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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 20, 2009 14:07:47 GMT -5
I do think that in SR he's like this loner wierdo stalker that no one likes... there's no warmth in his performance... Routh is devoid of any personality as Superman. At his best Routh only hearkens to Reeve but it's a pale comparison. . No one likes? Can you elaborate on that please? And please, take your time to think about your answer. I want hard facts to back up your argument, if you indeed have one.  |
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Post by MAVERICK on Mar 20, 2009 14:10:24 GMT -5
Exaaaaaaaaaactly |
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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 20, 2009 14:11:04 GMT -5
It's amazing how opinions differ. I'm not surprised, either you HATE SR or LOVE it. I USED to get very surprised to hear that some people hated/disliked SR (from the Internet). It was quite shocking to me, but soon I understood why. I still can't understand it quite well, but I have accepted it. |
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belloq
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www.amazon.com/rosetta_stone/%hovitos "5 Stars"
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Post by belloq on Mar 20, 2009 14:12:03 GMT -5
Superman's human upbringing is significant to the "scream" thing as well. I think there is much more human in Superman than Kryptonian. He grew up with fears, insecurities, loneliness, and angst. He may inspire the best in us, but he also owns the worst in us. So, yeah, he's a screamer. He may go into a situation trying to act all Jor-El about everything, but once shit goes down, i think he gets that "pus in the gut" feeling like the rest of us.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 20, 2009 16:38:18 GMT -5
The story 's center for SR had Supes wondering if the world wanted him back, after leaving for so long--- remember, the original version had Clark NOT wear his uniform under his shirt (was CGI'd in later, I understand)- So there was a good deal of apprehension Supes had about appearing all cheerful and being angst-free. If he came back to earth after having left it for a few years without telling anyone, I think there's a degree of guilt and shame (that I felt got revealed in the talk w/Lois on the rooftop) that he has to go through. The smile that Supes has of walking out of the airplane in the beginning, to me, was Supes' realizing that the public didn't hate him for leaving them, but just loved having him back. Also, in the story, not only does his search for Krypton's remains result in a more painful disappointment--- it also costs him Lois' love in the beginning of the story (and maybe even so at the end--- the suggestion is that possibly that they could never be together). So...how appropriate would it have followed in that movie for Superman to seem upbeat and chatty? I agree that Supes should not be constantly full of angst, but it was appropriate for SR--- If there's any chance MOS is still on, I'm sure that Supes would be in a better mood- as would fit the story....until he becomes an 'angry god' that is. |
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Legsy
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Alright, alright, alright...
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Post by Legsy on Mar 20, 2009 16:49:38 GMT -5
The story 's center for SR had Supes wondering if the world wanted him back, after leaving for so long--- remember, the original version had Clark NOT wear his uniform under his shirt (was CGI'd in later, I understand)- So there was a good deal of apprehension Supes had about appearing all cheerful and being angst-free. If he came back to earth after having left it for a few years without telling anyone, I think there's a degree of guilt and shame (that I felt got revealed in the talk w/Lois on the rooftop) that he has to go through. The smile that Supes has of walking out of the airplane in the beginning, to me, was Supes' realizing that the public didn't hate him for leaving them, but just loved having him back. Also, in the story, not only does his search for Krypton's remains result in a more painful disappointment--- it also costs him Lois' love in the beginning of the story (and maybe even so at the end--- the suggestion is that possibly that they could never be together). So...how appropriate would it have followed in that movie for Superman to seem upbeat and chatty? I agree that Supes should not be constantly full of angst, but it was appropriate for SR--- If there's any chance MOS is still on, I'm sure that Supes would be in a better mood- as would fit the story....until he becomes an 'angry god' that is. You are correct, sir! |
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Post by adam15 on Mar 20, 2009 18:31:00 GMT -5
I do think that in SR he's like this loner wierdo stalker that no one likes... there's no warmth in his performance... Routh is devoid of any personality as Superman. At his best Routh only hearkens to Reeve but it's a pale comparison. . No one likes? Can you elaborate on that please? And please, take your time to think about your answer. I want hard facts to back up your argument, if you indeed have one. We'll no one likes Superman much in SR. Lex still hates him, Lois is rude as heck to him, and one dude tried to shoot him in the eye! Seriously, what I meant is that stalkers are usually people who are social outcasts and can't have real relationships and dates hence stalking. Superman came across at that loser guy that no one likes whos idea of have a girlfreind is sneaking to her house at night (using x-ray goggles to see THROUGH the walls of her home) Just to see if she "likes" you.  |
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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 20, 2009 22:44:18 GMT -5
adam15 said,We'll no one likes Superman much in SR. A lot of people seemed to like Superman in SR: the thousands of people cheering for him in the stadium, at Bibbo's, at the Daily Planet, outside the hospital, Jason ("I like him"), Ma Kent. Lex still hates himDuh Lois is rude as heck to him,Understandable, right? and one dude tried to shoot him in the eye!  Seriously, what I meant is that stalkers are usually people who are social outcasts and can't have real relationships and dates hence stalking. Well since there was no "stalking" in SR, I don't understand the purpose of this sentence. Superman came across at that loser guy that no one likes whos idea of have a girlfreind is sneaking to her house at night (using x-ray goggles to see THROUGH the walls of her home) Just to see if she "likes" you. He didn't come across as a loser at all to me. And again, lots of people liked him since they welcomed him with open arms and seemed very concern for his well-being outside the hospital. Besides, Lois was clearly not his girlfriend anymore; she was with Richard. So this was it? OK... I'm not convinced.
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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 20, 2009 22:55:56 GMT -5
The story 's center for SR had Supes wondering if the world wanted him back, after leaving for so long--- remember, the original version had Clark NOT wear his uniform under his shirt (was CGI'd in later, I understand)- So there was a good deal of apprehension Supes had about appearing all cheerful and being angst-free. If he came back to earth after having left it for a few years without telling anyone, I think there's a degree of guilt and shame (that I felt got revealed in the talk w/Lois on the rooftop) that he has to go through. The smile that Supes has of walking out of the airplane in the beginning, to me, was Supes' realizing that the public didn't hate him for leaving them, but just loved having him back. Also, in the story, not only does his search for Krypton's remains result in a more painful disappointment--- it also costs him Lois' love in the beginning of the story (and maybe even so at the end--- the suggestion is that possibly that they could never be together). So...how appropriate would it have followed in that movie for Superman to seem upbeat and chatty? I agree that Supes should not be constantly full of angst, but it was appropriate for SR--- If there's any chance MOS is still on, I'm sure that Supes would be in a better mood- as would fit the story....until he becomes an 'angry god' that is. Perfectly said. I just love it when the guys get it. It's so inspiring! |
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Post by adam15 on Mar 21, 2009 0:04:05 GMT -5
okay stargazer as a woman please explain this to me.
If YOU had an old ex boyfriend who snuck by your house at night and used x-ray goggles to see what you and your family were doing what would you call it??
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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 21, 2009 20:05:46 GMT -5
okay stargazer as a woman please explain this to me. If YOU had an old ex boyfriend who snuck by your house at night and used x-ray goggles to see what you and your family were doing what would you call it?? It depends on who the ex boyfriend is and the context of why he did it. Not everything is black and white in life, you know? Lots of greys and lots of reasons why sometimes people (all people) do weird things. Besides, I've never said that what Superman did (spying that one time) was correct. It obviously WASN'T, and that was the whole point- to humanize this demi-god. To show that his biggest weakness is not kryptonite but his undying love for this human woman named Lois. So, according to the circumstances in which he did it (the spying), it's understandable. And human. And it was just that one time, not a habit and done without malice but out of concern, curiousity and longing. So, if an ex boyfrind did that to me out of longing, love and concern, like Superman, I'd be flattered. As long as it wasn't a habit.  |
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Post by adam15 on Mar 21, 2009 21:00:45 GMT -5
Where can we draw the line with Superman's bad behavior though even if it's not habitual? What if Lois is viciously killed and Superman brutally kills the gang responsible ala Anakin in AOTC? Wouldn't that humanize him? I mean the desire to kill the people who killed a loved one is human right? So if Superman did that would he be more humanized or would it simply go against his character?
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Post by Sverdlovski on Mar 21, 2009 21:11:49 GMT -5
Singer's biggest mistake was to promise and not deliver a story where Superman returns to a world that doesn't welcome him back. Everybody but Lois loved him immediatelly when he reappeared in the movie.
I had imagined a story where Luthor causes Superman to leave and when Supes come back, everyone has moved on with their lives, including Luthor, who is now a corporate mongul, owner of half of Metropolis. In STM we see that Luthor would be unstoppable if it wasn't for Superman. What would happen if Superman is out of the picture? That's what I wanted to see: a world where Luthor rose in power and pratically controls the city. THAT would be a challenge for Superman, to fight against the now "saviour" of Metropolis, the man that stood up to the challenges that arrived when Superman fled.
So, in my mind, what would happen i: Luthor would try to break Superman emotionally (turning the world against him) and then breaking him physically (killing him).
Lois would have moved on, involved with someone else (but without the kid), and even the Daily Planet would be going trhough financial problems, almost facing bankrupcy. (don't say it's similar to SIV, SIV was a piece of shit and no one in their right mind remembers that)
Anyway, Luthor would find a way to provoke a major incident in the city and would blame Superman. The public, still wondering if they really want this "superpowered alien that can see through walls" around their lives, reject Superman almost completely. There would be some people that still loved Superman, but the majority of the world wouln't trust him.
With Superman broken, with everything he liked and stood for now in ruins, Luthor throws the final blow: reveling his master plan, that he had planned everything that happened, he sent Superman away from Earth, and then waited for him to come back to distroy his credibility and finally killing him.
So, the final act would be similar to SR, Superman would be dying, get saved by Lois - who still loved him - and would proceed to save the world. The public would finally realize how important Superman is, almost sacrifing himself to save their lives, and would gradually support him back.
At the end of the movie, Luthor would not succeed in killing Superman (obviously), people would love Supes but still Luthor would be seen as a respected man.
I think it would be a way to 1) update the characters, especially Luthor, who would be seen as an evil genius 2)bring Superman back to our world, a world that has seen other heroes like Xmen, Spiderman, Blade etc and, even was desperate to see the grandaddy of them all again on the big screen.
My 2 cents
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Post by adam15 on Mar 21, 2009 21:13:56 GMT -5
Perfectly said. |
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Post by fggafagas on Mar 21, 2009 21:31:44 GMT -5
I wonder how businessman Lex could be accomplished realistically, though. I don't really understand how he got out after only 5 years after first trying to destroy the west coast and then aligning himself with Zod. Wasn't there something in the script or the novel adaptation about Superman not being around to testify against Lex that resulted in his early release?
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Post by Sverdlovski on Mar 21, 2009 21:52:44 GMT -5
I wonder how businessman Lex could be accomplished realistically, though. I don't really understand how he got out after only 5 years after first trying to destroy the west coast and then aligning himself with Zod. Wasn't there something in the script or the novel adaptation about Superman not being around to testify against Lex that resulted in his early release? Well, I don't think the intrinsicacies of how Luthor became powerful are important... Luthor is Luthor, the greatest criminal mind bla bla bla. He just is, he's unstoppable. What matters is he was there when the world suffered the consequences of Superman's absence, he has helped the people and the city to rebuilt themselves through the dark times. He couldve said he was just trying to protect the world aligning himself with Zod, like the lame excuse for Vichy France's existance. And he was never convicted for trying to destroy California, he was sent to prision for earlier crimes... Anyway, he's a new man now, redeemed. And America is the land of opportunity, of self-made people, and loves a good comeback story. All arguments Luthor could use in his favor. |
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Post by fggafagas on Mar 21, 2009 22:41:43 GMT -5
I wonder how businessman Lex could be accomplished realistically, though. I don't really understand how he got out after only 5 years after first trying to destroy the west coast and then aligning himself with Zod. Wasn't there something in the script or the novel adaptation about Superman not being around to testify against Lex that resulted in his early release? Well, I don't think the intrinsicacies of how Luthor became powerful are important... Luthor is Luthor, the greatest criminal mind bla bla bla. He just is, he's unstoppable. What matters is he was there when the world suffered the consequences of Superman's absence, he has helped the people and the city to rebuilt themselves through the dark times. He couldve said he was just trying to protect the world aligning himself with Zod, like the lame excuse for Vichy France's existance. And he was never convicted for trying to destroy California, he was sent to prision for earlier crimes... Anyway, he's a new man now, redeemed. And America is the land of opportunity, of self-made people, and loves a good comeback story. All arguments Luthor could use in his favor. Well I suppose it's possible, especially when you're talking about one of the smartest comic villains of all time. It would have made a better movie if Superman had a more valid reason for leaving Earth, along with him coming back to a world that rejects him and an untouchable Lex. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 21, 2009 23:36:12 GMT -5
It's definitely open enough to interpretation--- The original Siegel and Shuster comix never really seemed to examine the psychology as deep as we talk about it here in the forum.
My own take on it is that Superman has the biggest burden, because even though he grew up human, he had to grow up with an ENORMOUS amount of responsibility as he was stronger than any other human being--- and whereas other teens could act out, or be angry while going through 'growing pains'--- Supes/Clark was guided by the Kents' love, even as he had a keen awareness that he wasn't human.... or like anyone else on the planet, including his parents.
Is Superman repressed? Well.... I think he'd have been conditioned early on how much damage his strength could bring--- (remember in the movies, he was already able to lift ends of trucks as a child).... and somehow curb extremely negative emotions- including the 'worst of us' as mentioned.
I love the scene in STM where Supes/Clark's frustration comes out, and Pa Kent helps him remember that he's got to be better than everyone else on the planet, when it comes to anger management. (He of course doesn't phrase it that way, but he gets the message across).
But- again, the character is open enough to interpretation--- perhaps he is more human than 'god', but personally I like the idea that what makes him Superman is more than just the powers, but his personal nature that DOESN'T have the worst in us.
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Post by stargazer01 on Mar 22, 2009 1:44:35 GMT -5
Where can we draw the line with Superman's bad behavior though even if it's not habitual? What if Lois is viciously killed and Superman brutally kills the gang responsible ala Anakin in AOTC? Wouldn't that humanize him? I mean the desire to kill the people who killed a loved one is human right? So if Superman did that would he be more humanized or would it simply go against his character? *sigh* Of course Superman should never kill out of revenge. He is SUPERMAN! He is the most virtuous man of Earth. But he isn't Jesus either. He can make some mistakes and have doubts like us human since he was raised by humans. He should only kill when there is no other option. BTW, did you have a problem when Supes killed a powerless Zod in Superman II? I did. |
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Post by adam15 on Mar 22, 2009 2:08:08 GMT -5
Hmmmm... I guess I didn't have a problem with Superman "killing" Zod Non and Ursa but then again it was never really confirmed; only implied. I was on such a high seeing Superman deal with Zod that the whole question about the villains being dead or not never really occured to me. Maybe thy were dead or maybe just stranded in the fortress or maybe they fell into a crystaline prison cell, I dunno. Superman could have easily picked the villains up later and brought them to jail. Obviously Donner's arctic patrol scene is the superior way to deal with the villains because, yes, Superman doesn't kill. Likewise, Superman spying on Lois is an inferior way to deal with the character of Superman because it is out of his character. I know that you are content with the spying/stalking scene (like I was content with Superman's implied "killing" of the villains in SII).... but just as I agree that the arctic police was the way to go in SII, don't you believe that Superman spying on Lois could have been handeled differently in SR? I know you love SR, you love Routh, and to you Singer and Routh are right up there with Donner and Reeve... proof that there is indeed no accounting for taste But can't you acknowledge that Superman spying on Lois is a bit off character for him? |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 22, 2009 12:06:56 GMT -5
I think what makes the scene more acceptable (imo) is that just before that scene, Lois is going on and on with Kent on the sidewalk about how much what Superman did bothered her before he left..... but since he didn't feel like he was ready to ask her directly about his leaving, he wanted to (1) check in on her, (as I presume he would have regularly before it all to make sure she was ok and not in danger, as she always needs rescuing in the comix and movies)- and (2) see if he could understand what was bugging her, and (3) maybe he was planning on knocking on the door to talk to her.
Without the scene of Lois ranting about Superman on the sidewalk, yes, I agree, it would be a bit odd for Supes to just barge in on her house w/x-rays. With the sidewalk scene, he could have seen it as a bit of an invitation.
Is it a little out of character? So would Superman sleeping with Lois in SII would seem out of character- it depends on how 'pure' one would need to see how Superman is characterized.
Also--- Superman's grappling with morals and personal feelings are all of what SR is about (Which is why some didn't care for the depth of it)--- when Lois goes in to kiss Supes on the rooftop of the Daily Planet, he doesn't stop her--- but when she stops herself, he realizes that it's not right for either of them to cross that line, when she's involved with another guy at the time.
Heroism and ideals are easy when there are no tougher choices or sacrifices, so putting the big guy in situations where he could be compromised is what made SR great.... and what made some uncomfortable with SR...
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