Almost 2 years later...thoughts on the Donner Cut?

[ye5man]

We're all aware of that, thanks Jake.

But we don't appreciate you slagging off this community on IMDB forums because we collectively didn't like the product. We are all incredibly grateful for the effort but the results were poor. As many say, as deleted scenes they are a big Wow, but as a movie, it fails miserably.

[Jacob]

is that why you guys don't like me..

someone made a post about the attitude of the room, which I had agree to a certain point of view. why is probably why you guys got a new forum.. due to problems with others.

I am not trying to start a fight on my first day back to the new forum.

someone pointed out that what we got is not what you expected.. that is true.. you guys thought it would be more of the restored international cut.. which is fine.. that was not the point. if you read the script for the original superman 2 that tom M wrote.. you would see that it was differnt then even what we thought it was going to be.

I read the script, so I knew some of it.. more of the line of what they were trying to do.
you guys are lucky that you got two superman movies in one year. much less one superman movie.. I would think you could be a little grateful and not reject both of them.

I bet Jack would come back to the room if you guys were actually nice to him and not give him crap like you did before. He does like answering the many questions from the fans about superman and his other films.. as you see if you look at the IMDB forum.

Jacob

[ye5man]

Aug 2, 2008 13:51:19 GMT -5 Jacob said:

you guys are lucky that you got two superman movies in one year. much less one superman movie.. I would think you could be a little grateful and not reject both of them.

See, I have a problem with this statement.

Were we "lucky" we got one Superman film in 1987?

Are we lucky Smallville is in its 7th (or 8th, I can't keep up) season?

Are we lucky Lois and Clark squeezed out that horrid last season?

Are you claiming we should bow down in gratitude that anything Supes related is released?


People are entirely free to reject whatever they wish, Jacob. We'd be *more* grateful if these products were of the standard of the original.

[Jacob]

that is your problem.. you are never happy with the final result.. the true worse part of being a fanboy.. that must really suck.


Jacob

PS.. smallville is in 8th season.

[crazy_asian_man]

Here's a theory:

I don't know how many of you are/were familiar with the 'restored' B&W scifi movie "Metropolis" years ago. At that time, they found a few bits of grainy footage and stills to cover what was originally supposed to be there, so that you REALLY saw (in text/image for the most part) what was going to be done--- even though the footage wasn't available at that time to truly complete it as originally envisioned.

If "The Richard Donner Cut" had put in storyboards/subtitles for the scenes he couldn't shoot (or even had a screen test for), and the cut had been called, "The Richard Donner workprint" would the RDC have gotten more respect and not be compared to the finished theatrical cut, because of what it's called?

My own thought is that "The Richard Donner Cut" kind of sabotaged itself reception-wise by implying that it was truly a finished film the way that Donner would have completed it, had he had a chance. (And it sure seemed that was how they were marketing it). Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly glad we got ANYTHING..... but the expectations were that it really was completed 100% to how Donner would have done it. Not sewn together strangely.

As is, I cringe when its compared to the Lester cut--- because it's comparing a cut that had a 'true' production budget to finish it (with score and all and a real editor), versus a 'straight to dvd' budget, with editing that everyone is fairly suspicious of.

(Though I'll always wonder: was it just the budget? Were the takes that Thau used the only real good ones intact? Or were all three to blame for the choppiness/bad choices on the RDC- given the resources?)

As it stands, of the few different fan cuts I've seen, each one I've still thought head and shoulders above what was in the RDC (Although the Donner material dominates in each one), in terms of feeling like a 'complete' film. And, these I prefer definitely over the theatrical cut.

Donner is a fantastic director, who made Superman 'fly' onscreen, (not to mention some of his other great films) but I really question who ultimately made the RDC something controversial.... and I really think the labelling of it as "the Donner Cut" rather than the "Richard Donner Incomplete Rough Cut" didn't help.

(Though I'm aware that they NEVER would have called it that. But they should have.) ;p

[ye5man]

Aug 2, 2008 19:33:33 GMT -5 Jacob said:

that is your problem.. you are never happy with the final result.. the true worse part of being a fanboy.. that must really suck.

I'm not a "fanboy" Jake, please understand that.

Never happy eh? I was thrilled with the first 2 seasons of the George Reeves Superman episodes for example. Truly pissed over Superman Returns IMO in terms of writing and maintaining interest.

Can you not grasp the concepts I remarked on? We're not expecting perfection, but look at all the comments made about the cgi and awful lighting for example. Mistakes were made.

Or am I labelled a "fanboy" by you for criticising?


How's Sarah Douglas these days?

[atp]

Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

His attitude has alienated many people who could have supported him.

2) All this secrecy. Secret identity. Secret endings. Secret conversations. Secret WB people. All of this "secrecy" crap got old very quick. Now it comes across as arrogance.

[tomahawk]

Aug 3, 2008 7:42:00 GMT -5 atp said:

Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

His attitude has alienated many people who could have supported him.

2) All this secrecy. Secret identity. Secret endings. Secret conversations. Secret WB people. All of this "secrecy" crap got old very quick. Now it comes across as arrogance.

Bingo!!

I actually messaged him when he was first dumping on everyone and told him that exact thing.

That was before Gandy removed Selutron's real name from SC too.

[Jacob]

I never had a problem with how a film is shot.. maybe with how its cut and edited more.. they take too much stuff out the movie for it to make much sense. recently I have liked the directors cuts or EE of certain films.. those extra scenes help the movie like daredevil, fantastic four 1, ghost rider etc. I did like the king kong 2005 theatre version more then the ee.

superman returns suffered with.. if you read or listen to the superman returns on the books on tape.. its more complete. I remember having problems with the flying cgi effects in some parts of the movie.. It didn't have the grace of the flying scenes in the original films.

I am not a fan of the fancuts.. I thinks its wrong.. the director or whatever makes the movie.. if we like it fine, and we don't then that its. a little edit here and there is not going to fix it.. there is no way to fix the movie van helsing.. if you could edit, it would be like 5 minutes long or so. that was a really shitty movie. that is my view on that.

and to answer your question, sarah is doing fine.

Jacob

[crazy_asian_man]

"Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

His attitude has alienated many people who could have supported him.

2) All this secrecy. Secret identity. Secret endings. Secret conversations. Secret WB people. All of this "secrecy" crap got old very quick. Now it comes across as arrogance."

I couldn't agree more. On one hand, there were some brilliant clips, but on the other hand, snubbing his nose down on people who were just as passionate about the film as him makes one want to NOT support him, great clips or not.

[EvilSupes]

I personally believe what he achieved through his clips is not that hard to do. I mean CAM you've already demonstrated you can do stuff just as good, if not better. I've been experimenting with rotoscoping and it is pretty easy, just very time consuming. If Selutron won't give us the version we want to see, someone else will.

[crazy_asian_man]

Thanks EvilSupes, I appreciate your kind words on some of my clips!

I totally agree that anyone can do rotoscoping--- and/but that it really eats up time like crazy (which is one reason why my own cut will take forever), especially trying to find footage that matches at all to what you want. To me, the finding of the clips that match is much harder than the actual rotoscoping... (*and I admit my own use of "Ghostbusters"/other 80's isn't ideal, but I'm too lazy myself to put the effort to try to dig up 70's films that might be more appropriate matches- that, plus, hard to find a place that rents films that old here, now, too).

As much as Selutron put me off, though, if he's really able to get a new cut with even ONE frame of new Donner footage out of WB's vaults and available to the public, I'll be grateful.

It's really a pity that the RDC didn't give any of us the closure we wanted, eh?
Then we wouldn't even need a Selutron. *sigh*

[EvilSupes]

CAM have you tried the new adobe program called Adobe Ultra CS3? It's supposed to make things that take forever in after effects done in just a few clicks.

[joey m]

The Donner Cut was loaded with disclaimers and has never been shown on TV or presented as a Lucas replacement. The Lester version has been on tv several times this year, blu-ray's coming, and is still..THE movie, nothing's changed since 81 except we got some extra gravy and insight into the production.

I really wish someone from Warner (not a marketing guy or a biased outsider like Thau or Salkind) would just come out and say exactly, legally and financially, what can and can't be done with this movie, because it's still very fuzzy.

[crazy_asian_man]

"CAM have you tried the new adobe program called Adobe Ultra CS3? It's supposed to make things that take forever in after effects done in just a few clicks."

Wow! I'll have to check that out! thanks!

"I really wish someone from Warner (not a marketing guy or a biased outsider like Thau or Salkind) would just come out and say exactly, legally and financially, what can and can't be done with this movie, because it's still very fuzzy."

I agree!

[Jacob]

there could still be some legal problems surrounding the movie.

Jacob

[indo77]

Aug 3, 2008 11:23:26 GMT -5 EvilSupes said:

I personally believe what he achieved through his clips is not that hard to do. I mean CAM you've already demonstrated you can do stuff just as good, if not better. I've been experimenting with rotoscoping and it is pretty easy, just very time consuming. If Selutron won't give us the version we want to see, someone else will.

I can see this happening although how do you design a cut that meets everyone's expectations. Some of the music cues in the Donner Superman II are horrible (i.e. when Non starts smashing up the Daily Planet - what happened to the original background cue?)

[EvilSupes]

It was Ken Thorne's work probably that was used before. Donner pretty much replaced all of his musical cues with John Williams.

[Luke]

Basically BOTH Lester's and Donner's SII are flawed because they BOTH deleted the other director's footage so they would get credit. At least Lester's got finished properly.

Basically I couldn't give a toss WHO get's credited. Credit them BOTH and get a finished product that includes a coherent vision from both. Basically I'd prefer what is the RDC but with Lesters footage to fill in the gaps. Maybe re-edit Donner's footage where needed. Probably end up with 50/50 from each.

[eccentricbeing]

Aug 3, 2008 7:42:00 GMT -5 atp said:

Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

His attitude has alienated many people who could have supported him.

2) All this secrecy. Secret identity. Secret endings. Secret conversations. Secret WB people. All of this "secrecy" crap got old very quick. Now it comes across as arrogance.

How did I miss this post? Great points, ATP!

[HOSNI]

All the newly restored footage should have been as a second disc supplement to the theatrical version, scene by scene - with each one having commentary overlaid by Dick and Tom.

(They should have also restored Lex Heads North/South, villains arrest and Clark deciding to return to the diner and include with the same approach)

That alone would have created enough demand for them to consider then piecing it together properly as a film with the budget it deserved.

I'm incredibly grateful for the restoration effort and cost Warners applied, it was just poorly planned and executed.

[chance]

I understand what Jacob is saying and I agree with most of it. Good to see you posting

[Gandy]

Aug 3, 2008 7:42:00 GMT -5 atp said:

Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

His attitude has alienated many people who could have supported him.

2) All this secrecy. Secret identity. Secret endings. Secret conversations. Secret WB people. All of this "secrecy" crap got old very quick. Now it comes across as arrogance.

But you still give a sh*t.

[Jacob]

thanks for the support chance.

Jacob

[Gandy]

Aug 3, 2008 7:42:00 GMT -5 atp said:

Selutron has shot himself in the foot in two ways:

1) Being so dismissive of all other fan cuts and so hostile about Mr Thau. If you're going to come out swinging, be damn sure that you're actually going to follow up and deliver what you promise.

Can you provide any proof that he slammed fan cuts?
Was he hostile against Michael Thau or his editing?