismatches mainly due to Donner and Lester's approaches in content, performances, etc.)

I think I enjoy many of the cuts, because they are like 'alternate universe' versions of a favorite movie, that never (and sadly may never, unless WB is willing to sink in $50 mil for cgi recreations) will ever be what was intended in 1980 by Donner.

Many of the choices (like the car getaway) I don't necessarily prefer, but looking at it as a whole, it does make it feel 'newer'.

While Superman can probably 'grow' a new fortress (in the original script for IV, Superman regenerates the entire Fortress of Solitude, which would have made a transition between SII and SIV a little smoother continuity-wise, had it been shot/included)--- Mav's choice to simply have him look at the fortress with Reeve's downcast amazingly works- new emotional contexts are given, just by rearranging different pieces in this cut.

Is it exactly what Donner intended? Maybe not, but I admire what was done and how the overall picture comes together.

RKS and Verisimilitude's I like a lot, and those have more choices in line with what I prefer, but for a whole new experience and a daring direction, I have to place my vote for Mav/Jimbo's. (I have yet to see Albert's, but am very curious and do want to see it)

About the special suprise at the end- well, I'll let those guys share it if they want to.

((*About the tie-ins to SR: My own theory- which a bit obscure, (and perhaps it is reaching), but I assumed that just as there were 'two' Jor-els in SII: the recorded memory/data crystals and the 'living spirit' of Jor-el --- that the second was destroyed in SII, but that only the recorded memory and data crystals could be regenerated in SR--- which is why Lex can only ask data from Jor-el, like about everything technical about the crystals, or about Tree poetry, but nothing else.))

[MAVERICK]

Mar 10, 2009 4:32:53 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

I don't know about Ollies cut, but I know Mav used the car getaway for some ungodly reason. I'd seriously like to know why he likes that scene better than the baloon escape

I like it because its more realistic & it allows me to lose all scenes with the Balloon & Black Box. The Police would be able to stop a Hot Air Baloon in about 10 minutes. Its gonna be harder to catch a car that got the jump on them.

If you really want to know the reasons for some of my decisions, you can find them here:

fortressofsolitude.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=superman&action=display&thread=412&page=1

[EvilSupes]

Where does one get this cut of yours and Jimbo's, Mav?

[adam15]

I'm sure Maverick's cut is really nice maybe I could download it (is there a torrent or something?) I'm sure it's a great cut. However, I'm wondering if the concept of dimininshing returns applies to editing SII once Brando has been put back in.

What I mean is, once you trim the Lester humor, add the RIC stuff, and Brando, and the Donner battle stuff... is this the point where SII reaches it's peak and every other change actually hurts the film and makes it a novelty?

No matter how much we try to shoehorn the DP jumps WITH the blank bullets it's gonna be a challenge; of course I have not seen any fan cut that has made these two scenes work togther.
Is Mav/Jimbo's cut really the best possible SII cut out there OR is it simply the best cut possible while using all of Donners stuff?

[Jimbo]

My S2 cut is crap. It's based on my sensibilities two years ago when I thought Lester sucked and Donner could hardly do any wrong. Things have changed. If I redid it today, there'd be more of the original Superman II than before.

[adam15]

Why was your cut crap? What Siperman II do you watch then? Is Mav's crap too?

[adam15]

Mar 10, 2009 11:53:37 GMT -5 MAVERICK said:

Mar 10, 2009 4:32:53 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

I don't know about Ollies cut, but I know Mav used the car getaway for some ungodly reason. I'd seriously like to know why he likes that scene better than the baloon escape

I like it because its more realistic & it allows me to lose all scenes with the Balloon & Black Box. The Police would be able to stop a Hot Air Baloon in about 10 minutes. Its gonna be harder to catch a car that got the jump on them.

If you really want to know the reasons for some of my decisions, you can find them here:

fortressofsolitude.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=superman&action=display&thread=412&page=1

But Mav... you think it's more plausable that the Warden seduced by Mrs. Teschmacher and doesn't wanna miss his cartoons... that's right out of a bugs bunny cartoon!!!!!!! Your logic about the polic shooting down the baloon supposes a certain logic that the Superman movies never had... why have the artic police then if you want to be 100% believeable? Why have Clark walking to the fortress in a light jacket with not even a f ing hat or scarf? Why doesn't Superman just turn back time as soon as he gets his powers back? Why doesn't Clark notice that he didn't feel a bullet when Lois shot him and didn't notice that that his suit didn't even have a bullet hole in it???

To each their own I suppose but I LOVED the interaction betwen Lex and Otis in the prison yard waitng for the baloon! When Otis finds the ladder and asks "What is it?" was LMAO!


I think the car escape was what was originally intended, bnut they (wisely) reshoot the sequence with the baloon... check out Manks notes at the end of his script!!

[Jimbo]

Mar 10, 2009 18:38:28 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

Why was your cut crap? What Siperman II do you watch then?

I included too much of Donner's stuff, stuff that I later decided didn't work overall in the film. Sure, the added Donner bits are nice, but the effects and music are terrible. That's why I like Paris more than Daily Planet jump/XK-101 release.

Last time I watched the movie, it was Lester's Superman II. It's been a long time. I may revisit this.

[adam15]

The problem is that you can't watch the Lester cut anymore while knowing the Brando stuff is available. I'm dang dog tired of everyone having a different version of SII... it's like we're all fans of a different movie... there has to be a standard!!
Okay, before Selutron releases his cut for STMs centenial we'll all make a cut that just adds Brando into Superman II. THAT will be our official Superman II and no one can complain about it.

Again I'll say if Brandos stuff had been in the movie, there wouldn't have been NEAR the same interest in recovering Donners lost work anyway, so lets mave THAT be the official cut of the Superman cinema message board... we'll call it the Marlon Brando cut!

Dear God saying this got me 40 lashings last time I said it but it is a WELL KNOWN FACT! that having Marlon Brando in SII is better than having Susanahh York.....EVEN WITH THAUS EDITING CHOICES!!This is NOT an opinion.

Obviously, there is room for debate over whether the DP jump works better for the film (we know FOR A FACT that the scene itself is better but we acknowledge that for the film it may not work.) But surely everyone here agrees with the fact that Brando in SII... even Thau's Brando is better than Lara in the Lester cut! God have mercy on your souls if you disagree...

[Jor-L5150]

different people had different approaches.

ADM wanted to make a cohesive series with no continuity gaffes and so he streamlined things that way. he did a great job , his " superman redeemed( SIII ) " was inspired. his cut of SR was vastly superior to the theatrical. i didnt agree with all of his choices for SR but mostly i prefer it to the official. while i know why he cut the fortress destruction- for having it in SIV and SR - i would have left it in becauseits so damn cool , and i view these continuity issues as evidence of " paralells " ( ie , STM} SII lester } SIII} SIV as one universe , STM } SII RDC as another , STM }as a third ) )

i havent seen deja-vu cut- but i want to. it has a little of EVERYTHING. and it makes a servicable use of the inexcusable timewarp.

i enjoyed all the versions i have seen. RKS , verisimilitude , jimbo basically took a best of both worlds approach. i have loaned these out to friends and it always gets good feedback. verisimilitude actually founf footage from other movies to insert into zod's conquest that was really cool . RKS actually had donner and lester scenes composited.

[Ollie W]

Mar 9, 2009 23:24:54 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

WHat is your cut like Ollie?

SUPERMAN II: The Complete Cut (REVISED)

This is a Donner biased version of Superman II that is complete. There is far less compromises with this version so for those who loved the Donner material this cut is for you.

There are a couple of new changes made to my revised cut but predominantly the reason for revisiting SII was to create a stronger audio track as it simply wasn’t loud enough for my previous version.

There are two people who I must always thank for making this edit possible.

Red Krypton Son; Who gave his blessing for me to use some of his material from the RKS cut, including two re-composited scenes and two audio elements. These being;

- A new scene during Lex’s confrontation with Jor-El which shows Zod and co making havoc on Krypton.
- A corrected shot as Superman returns the flag to the Whitehouse which features moving fountains.
- Sound element during Villains confrontation which the sheriff.
- Sound element during the first half of the Villain’s entering East Idaho.

Verisimilitude; For his helpful advice in how to correct the LC footage so it more closely matches the DC footage.

Here’s the scene order, NEW changes made to my revised cut are in bold;

- WB logo
- DC; Reeve credit is met with silence.
- DC; Same music cue opens the picture but this is played over traveling space footage from the LC followed by a dissolve into Thau’s opening Krypton shot.
- Thau’s entire recap is retained.
- DC; Credit sequence tweaked. Reeve receives top billing followed by Gene, then Brando.
- DC; ‘S’ logo has been replaced with the STM ‘S’ logo.
- DC; Daily Planet/Lex in Prison/Villains on the Moon
- DC; Sound FX is added when Zod kicks the Astronaut on the moon.
- DC; End dialog between those guys in the control room has been trimmed.
- DC; Lex escapes/Niagara Falls exteriors
- LC; Hotel tour of the room scene is put back in.
- DC; Dialog extended as Lex and Eve head north to include “Ice and snow is this your idea of a good time”.
- RKS; Inserted scene of villains making havoc on Krypton.
- LC; No possibility for Parol is put back in.
- LC; Included a shot of Eve walking away.
- DC; Music cue added as Lex thinks out loud with toilet flush removed.
- DC; Rescuing boy at Niagara Falls however I removed dialog “oh course he’s Jewish”.
- LC; Shot put back in of Superman landing behind the stall followed his confrontation with Lois.
- DC; "Villains landing" & "Ursa and the snake" scenes have been joined.
- DC; Blank Bullets scene
- DC; Encounter with the Sheriff features additional LC footage and RKS audio with "holy skunk sweat" dialog removed.
- DC; lovers fly north
- LC; Villains encounter with the people of East Idaho features RKS audio playing over the first half of the scene. Cut away from “these human are beginning to bore me to LC Supes shows Lois around the fortress, minus crystal being left on the floor.
- DC; Television crew show up features some additional LC footage.
- DC; Cut from “Where’s Superman, and why doesn’t he do something” to LC Supes and Lois having dinner.
- DC; Non catching rocket, then cut from “Is there no one on this planet to even challenge me” to DC Supes and Lois in Bed.
- DC; Zod speech which LC audio.
- DC; Fall of Washington monument/Depowering scene
- Replaced DC Whitehouse shot with LC villains fly over the Whitehouse.
- DC; Villains in the Whitehouse
- DC; Diner scene fades into Clark’s trek to the fortress.
- DC; Replaced Reeve’s delivery of “father” with that from the LC.
- DC; For Lex at the Whitehouse, I opened with Ursa playing with the revolving planets gizmo, thus Non's confused reaction with his toy is scraped.
- DC; Back at the Daily planet
- DC; Music added to the Daily Planet invasion.
- LC; Door knob line put back in.
- DC; Lex’s end dialog at the planet (“You ought to have that thing fixed”), is removed.
- Supes return uses mostly DC footage but features Thorne music and “would you care to step outside”.
- DC; “I’m not a coward” audio has been fixed.
- DC; Rescuing the tanker with Thorne audio. A few shots from the LC were needed to keep the audio in sync.
- LC; Lady on the ground “Superman help us”
- DC; Battle with Zod on the car uses LC audio.
- DC; To the Fortress
- DC; Superman defeats Zod now features LC audio for the entire scene. Again a little bit of footage from the LC was needed to keep the audio in sync.
- Artic patrol scene minus “Smallville strongboy”.
- Artic Patrol minus “Blast off”
- DC; Destroy fortress/Break-up scene/Dropping Lois back home
- LC; Memory kiss back in but ends with a dissolve from a dizzy Lois to a sun setting shot (from Superman IV), to a day shot of Metropolis.
- DC: Back at the daily Planet (go get the Pizza) scene.
- Clark and Jimmy by the elevator.
- DC; Return to the Diner with LC audio.
- LC; Supes returns flag using RKS’s restored shot of the fountains moving.
- LC fly over, DC fly bye
- DC; end titles with Thorne score.

THE END
DVD 123 Min

Not sure exactly when it will be done, I'm still experimenting with a couple of things and I'm flat out with work at the moment. Rest assured I will resurrect my thread when it's ready to make available.

[adam15]

I haven't seen your cut but it's obviously the best possible considering you are intent on using all of Donner's footage. The question is.... is this the best cut of Superman II? Would the film be improved by using Paris and the full memory wipe kiss?

[indo77]

"Blast Off" would work if they cut the seconds between Lex saying "one" and the phrase.

[crazy_asian_man]

Ollie W- thanks for sharing your outline- can't wait for this to get finished.

I think it's always really fascinating (to me, at least), what other cutters decide to leave in/out or change.... and what EVERYONE changes (which should be a shout out to Thau that he should have reconsidered this/that editing choice).

For my part, I agree generally that all Donner footage should be reinstated where possible- but I also agree that there are touches here and there in the Donner edit that could/should have some refinement.

Speaking of which, funny that in general, almost all the cuts I've seen:
#1: have tried to re-instate as much Thorne scoring as possible.
#2: Omits the music behind the dedication to Reeve
#3: Removes the toilet flush from the FOS
#4: Tries to reduce as much of the smalltown sheriff/deputy bits as possible.
#5: Fixes the pipsqueak "I'm not a coward, Zod." audio. Amazing that that went through on the RDC.
#6: Reduces the slapstick of the Metropolis battle
#7: Re-installs bits or all of the Arctic Patrol.
#8: Re-inserts memory kiss over the turning back of time.

Had the Donner cut been closer in style and execution to Baird's aesthetics, it's highly probable that NOONE would feel such a pressing need to fan cut this.

[bizarroworld]

Mar 8, 2009 18:18:33 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

Ehhhh.... well Albert I'm not gonna lie I have zero interest in seeing your cut now that I've seen the trailer. (unless I'm totally wasted then it would be fun to watch) But seriously the whole point of a fan cut is to make a version YOU are happy with so if that is your ideal version of SII then there's nothing wrong with that!

So you guys is the Boosherman cut any good? I here in his version Lois DOESNT jump out the widow.... then why would he put it in his Cut?? Whatever.... just tell me he uses Thornes music for Superman's DP arrival, the hand crush, and the returning the flag. Those are the three key moment of SII that you cheer and I'm tired of people changing them! Oh and Thornes music when Superman is giving the tanker a good blowjob.. it was perfect why change it??? And I'll stick by my assessment that you cant have the DP jump opening without Lois jumping.... why would Lois realise Clark is Superman and then wait 45 min to actualy test it??

It's hard to use Thorne's score for the hand crush because the Donner Cut and Lester Cut are edited differently -- plus Lester's fortress is very green while Donner's is white. Would you rather have the Thorne score if the screen went from pure white to green?

[Jimbo]

I was able to use Thorne's score over Donner's footage. I did a cross-fade during the hand crush, and then trimmed a bit of the footage of Zod flying in the air. Once the sound of him smacking the Fortress wall was synched, it fell into place. However, I did have to reinsert one shot that the Donner version did not have. It's the one where Superman grabs Zod's belt, and begins to lift him up. For that single shot, I had a friend recolor it to match the Donner footage.

However, when I did it, I faded back to Donner audio for Hackman's line. If I had the choice of doing it again, I'd stay with Lester audio throughout, edited to fit the Donner footage.

An alternative would be to get software to adjust the color of the Lester footage so that the Fortress could be bluer. I've seen it done.

[MAVERICK]

Mar 10, 2009 19:04:20 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

But Mav... you think it's more plausable that the Warden seduced by Mrs. Teschmacher and doesn't wanna miss his cartoons... that's right out of a bugs bunny cartoon!!!!!!!

I like cartoons. That line is a throwaway & is irrelevant to the escape itself.
Its simple: Car escape could actually happen. Balloon could not. I hate the dialog & everything about the balloon escape. I love everything about the car escape. Simple, really.

Your logic about the polic shooting down the baloon supposes a certain logic that the Superman movies never had

So, by that reasoning I cant improve where I see fitn in my cut?

why have the artic police then if you want to be 100% believeable?Why have Clark walking to the fortress in a light jacket with not even a f ing hat or scarf? Why doesn't Superman just turn back time as soon as he gets his powers back? Why doesn't Clark notice that he didn't feel a bullet when Lois shot him and didn't notice that that his suit didn't even have a bullet hole in it???

Those are things I couldn't change. In the instance of the escape, I had a choice, & made the one I liked the best.

To each their own I suppose but I LOVED the interaction betwen Lex and Otis in the prison yard waitng for the baloon! When Otis finds the ladder and asks "What is it?" was LMAO!

Hated it.

I think the car escape was what was originally intended, bnut they (wisely) reshoot the sequence with the baloon... check out Manks notes at the end of his script!!

Don't care. Donner made his cut with Thau & failed. Now I made mine to suit my tastes. Nothing more or less.

[bizarroworld]

Mar 18, 2009 20:17:50 GMT -5 Jimbo said:

I was able to use Thorne's score over Donner's footage. I did a cross-fade during the hand crush, and then trimmed a bit of the footage of Zod flying in the air. Once the sound of him smacking the Fortress wall was synched, it fell into place. However, I did have to reinsert one shot that the Donner version did not have. It's the one where Superman grabs Zod's belt, and begins to lift him up. For that single shot, I had a friend recolor it to match the Donner footage.

However, when I did it, I faded back to Donner audio for Hackman's line. If I had the choice of doing it again, I'd stay with Lester audio throughout, edited to fit the Donner footage.

An alternative would be to get software to adjust the color of the Lester footage so that the Fortress could be bluer. I've seen it done.

Interesting way of making that sequence work with Thorne's score. I just switched to Lester's cut as soon as Superman comes out of the chamber to try and keep the sequences as pure as possible. I would have just kept the Donner footage but Adam specifically requested Thorne's score in that scene.

What's the name of your cut I want to check it out.

[bizarroworld]

Mar 10, 2009 11:53:37 GMT -5 MAVERICK said:

Mar 10, 2009 4:32:53 GMT -5 @adam15 said:

I don't know about Ollies cut, but I know Mav used the car getaway for some ungodly reason. I'd seriously like to know why he likes that scene better than the baloon escape

I like it because its more realistic & it allows me to lose all scenes with the Balloon & Black Box. The Police would be able to stop a Hot Air Baloon in about 10 minutes. Its gonna be harder to catch a car that got the jump on them.

If you really want to know the reasons for some of my decisions, you can find them here:

fortressofsolitude.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=superman&action=display&thread=412&page=1

You used the car escape scene? Wow, I have to check it out. I personally always loved the balloon escape, even though it's not entirely realistic. I'll check your Superman II cut out and see how you made it work!

[adam15]

Soooooooooo.... a classic scene that I love (the baloon bustout) is disliked by Maverick.

I cannot comprehend why he doesn't like this scene and favors the (IMO) cartoony and rather plain and ordinary car escape. He said that it was because it was "unrealistic" to have someone escape via balloon in a Superman movie

Well, I told him that there are tons of other "unrealistic" things that he chose to leave in his cut (Lois shooting clark, jumping out window etc) so I wanted some clarification on his criteria for which scenes he used.

[MAVERICK]

From Adams original post (Before it accitentally got deleted, sorry about that)

Adam=superman said:

But Maverick you COULD HAVE changed other unrealistic things in your SII cut!

Didnt want to. I like the scenes I left in. Simple as that.

WHY did you feel the need to delete the baloon bust out but kept this other stuff?

Because I dont like the Balloon bust. I like the other stuff.

Please elaborate as to why you dislike the balloon sequence.

Nah, I dont feel the need to elaborate to you any more.

I'll finish by saying, as Ive always said: You can sometimes tell alot about a movie by looking at the people who dont like it.

With that in mind, I now like my cut even more.

[ADigitalMan]

I probably would have kept the fortress destruction scene if Thau's eye-beams weren't so gawd-awful. I actually thought the fortress in Superman Returns looked like it had been all bombed out. But do take note that Jor-El didn't exist in my edit of SR either. His energy was expended in SII.

I always felt awkward about Superman being in Clark-wear before entering the chamber, but I so preferred the RDC scene on the whole. I really like the cuts out there that I've seen that were able to weave Jor-El AND Lara into the scene though.

It was truly the toughest cut I've done. I'm not 100% satisfied with the end result, but I'm pretty happy with the end result, especially in conjunction with the other Superman films I did. Maybe one day when both versions are out in HD I'll re-do it again and cook up some improvements.

Or maybe Selutron will render all of it moot. I look forward to that most of all.

[Jimbo]

Jeez, what's more likely at this point: Selutron's S2 or Bryan Singer's SR 2?

[adam15]

Maverick, I'm sorry, I really am, I kind of believe you put in the car sequence in an effort to make the film more "your own" To me it is a radical thing to say that you prefer the car escape over the balloon. I really want to believe you so if you would just give me a few reasons as to why the baloon escape sucks and why the car escape is better than we can have a dialogue. But please don't say that it was because it was "unrealistic." Even though I haven't scene you cut YOU kind sir are recieving dramatic criticism.... defend yourself.


BTW; if you ever try to attain an MBA or Doctorate (if you don't already have one) then you'll be called before a panel of professors who will try to break apart your thesis... you'll have to defend it and you will if your thesis is truly a significant contribution to your field of study. Now is your SII cut worthy to anyone else besides yourself... can it be a part of Superman film history as the Ultimate fan Cut and the author is one day hired by Donner himself to do the thing right?? We'll see.... in the meatime... prove your work and yourself!