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Post by adam15 on Apr 13, 2009 10:45:27 GMT -5
I don't really know where this scenario came from... when was Lois going to die in Superman II? Some people say she was going to fall into a crevasse, was this going to happen AFTER Lois punched Ursa into the pit? Was Lois gonna lose her balance and then fall in?  I think that while they did take SII's ending and put it into STM, that ending NEVER involved Lois dying... that was invented soley for STM. Would anyone dispute this? Some have rationalized that the turning back time ending would have worked better in SII because Superman was basically gonna have a dead wife... however, I don't think Lois was going to die or even COULD have died in SII considering the footage they had shot. |
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Post by adam15 on Apr 13, 2009 18:24:46 GMT -5
I mean I'm very curious about this... didn't Mankewitzc even say that Lois was gonna die by falling into the crevasse in SII? If that was going to happen how were they gonna use Donner's break up kiss and balcony goodbye? This has seriously always puzzled me.  |
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Post by MAVERICK on Apr 13, 2009 21:58:54 GMT -5
Ya know what?.......This is a very good question you pose!
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Apr 13, 2009 23:53:33 GMT -5
This has always puzzled me as well. Whenever this discussion comes up (Lois dying in SII), it's been my understanding that the villains were supposed to kill her somehow. I agree that theoretically the turning-back-time would work better at the end of SII as Superman and Lois have been through so much together at that point. In STM, they've only just met and never even kissed, though the emotion of the scene where he finds her body carries you through and allows you to accept the unbelievable idea of Superman reversing time.
If the villains had indeed killed Lois at the end of SII, there would have been none of that emotional build up, and it would have come off (IMO) as a cheap deus ex machina to not only reverse her death, but defeat the villains and undo the entire movie. The turning-back-time works in STM because at that time you are totally invested in Superman's feelings, it's for one specific purpose (to save Lois), and it's only a few minutes. He'd already saved the world, just not the person he cared most about. In SII he would be using it as an ultimate cheat to accomplish both tasks.
They must have had some kind of plan for this though, they were filming simultaneously after all (NOT back-to-back). I wonder who could answer this question; we certainly can't count on Donner's memory anymore.
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Post by tomahawk on Apr 14, 2009 2:36:29 GMT -5
I believe it was an idea that was originally in a very early Puzo draft and hence was jettisoned quite early. But in deciding to move turning back time to S1, they needed a catalyst for Superman to do it and therefore that early idea was recalled.
I remember hearing that in some official capacity, just can't remember what that capacity was.
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Post by superman on Apr 14, 2009 3:32:03 GMT -5
I've read the Original Donner Script at least 10 times, you can read it here: superman.rossiters.com/binaries/superman_2-mankiewicz.pdf...but - it does not mention anything about Lois dying... the scene is identical to the movie, which is good in some way... not so good in others. The question here I guess was that originally, Superman was suppose to reverse time to get Lois to come back to life... and that that idea was used in S1. I thought only the turning back time trick was 'borrowed' from S2; not Lois dying. Lois death in part 1 was used because 'in case' part 1 flopped, they didn't have to invest money in a sequel. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Apr 14, 2009 7:05:15 GMT -5
I still think the ballsiest possible ending for S2 would be with Lois knowing Superman is Clark. If I ever make a fan cut, there will be no memory kiss, and no turning back time. They say goodbye, he returns the flag, he flies into space, credits, and then the bully revenge as a post-credit bit.
Back on subject, good question by Adam. And yeah, I've scoured that script too, and I can't figure out where it came from, or where it would fit in! It would obviously be waaaaay too much for her to croak in both movies!
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Apr 14, 2009 10:07:25 GMT -5
Yep, I agree. In context of III and IV it would have worked. Shame they never had the courage of their convictions and inserted a laughable "memory kiss" and fuck me - they even used it again in IV  |
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Post by Jimbo on Apr 14, 2009 10:11:25 GMT -5
and fuck me - they even used it again in IV Yeah, and then she claimed that she still knew that Clark was Superman. "I remember everything." Wait, WHAT?! So, she's been playing a game all this time, pretending not to know that Clark is Superman? So after he kisses her yet again, she again gets all hazy. Is she faking it this time too? Ugh, what a mess. |
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Post by stargazer01 on Apr 14, 2009 10:13:45 GMT -5
but SIV doesn't really count...  |
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Post by Jimbo on Apr 14, 2009 10:38:14 GMT -5
There's still no denying the WTF-ness of it.
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Post by stargazer01 on Apr 14, 2009 10:45:17 GMT -5
I'm not. Both SIII and SIV are major  moments.. er, movies...  |
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Post by adam15 on Apr 14, 2009 11:18:17 GMT -5
So I guess that the consensus is that Lois was never gonna die in SII. I think I remember the Superman docs saying the genesis of the idea was Puzo making a joke about having Lois be killed in Superman which no one took seriously. THEN when the time came to use SII time reversal ending for STM they brought that old idea back from the dead so to speak and the rest is history.
Thus, it can be concluded IMHO that the time reversal DOES work best in STM than it would have in SII because, placed there, Lois dies and the act is more meaningful. In SII it would have been just a deau ex machina with no intimate emotional involvment.
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Post by Jimbo on Apr 14, 2009 11:22:01 GMT -5
Frankly, it never works. It just works less badly in STM.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Apr 14, 2009 12:11:47 GMT -5
I still think the ballsiest possible ending for S2 would be with Lois knowing Superman is Clark. If I ever make a fan cut, there will be no memory kiss, and no turning back time. They say goodbye, he returns the flag, he flies into space, credits, and then the bully revenge as a post-credit bit.Back on subject, good question by Adam. And yeah, I've scoured that script too, and I can't figure out where it came from, or where it would fit in! It would obviously be waaaaay too much for her to croak in both movies! i agree completely. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 14, 2009 12:33:47 GMT -5
I think there's a couple of things that still need to be taken into account:
In the Mankiewicz script, the world has fallen apart and key capitals around the world have been totally decimated. In a very old summary of the Superman scripts by Mediascene (a now extinct magazine)- One of the influences for Supes to turn back time was implied to be to save MANY lives lost, and that the world had been trashed so badly by the criminals at that time- that it made the most sense to Supes.
This isn't certain, but it would make more sense, if most of the film would have been shot with a darker and more violent tone set by the Mankiewicz script (criminals trash the world in cgi scenes)--- that Donner would have wanted some happy resolution for it. That might have given more emotional weight for Supes (and for the audience) to want to turn back time, if Lois wasn't going to get killed.
It'd be interesting to know when the decision was made to change this- we know that Hackman and Brando had set start and stop dates--- so one would assume that the decision was made early- but then again, Donner was able to make time to shoot different prison escapes (one which NO ONE seemed to know about on any forum)--- so who's to say that there isn't also an alternate Fortress of Solitude sequence where Lois dies as well?
In my opinion, though- I have a gut feeling that Lois dying in the Fortress was too dark, but that there would have been SOME transitional bit (never shot) where Superman comes to the conclusion to turn back time.... the strength of STM was that there was always a sense of emotional weight to Supes' choices--- I'd assume that with the footage and better editing, we would have seen some sort of inner conflict with Supes as he makes the decision to turn back time, and not just fly straight into doing it, as in the Thau cut.
At the very least, we might have had Brando's voice over warning (presumably set to a non-smiling take of Supes turning back time) if Donner didn't have it put into STM, so that there might be some consequence (hopefully) possible for a sequel, and not seem like such a trivial act that Supes can do at any given point in time.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Apr 14, 2009 12:54:58 GMT -5
there were a lot of plots and " endings " that were bandied about and some of it had to go because some of it was mutually exclusive to other scenarios.
i remember , that at one point , Jor-El punishes superman for breaking the time barrier in STM by having the crystal archives blow up - but that was scrapped because the crystal archive was needed to give superman his super-resurrection in SII.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 14, 2009 23:03:03 GMT -5
I'm also cool with Lois knowing his secret. If I had a fan cut, I'd do something similar to what Veris did (flashbacks during the kiss), except it wouldn't have her forget what happened. It would show that what they experienced was too important for both of them, and it wouldn't be fair for Lois to forget against her will. Same scene, different context. I actually thought up the idea the night before Veris posted his video on youtube (sure brought a smile on my face lol). I would've also used more upltifting music. I've actually seen someone else do exactly that (without flashbacks). 3 minutes in: www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyYum8x2KW4&feature=relatedI love the look on Perry's face. Again, scene being used for different context. heck, I would even take it a step farther. After that scene, use a cut-away shot of New York (to imply it's the next day) and show the pizza scene. The context could be the two of them just goofin' around since they're both in on the secret. To make it work even better, use the shot of her giving Clark a thumbs up AFTER she tells him "You know you're really super", and he looks at her cautiously. Just remove Clark saying he'll pay for the whole thing, since you don't wanna use the same shot of her twice. Maybe tighten up the dialogue a bit too. Sorry for ramblin' guys. I've had a ton of ideas for my own edit since before the donner cut was even released, but neither the time nor the patience to put it to work lol. Plus I like so many things that I've seen already done by others (here's looking at you CAM and Veris), that I wouldn't want to take anyone else's ideas. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2009 0:31:10 GMT -5
Agreed, agreed....*sigh*....
I have to admit- if turning back time causes a big mess, how much more of a mess is Lois's not remembering Supes is Clark throughout the movie series?
(*It's one of the few cases where SR's quasi-continuity bothered me a bit- I didn't mind Supes and Lois having a kid, but did or didn't Supes reveal his identity to Lois after sleeping with her? If he did the Lester memory kiss or turned back time.....we get into that mess again....If he never revealed his secret to her after sleeping with Lois, that's not too cool, either...)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2009 0:43:34 GMT -5
For my part, I'd LOVE it if anyone wanted to 'borrow' any of my ideas or composite footage, it's flattering (of course assuming noone's getting me in trouble for it) --- For my own two cents, would love to see a thread of your ideas for the cut, too! As an aside, my cut (revamp is now actually 75% done! joyjoy)- has a LOT of borrowed ideas here and there- but primarily, it's to satisfy (as much as possible) my own tastes - and to end my own obsession with SII already. I hope it doesn't offend any other fan cutters- the ultimate aim is just (similiar to Maverick's) to make a version of Superman II that I can watch over and over again without cursing Lester or Thau's name. ;p Someone once mentioned that in a way, Superman II has become more than just a film, it's probably one of the great fan edit challenges of all time. I think we all would have preferred to have had enough Donner footage available to REALLY see his version, but at least there's alternative cuts than just the Lester and Thau ones to look at.... |
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 15, 2009 1:29:06 GMT -5
What if Non melted the Eiffel Tower with his X-Ray vision just as Lois was hidden under the elevator?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2009 1:51:34 GMT -5
I think that's the start of another fan cut.... |
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Post by joey m on Apr 15, 2009 2:50:29 GMT -5
You would think somebody, especially Mankiewicz, would remember if Lois had died twice on camera. I think they were doing the whole thing by the seat of their pants and II just never got that far along. About the end, Donner LOVES a happy, upbeat ending. I have a feeling he loves the pizza scene and would have kept it, or done some very similar new version of it if necessary. If he didn't do his own memory kiss to lead into that, he would have zapped her with a Krypton roofie crystal or something and everything would be a-okay in the end.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 15, 2009 3:15:53 GMT -5
Probably, but for seat-of-their-pants filmmaking, they sure accomplished a lot- considering!  |
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EvilSupes
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Post by EvilSupes on Apr 15, 2009 9:36:06 GMT -5
I'm not. Both SIII and SIV are major moments.. er, movies... Erm, excuse me Superman III? Leave this thread right now... ;D |
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