EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Sept 15, 2009 16:27:31 GMT -5
CAAM!! I got your little package. I love the smiley face by the way ;D
Ok, I haven't really had time to watch it all yet, I've mostly just been flicking through. So far all I've looked at is Disc 1.
Here are my first impressions:
I LOVED the beginning, so much more Donner like than Donner's own cut! I think the original STM titles with the SII Lester past footage and that little added bits really improve the beginning A LOT! I felt like I was watching a Donner sequel WAAAY more than how I felt with the Donner cut. Really superb work there.
Understandably things are unfinished, I noticed that with some of the rotoscoping, but in advance I knew that, so no worries there.
The only thing (which I think you probably are already aware of) is the sound editing. Sound levels are bit all over the place with lots of 'clicking' and overlapping sound transitions. But sound editing can understandably be hard, given the immense task of what you are trying to achieve. For that, I think you should opt for a helping hand with the sound as there's some people here who may be able to help you - especially with things like 5.1 surround sound etc. I only know bits and pieces - sound isn't really my forte.
I think with the right amount of help CAM (because I think help would be very useful in getting things upto final release standard) this cut could possibly be one of the greatest SII fan cuts to ever grace the internet and I truly mean that!
I'll check out the other discs when I have time and give you some more updates with those.
So far, really enjoyed it!
|
|
Conor
New Member
Posts: 1,569
|
Post by Conor on Sept 15, 2009 19:12:02 GMT -5
CAAM!! I got your little package. I love the smiley face by the way ;D.........So far, really enjoyed it! Hmmmmmmmkkk! |
|
EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Sept 16, 2009 3:39:06 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 16, 2009 10:52:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments Evilsupes! Glad you enjoyed what you've seen so far.
I know 1000% what you mean about the sound being all over the place.... To my horror, I've only done sections at a time, and viewed them back sections at a time- only to see the whole thing after the preview and....yeah....experience the rollercoaster sound levels.
Having help on sound would have been great, but even though I thought I was done, I can see ten million things plus that still need help- from rotoscoping on down--- so, I may do some minor work, then throw in the towel, though.
On the net? Hummm..... I was happy to show what was possible, just as other fan cuts showed me other fun possibilities- but I'm still wary about net.
Objectively, I like some bits here and there on my own cut- but ultimately, I do feel letdown and discouraged. Parts I know how to fix, (Sound levels I can) others I don't, (some sound transitions) without all the elements that Thau had access to.
Anyhow, at the minimum, I'm glad to be able to share some of the ideas and what they look like, even if I don't feel confident that it can ever be as smooth as I would like.
|
|
EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Sept 16, 2009 11:18:14 GMT -5
Well CAM, I think if this can be polished up a bit, this will get even better. I don't mind giving a helping hand, and I'm sure other people woun't mind helping you. I see so much potential in this cut, it would be a shame to call it a day. I'm familiar with a few things regarding After Effects myself, with rotoscoping, but only at a very basic level. I'm sure if I got back into it everything would probably click back into place. I'm fairly knowledgeable with Premier and Song Vegas too - those are my 2 favourite video editing programs. I'll admit to not being an expert, but I am also pretty experienced when it comes to video editing from personal projects I've done in my spare time to courses I've been taught at college. From the edits I've seen from other members here, there are some very knowledgeable people here who might like to help. Personally speaking, it would be an honour to help you out but only if you want me to. Anyway, I'll leave this with you to think about.  |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 17, 2009 13:19:59 GMT -5
I REALLY appreciate the offer---
There's some minor adjustments I'm going to make, and I might well take you up on it- late on.... but for now, I'm going to take a long much needed break from SII for awhile, but at least try to fix up the sound levels.
Thanks again!
|
|
|
|
Post by SuperSnooper on Sept 18, 2009 8:03:07 GMT -5
Hey Cam, got your package the other day, when I saw three discs inside I was wondering how many movies I was gonna be seeing!
I've went through it twice, first time it was pretty late at night and I fast forwarded it, stopping and reviewing when I noticed something different, also your Metropolis fight was quite a "trip" to be watching so late! The 2nd time it was in the evening and I watched it carefully making notes.
I know it's just a preview and unfinished, so I'm not going to criticize your effects work or sound edits, just the narrative, in my opinion.
First of all, I thought the prologue was too long, would have loved if you coulda incorporated Non killing the guard from Lester's opening and making the trial a bit more concise. Love the titles coming over the action though, (just a pity Jeff East's name had to be in there) and thought it was an excellent move having the STM action ending as he takes off to chase the missiles and then begin POW! just as he launches the missile into space.
Liked the super imposed shot of Superman when Lois looks over to Clark as she's doodling on the paper, great idea that. Also liked the shots of the stairway of Clark racing down to save Lois.
Liked the fact that you have two Lois testing Clark moments in your cut, though I woulda dubbed that dialogue in the test footage of how crazy Lois was jumping out of the window earlier at Niagara Falls somehow, just to create a sense of expansion on Lois' suspicions.
The NASA scene plays better than what Donner and Lester ever did! I think you used Capricorn One? Just a pity Hal Holbrook distracted from the anonymity of the NASA technicians. Also, maybe cosmonaut Boris could have a better surname than Krautman (I think it was?)
When Superman saves the boy from falling, like the Superman III image of him taking off from the cornfield as he flies up with the boy.
I don't know if you're going to clip some of the repetition in your version, especially the similarities between the hick town scene and the Washington incorporation, I think taking as much of the hick town (apologies to anyone from the planet Houston) would be better. Like the Mount Rushmore destruction and the Eiffel tower collapsing, also the Statue of Liberty, with the footage of King Kong (1976). Just a pity you can hear Kong's roar as the helicopter's are shooting.
Also noticed the use of Koyanniqatsi too. Worked very well.
The Metropolis fight was like watching a crazy Manga style animation! Some of the stuff is excellent, especially Superman falling to the ground and Ursa kicking him, that sequence was fantastic! Though a lot of the shots are repeated too much which distracts a lot from your work, if only the Metropolis fight was as explosive and action packed as your ideas though. The fire in the street is a good idea.
Like the fact that they fight and fight and fight and then they stop and then Zod has his conversation with Superman and then they continue to fight. Just too many times seeing the same Non shot, the same "KILL HIM" scream and the shot of Zod screaming "Free!!" If only there was a way of getting raw flying outtake footage to refresh the action.
If you cut down on the Metropolis fight and keep to using those shots once, you will have a damn good sequence when you finish it.
I know the Concorde sequence is nice, but it doesn't really blend in with your cut, standing out like a sore thumb. Also Perry White in the bathroom didn't really make sense if Superman wasn't turning back time. Liked the kiss and the erase sequence.
What was the Margot Kidder movie you used for the waking up scene, The Reincarnation of Peter Proud? I noticed images of Somewhere In Time in the depowering and repowering sequence.
Thought the premiere images at the beginning and end were a nice touch, but wouldn't really be part of a 1980/81 Superman II, though it's a decent tribute.
I'll watch it again and give you more impressions, but I thought it was a good preview edit with some brilliant touches and some better ideas than the Donner cut and Lester's version. I know it's been a long journey and you may be getting sick of it, but give it time and you'll have a very decent version of Superman II. I look forward to seeing any further cuts.
Cheers for sending me the preview!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 19, 2009 7:24:51 GMT -5
Hi Supersnooper, Thanks for the feedback in detail- I wrote a lengthy response twice- but unfortunately, my computer messed up, and am this is now a third hour of trying to trying to respond! So- in brief (before the computer gets wacky again): Just a few quick responses: * "Amityville Horror"- but good guess with "Reincarnation of Peter Proud"- can't even find that film (though I tried) on dvd- I know there a few other films Kidder did at the time that might have usable footage that might fit- "Somewhere in Time" hopefully works, I've been purposefully stingy in using that one, because of the continuity errs. (No blood on his face for the repowering scene) * The COncorde scene was planned much bigger/longer, but had problems with footage/etc.- * I 'borrowed' specific bits from RKS and Verisimilitude (hope they're ok with this, I'm assuming it was ok)- as well as had influence from other cuts- so that's why there's also no credits- Seeing a number of cuts, I know they've all had left their mark and didn't want to leave anyone out, and I knew that would probably happen, so I thought not to. It's 'called' a camcut, but just for easy reference. I think of it more as a 'tossed salad' cut with what I liked from everyone's work I saw, plus some ideas of my own. * Removing repetition and using restraint on footage I agree should be considered for a polish, I just am so aware of things being used a million times in my own footage and what was needed to make a scene somewhat coherent, I'd have some difficulty knowing when/where, so feedback helps. Thanks again! |
|
EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Sept 19, 2009 7:38:44 GMT -5
I've had a chance to flick through the other discs now, and I must say the most stand out point was the metropolis fight. The amount of stuff going on and the footage of the crowd, buildings, FX, was all very, very good.
However as Supersnooper mentioned it needs a bit of a trim, and Zod's 'FREE' shoutings get a little bit dull. There are also some rotoscoped shots that are superior than others, and I think in this instance less is more.
I also liked the memory kiss part taken from another cut, along with some of your own stuff as it works very well. But I think I would propose a different memod into 'memory wiping' Lois. Someone said before in this forum that the chamber Supes steps into at the end in the FOS could turn back time or erase the villains and Lois remembering all that has happened - this concept takes the best elements of the memory kiss and the turning back time sequence.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Sept 20, 2009 16:24:48 GMT -5
ok-ok-ok-ok whew!! look , CAM , sorry i took so long , been swamped. ok-while i am anxious to do an exhaustive ,scene by scene critique- but alas- my time is short. so- here's a short version: we got the CAM-cut and we LOVED IT . LOOOOVVVEEED ITTTT. even mrs.jor ( who , as an aside , has been a really indulgant supportive gal in regard to my superman obsession- but it has been a bit much for her with my constant constant constant watching ) sat and watched the whole thing. ok , first- the opening i dont know where CAM found that SII premiere footage , all those celebs ( eddie murphy !! ) going to see SII- then segue into the film itself!! genius!! you took the approach donner had for STM-intro and took it to a new level. wicked sweet. LOVED IT. the comic book: is that YOUR hand cam? loved that it was in color too. backed it up and watched it twice. the credits- man , that HAD to be a CHORE. putting SII credit swooshes ( we are SO nerdy ) over a new montage... watched it twice again. skip ahead skip ahead...it's all really cool. the attack on washinton: superb. LOVED it. great job- bigger scale , more violence. ( when i saw the GIJOE trailer i KNEW you would cop that scene of the tower falling!! i KNEW IT !! ) what made it so cool is there is NO indication that zod ( a supposedly genius strategist ) wastes any time in a podunk. they immediately assert themselves on the worlds superpowers and - HAVOC! i am impressed with how you took vintage footage and made the " newscast " scenes , with scenes of people watching in terror at home. the pink bear : as the vocal minority , the superiority of the story material in " blank bullets" makes up for the limtied production value. frankly- i am TOO familiar with these movies and my own personality makes it difficult for me to ever fully disengage the analytical part of my mind. thats just how i am i geuss. i have to be scrutinising everything anyway . so when i see pink bears- i am not in love with the scene, i'm thinking of script material , it's pinewood - the james bond stage - its 3 years since STM began shooting ...but what's the story? whats the point ? i'm a blank-bullets guy. repowering scene: was familiar with this already, CAM sent me a preview- but i still watch it happily. very cool selection of scenes. i stand by my support of that extra chris reeve footage from some other movie. it looks good. metropolis battle: CAM , what you did with cut-and-paste, rotoscoping... dude...its amazing ..over the top. listen- love ya bro, you put more effort into a "fancut" than anyone i have seen- so- please please please don't take this the wrong way. at the end of the day YOU should make what YOU want to see. it isnt that anything is " wrong" . but having said that ( i never imagined this wold be the case ) its too long. ok- i understand- you have a LOT of ideas. but you are limited to footage from 4 flicks to cull material to create the scenes you want to see. on the whole, the sequence is a lot of fun to watch. but you are limited to only so much source material which inevitably leads to repetive scenes. if it were me- and its only me - i would lean towards the most effective shots, and limit the re-use of source shots to a maximum of TWO times. two clips of supes in this pose, two shots of non in this pose etc etc. and i would give preferance to the shots that use as little post-80's footage-for-backgrounds as possible. btw- the times square scenes with indy movie posters were duly noted  all-in-all its fun to watch , could be trimmed. ( liked the SR music ) the finale: when you mentioned you were going to do what verisimilitude did ( whatever happened to him..? ) and actually depict EXACTLY what lois does and does not remember i thought you meant you were going to use his work. ut you actually made your own sequence and it works quite nicely. so, thanks again- your hard work paid off- once again i watch SII as if it were a new movie. gawd i love it here !! btw- jimbo- i recently came accross your SII !! it was in a stack of dvd's wifey found in a box by the old tv - was looking for that !! btw- EVERYONE : PLEASE , if you watch his or any other cut of any superman flick please note it in the survey. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 21, 2009 3:59:45 GMT -5
Hey Jorl,
Thanks for the lengthy review & really glad that you liked it--- Though, as I mentioned, for a time I was happy with the cut--- but more and more I'm seeing how rough it reallly is and how much needs adjustment and time/work (ugh)....
It's an understatement to say that it's been really interesting to me to read how varied the responses have been, and how valid everyone's point of view has been over the choices I've made in this rough cut.
(So far, I think the moon cutaways, credits, and depowering have gotten the best responses- the other portions are understandably more mixed.... I'm mixed myself on the other parts)
What is of a uniform opinion is that the Metro battle- at 24 minutes- is way too long, and could use trimming. I agree, though the devil is in the details....((* it's been really difficult making ANY type of structure with the scraps, so I know I can trim it, but it'll take some time to decide what I want to take out--- I know the pain involved in the shots make it hard to just settle on a couple of shots, but in the end it'll be a better movie experience, hopefully))
Also, learning the fx/rotoscope process has been interesting, to say the least. Some of the shots (like Ursa getting hit) were done earlier/sloppier, when I didn't know the program as well--- and other shots I feel a little better on (like the heck's Kitchen bit towards the beginning when all three are chasing Supes)- and it's painful to feel and know that very little (if any) of the shots would really be approved by Donner, with his level of perfectionism.
(In doing some research on friends who work with 3d software, doing some of the Reeve and Villains' battle shots I wanted to do with all 3-d would be impossible on my computer, it turned out...o well...)
Anyhow, I don't know when, but I foresee having to go back to the drawing board eventually on this.... and all the feedback helps. Thanks!
|
|
matt
New Member
Posts: 2,537
|
Post by matt on Sept 21, 2009 12:22:54 GMT -5
Can't wait to see the finished version!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 21, 2009 20:39:17 GMT -5
Thanks.... I THOUGHT I was close to a final draft.... but SII really has turned out (to me) to be the nut that seems impossible to solve to be a 100% satisfying.
In many ways, I now think that the IRC (with maybe extentions of Donner when possible) may be the ultimate way to go, unless WB goes back to the film vaults to get mroe 'real' footage.....
Anyhow, sorry to sound so negative on my own cut- I'm glad that a number of folks here really like some of the new things put together in it..... but I just have to get a fresh mind on the whole thing--- but, for those who are seeing the preview, thanks for sharing your reactions and please continue to post any thoughts pro/con you have,though---
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Sept 21, 2009 20:50:37 GMT -5
CAM, don't you have some discs to watch? |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 22, 2009 3:16:33 GMT -5
I know, I know... I'm workin' on it.... (*actually, I watched both discs--- want to see them again before a lengthy review...comin' soon...!) |
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Sept 25, 2009 14:34:55 GMT -5
one more thing i wanted to mention , that is unique to CAMs effort-
that is the depiction of the metropolis battle being a WORLD-event. i liked theidea of people being glued to the tv watching the news.
the cobbling together of various media to create these scenes was largely successful . i liked that you got the Tv news guy from STM ( superman's first night ) and pasted it next to other news anchors.
good job.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 26, 2009 17:32:09 GMT -5
Thanks Jorl!
After some time has now passed on it and getting different feedbacks, pro and con (thanks to you and everyone else who sent me comments, really appreciated)--- as well as seeing some fresh cuts by Ollie W and Jimbo-
I'm debating on whether or not I can do some quick recuts (but NO more rotoscopes! Blah!)
and swap out more of the more recent film bits that just stick out versus more 70's stuff. It means probably losing a lot of moments I wanted to keep (like Supes' first appearing, the alternate news room) but in the end it's about putting together something that can give the illusion of 'what if Donner stayed on'. In some cases, there's absolutely NOTHING I found besides more recent footage that doesn't quite match as well- (whether from certain camera angles/whatnot)--- but in others, it's possible to pull them out.
One of the things that (unfortunately) I may have to extract is the 'news around the world' bit if I limit it, like Selutron has, to footage that's more to that time period. Will see soon enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by ukdrummajor on Sept 27, 2009 5:24:11 GMT -5
Hi Cam,
Thanks very much for sending those discs to the uk, really appreciated!
Before i give my thoughts on your cut i must explain i am nowhere near as technically minded as some on here regarding rotoscoping etc etc...i wouldn`t have a clue how to even change a fims soundtrack for different scenes!
With that said i must give your cut an overall enjoyment rating of 8 out of 10. As a view to giving more of what Donner might of done i thought it was great. The only thing/part which i felt could be better would be the Metropolis fight, which as others have said, i thought it quite repetitive in shots and went on that little bit too long.
Loved the fact you made the villians more of a realistic threat to the rest of the world rather than the world giving in after only sending a few soldiers to a small hick town!
The bits of other films you cut in for me worked, whilst not being totally technically brilliant (i.e capricorn footage synching etc) i really thought it more realistic especially the footage in white house urging people to get out etc.
I even noticed some shots of supes from SIV make it into the fight!
As i said above on the whole i really enjoyed your vision/cut.
Thanks again!!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 27, 2009 11:10:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback, ukdrummajor, really means a lot.
I thought I was done, but while I think I may go back, knowing what works for others makes me feel more secure that SOME parts work just fine... or good enough.
At this stage, I'm starting to REALLLY wonder what a Donner/Salkind cut (that was supposed to happen but got yanked) years ago would have looked like, without Thau necessarily being involved....
*sigh*
|
|
EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Sept 27, 2009 12:54:01 GMT -5
/me gives CAM an ice cream to cheer him up! |
|
|
|
Post by Ollie W on Oct 7, 2009 22:36:33 GMT -5
REVIEW OF THE CAM CUT
I’ve seen the vast majority of the SII fan cuts and worked on one myself and I can safely say that Cam has attempted to take things to the next level and I commend him for that. Going in I accepted I was watching a preview cut so I knew it wouldn’t be fully refined.
Certainly Cam is attempting to create more of an epic Donner version. However I feel it struggled as far as fun and magical entertainment goes because it was too focused on trying to make each scene bigger then it needed to be. What I think this edit would really benifit from is some concentrated efforts into polishing up Donner’s and Lester’s material rather then creating so many new scenes and shots.
With regards to the quality of the edit from a picture and sound point of view it needs a lot of work. Now I know Cam is well aware about the importance of sound editing. It’s really what sells a fan edit and however much time it takes to get right it’s well worth it.
Picture wise Cam’s working with so many different sources that it’s nearly impossible to achieve a perfect match. The two Selutron scenes featured are amazing but on the big screen they are far from DVD quality. Likewise the RIC footage is still very rough. Cam’s cut also features a lot of footage from films other then those of the Reeve series and I think he is going to have to be a bit more selective about what he puts in because most of it stands out quite badly.
One other thing to do and it’s a certain detail that few fan editors follow through on and that’s cropping the height of the theatrical cut footage to match the DC footage. It may seem like a little thing but it’s very noticeable on a big screen and cropping it makes it all the more seamless.
Now let’s take a look at the film. Please bare in mind that any opinions made are only that of my own.
- I’d cut the premier footage. It’s a novel idea but seeing Eddie Murphy and Steve Martin really kills it for me. Perhaps just open with the Geoffrey Unsworth credit with the crowd in the foreground.
- December 1978? Cut the comic book opening. This film needs to be more of it’s own. In STM the opening fulfilled a purposed. Especially the dissolve from the page showing the Daily planet globe to the real thing.
- There’s a small jump in audio when approaching Krypton.
- The whole prologue is far too long. The scene belongs in STM. Thau shortened it and for good reason. Their may be dialogue in the Thau version that is missed but as I said it’s an STM scene where’s this is a recap and honestly this film has enough recaps as it is.
- Really love the use of the “You will bow down before me Jor-El…..” from the LC cut followed by the shot of the green crystal. Really builds the excitement.
- Great use of the unused oxford footage for the titles.
- The cut from the Directed by Richard Donner credit to the planet earth isn’t very smooth, especially because of the music. Perhaps cut straight from the Donner credit to Supes chasing the missile.
- Love the release of the villains. One of the best takes on this from a fans point of view. Perhaps consider showing the mushroom cloud from the second missile exploding before the shot of Supes flying back to earth.
- I’d tone down Zod shouting “Free” The echo effect is great but he seems to say it twice and then it echoes.
- Music cue as we approach earth needs to fade out much sooner.
- Don’t think Clark getting hit by the cab adds anything to the picture and the shots used from the making of documentary only make the scene more jarring.
- Love the insert shot conveying Supes talking to Jimmy. Very cool.
- During the Lois and Clark meeting with Perry I’m not sure the shots used from the making of are entirely necessary. Quality wise they are pretty raw.
- Daily Planet jump is definitely more exciting in Cam’s cut with the music. Perhaps a few too many shots of Lois falling but I’m guessing this was done to sync everything with the music. The added dialogue of Clark yelling “Lois what are you doing” is nicely done, but it might work better if he just shouts out “Lois”. Overall though this scene is very well put together and probably my favorite edit in the film.
- With Lex in prison I’d try and use the footage from the DC because it looks better then in the LC. Personally I prefer the audio in the DC because at least it’s original audio. Where’s Lester uses a couple of dubs.
- Villains on the moon uses too much Capricorn One footage. Like a lot of scenes in this edit I think Cam’s trying to make this scene bigger then it needs to be. In some ways I prefer the DC/LC take because the astronauts seem more isolated. Perhaps just open with “Huston calling Ardimis two”.
- Really don’t like the LC version of the balloon scene. Much prefer the Donner/Thau take.
- Rescuing the boy. I like how Thau sped up Supes arrival so I miss that shot. Didn’t really think the second of the two new inserted Supes shots adds anything.
- Don’t see any point including the extra head north footage. Granted Thau shouldn’t have broken the scene up with so many dissolves but I think as far as length goes even Baird would’ve trimmed the scene.
- Good attempt to make Brando look like that in STM. Some shots work where's others look oversaturated in either blue or white.
- Music cue from Lex thinking out loud to Lois trying to expose Clark is abrupt.
- I’d cut head south.
- Personally I prefer the blank bullets scene even it’s screen test form to the pink bear reveal. It’s actually ironic that Cam would cut a scene because it’s a little rough when most of the whole edit is a little rough.
- The shot of the villains blasting through the Eiffel tower is ok but the Mount Rushmore footage doesn’t work. So to the new footage of the president. I really think Cam needs to take a look at how much footage from other films is included.
- Not sure about the shot of Ursa flying through the billboard to bring down the car. The action looks a bit too random.
- Why cut Ursa saying “come forward your general wishes to speak”?
- Don’t like the inserted shots of the bodies. Too morbid for a Superman film.
- The Selutron scene is fantastic. But having the villains attack on the small town just prior is a bit repetitive. I’m pretty sure Selutron would’ve cut that scene in favor of the one he created. I really don’t like the extra footage Cam’s added of helicopters taking off and the solders in battle. Again it’s goes back to what I’ve been saying about making scenes bigger then they need to be.
- Depowering is excellent. The shots of Lois in her gown are very nicely done and the music used is much more emotional then that used for the DC. Not sure about the use of the test shots for the depowering. As Roy Field said “a bit too psychedelic".
- The other Selutron scene when questioning the general is very good. However music from the previous scene needs to be adjusted so that the levels match.
- Extra footage trying to evacuate the president isn't needed.
- The change from DC to LC audio isn’t very even during Zod’s confrontation with the president.
- There’s a little pop in the audio where Cam's inserted Clark saying “He knew I heard him….”
- Overall I though the repowering was nicely done. But the inserted shots from the LC don’t match. I think Cam would do better to make the DC footage green rather then trying to match the LC footage with that of Donner’s.
- When he finds the crystal it seems a shame to not use the LC shot of Clark looking closely at it.
- Not sure about the shot Cam’s composed for Clark inserting the crystal.
- The music played over the Whitehouse before Lex enters was too dramatic.
- Why include the Ursa RIC footage? It adds nothing and is bad quality.
- Don’t see a need to show the helicopter footage from STM before we return to the daily planet.
- Music when the villains smash the daily planet cuts out before the cue finishes.
The Battle
Really the battle could’ve been a whole new review in itsef and I’d planned to dissect it shot by shot . But there’s so much going on with this whole sequence that I can’t imagine doing that. I agree with Jor-L5150 that no shot should be used more then twice. Remember less is more and the battle just goes on and on.
- Some of the new dialogue from the crowd eg ‘Superman he’s back’ sounds cheesy and isn’t needed.
- For Superman’s return I don’t think you should use both lines. Forget “freedom of the press”.
- Cut all the Zod ranting; Come to me son of Jor-El, You will bow down before me, Kill him, Come the three of us will crush the son of our jailer, Son of Jor-El prepare to die, Kill him. It really adds nothing and makes Zod more of a cartoony character.
- Really need to trim and cut some of the newly added footage. Guy on the phone with overdubbed audio ‘man this is gonna be good’. The news reporters, ‘graphics I need graphics’. Family at home. Helicopter….etc.
- Love the inclusion of the Supes dialogue “somehow I just can’t hear you Zod". The way Cam handled the RIC footage here is an approach that I wish he used more often. It’s subtle and it adds to the film.
- Cut added dialogue “We must combine our strength”.
- Cut more helicopter
- Cut all the soldiers and just leave it up to Superman.
- Cut even more news reporters.
- Cut airplane and SR music
- What’s with all the inserted shots of people walking down the streets?
- Please cut Nichole Kidman from Batman Forever.
- The movie cuts to mono for a little bit when Non and Ursa lift the bus.
- Added LC audio “Superman fled I don’t believe you" sounds a little rough because the background noise is different.
- The SIV shot of Supes flying to the fortress isn’t necessary and the music doesn’t quite fit.
- Never really liked the FOS force field scene.
- The added explosion shots as they enter look really bad. Though I like the reaction shots from Reeve. Once again subtle changes are better in terms of polishing up this film.
- Some of the added Lex dialogue from the LC sounds a little rough when compared to the DC mix.
- Nice touch adding the patrol car as they fly out of the fortress.
- The mixing of the RIC footage and dialogue into the breakup scene is incredible. However it’s never going to look polished.
- Lois starts her dialogue “it looks so beautiful from up here” whilst still in the fortress.
- Cam's added RIC audio for the balcony goodnight scene. When the dialogue cuts back to the DC it sounds a little rough. Furthermore when the audio changes from DC to LC the music is really compromised. Perhaps just use RIC audio or theatrical audio.
- It’s some good editing for the magic kiss scene but personally I miss the full dialogue.
- The flashbacks really aren’t necessary in my opinion.
- Concord scene adds nothing and is very rough footage.
- Alleyway change is a good addition. I actually had the same idea for my own cut but noticed Clark’s shirt is white in the Clark and Jimmy by the elevator scene and blue for the alleyway change. However it’s barely noticeable.
- Closing of the comic book and audience reaction is unnecessary.
Overall I thought like all the fan cuts Cam’s cut has something to offer. He’s still got a lot of work to do but with the support of his followers I’m sure he can achieve something which he can truly be proud of.
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 8, 2009 11:10:48 GMT -5
I've watched CAM's cut too. My review was pretty long, so I sent it to him as a private message instead of posting it here. If anyone wants me to post it on this thread I will.
I will say this though, I agree with most of Ollie's points here. However, I do disagree on some things:
I don't think the footage of Reeve from other pictures stands out THAT much (would you rather he used footage from "Village of the Damned" j/k lol) It stands out only because his hair is slightly different, and there's no wounds/blood on his face. I've told myself that this is because he's getting his powers back at this moment. Thus, the wounds should disappear. However, if that takes too much imagination/suspending belief, I do think CAM should just edit battle wounds onto his face if he can.
I like the "Making of" close ups of Reeve and Margo in Perry's office. I don't think the footage looks that bad, and I feel the close-ups help with the exposition (or whatever that word is).
Lois falls too fast, agreed. Also agree with Clark just shouting "Lois!!" from the window. Selutron used him shouting "Lois" from the screen test (right before she shoots him with the blank) in his edit of this scene.
I'm still on the fence over which reading I prefer for Lex and Otis in prison. I grew up on the RIC cut, so I like the reading here. I just wish the Donner Cut had the added RIC lines: "Otis, you're brain defines scientific loss, and it's infinite capacity to deteriorate."
Capricorn One footage needs to be trimmed, but other than that I definitely prefer it over the Lester scene. Only thing CAM needs to fix is the names over the heart monitors, as they don't match up with the astronauts names.
I like the 2 added shots of Superman rescuing the boy. I feel it completes the scene more. However, I can see the wires when Superman lands. Only in the LC, not the DC.
Agree about Lex heading north, but since we see so little of Ms. Teschmaker (and Otis) in this movie, I say, the more the better. I'd like to think that had Donner came back, he would've given those 2 more screen time. Possibly re-shot the Prison esape (or had Lex help Otis escape later on in the film, possibly while the world is in upheaval due to the villains destruction), Oval office and DP scenes. Maybe even the FOS scenes too. Probably would've had other "fill in the gap" shots so we don't go so long throughout the film without seeing them ("That was 2 days ago". Maybe we'd actually see them at Lex's lair getting their supplies to head north, and driving to Washington D.C). Though granted, Zod and co. are the villains of this movie, so maybe the less of Otis and Eve, the better.
I like the shots of the bodies. Shows that the villains are serious. After all, that's what we've been clamoring for all these years. To see the villains as they were originally intended.
I LOVE the added shots of the helicopters and the soldiers shooting at Non (though it does need a bit of trimming). It's a great segue from the first Sel clip to the next. The volume is too loud though.
The test shots during the depowering are a quiet out there. I also don't like the 2 shots of Superman splitting apart. Granted I get what CAM is going for, as it's happening in his mind. But I think it means using your imagination a little too much. But for what it's worth, better to see Reeve's face rather than the body double covering his face with his hand against the wall.
The only thing I like about the evacuating the president part is the line "We're gonna have to get you to safety". Use it only as a voice over as the president is looking at the tv after the monument has fallen. Then immediately have the villains crash in.
Don't think we need the LC shot of him looking closely at the crystal. The change in hairstyle and face bruises/blood is jarring enough. Plus, I feel Reeve in the DC does it right. He looks at it for a brief moment, and quickly puts it to use. The only reason he stared at it longer in the LC was since they knew they wouldn't be using any Brando footage, they had to give the scene more impact and make it last longer.
The shot of Clark inserting the crystal is actually the shot of Brando taking the crystal out at the beginning of part 1, with some editing done to make the jacket sleeve match up. I like how he did that.
I LOVE the added Ursa RIC line. I think it adds to her viciousness. I wish CAM had added her extra RIC line on the moon. Maybe as a voice over as they're flying away, just have them talking: "And you will have everything you want." "Men, to KILL!!". Just don't use "And I will lead". I've done this myself, and her line actually goes perfect with the music cue as they're flying away.
The battle does deserve it's own review. I did dissect it shot by shot, and told CAM what works and what doesn't. Pretty much agree with everything you say here except:
A few of the Zod lines work (when they're not repeated, and used only as voice-overs). I really loved the echo when he says "Come and kneel before Zod!! ZOD!!!" However, I've edited it so we don't have a close-up of people's faces when he says it. Instead we hear it as they're flying after him.
I think some of the helicopter footage works. Just for the shot for Superman noticing them being there. It add more scale to what's happening. As long as we don't see the copter shooting at the villains or it crashing. Other than that, all the other new footage has to go (family at home, newsroom, soldiers, airplane and SR music, people walking down the streets, the newer Times Square footage, Nicole Kidman, etc...)
I like the deleted FOS force field scene. More Lex humor. The line "He is one, we are three." should be cut since Zod says it again a minute later in the fortress. My only problem with the scene is that it was edited by Lester (guess he planned on using it at some point), and we're stuck with Non sounding like an angry wounded dog here.
I REALLY wish Thau had gone ALL OUT and gotten the original DC readings of the lines for EVERY DC scene. This deleted scene is a perfect example. Same goes for Don's Diner scene. I can tell that it was all Lester dubs until the very end ("I have to go back" etc...) Villains on the moon, Zod talking to the president, Lex at the White House. All these scenes are DC, but we still hear Stamps' deeper Lester dubbed voice in MOST of the shots. Thankfully we hear his actual readings at the DP and the FOS. And yes, I understand that his voice is higher. I think Veris made the perfect marriage in his edit. Using Stamps' DC readings, but lowering the pitch of his voice. Oh, and let's not forget in the "Lex head's South" scene, when he says "I'll push you into something Miss. Teschmaker, shut up." That's the Hackman double saying it, not Gene.
The full dialogue at the DP the next morning fleshes out the scene better, but Margo looks so different, the acting is so wooden, and the scene overall just looks very cheap. Not to mention she repeats the same dialogue from the DC break up scene, though with a different context. I like how most of it's gone here, but I've done an edit of it myself where I take out some of the dialogue, while still keeping the majority of the scene.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ollie W on Oct 8, 2009 22:27:56 GMT -5
I don't think the footage of Reeve from other pictures stands out THAT much (would you rather he used footage from "Village of the Damned" j/k lol) It stands out only because his hair is slightly different, and there's no wounds/blood on his face. I've told myself that this is because he's getting his powers back at this moment. Thus, the wounds should disappear. However, if that takes too much imagination/suspending belief, I do think CAM should just edit battle wounds onto his face if he can. I actually don't have a problem with Cam using shots of Reeve from other films. I was speaking about footage from films not containing Reeve. For example the shots he's added to the first Selutron scene with helicopters taking off from the roof and the soldiers in battle. Oh and don't get me started on the added Mount Rushmore footage. All this sort of footage stands out really badly. What I liked about Selutron's work was that it was mostly subtle and he was very careful with the use of source material. The Villains attack on the soldiers outside the Whitehouse is a prime example of this. I still think Cam's trying to make the movie bigger then it needs to be and I think it's more representative of how a Superman II might have been filmed today rather then in 1978-79. Especially the battle which is absolute chaos. |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Oct 8, 2009 23:44:14 GMT -5
Ah ok, I misunderstood you. Yeah, agree about the footage from other films. I was hoping Selutron or CAM would've done what was on the "Donner Speculation" page concerning Mt. Rushmore. Show Ursa approaching from afar, and have her change the faces with with her heat vision, while Zod delivers his speech in D.C, while Non is destroying the Eiffel Tower (or any other monuments).
But I must stand by CAM's use of helicopters and soldiers shooting at Non to combine the two Sel clips. I used Sel's clips in my first draft of my cut, and because the scenes end so abruptly, it just looked jarring. So I'm glad he found a way to combine them. I've trimmed this scene for the second draft of my cut so it's a lot shorter, and IMO works a lot better.
|
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,823 
|
Post by atp on Oct 9, 2009 0:53:57 GMT -5
I was hoping Selutron or CAM would've done what was on the "Donner Speculation" page concerning Mt. Rushmore. Show Ursa approaching from afar, and have her change the faces with with her heat vision, while Zod delivers his speech in D.C, while Non is destroying the Eiffel Tower (or any other monuments). Me too. I was hoping this would have been in the Donner Cut. |
|
