Almost 2 years later...thoughts on the Donner Cut?

[crazy_asian_man]

Selutron's first open letter on his Youtube page (which had been since revised) was the letter that didn't exactly give either other fan cutters or (I would imagine) Michael Thau a nice feeling. I didn't keep it or copy the text, so I can't quote it directly.

Hard to erase a first impression.

[Jimbo]

I forget the original text as well, but I do remember him criticizing the fact that there are so many fan cuts out there.

It gave me the impression that there should only be one....HIS.

[EvilSupes]

I think the Superman IV cut that eventually gets finished will raise a few eyebrows ;D

[Ollie W]

He said something to the effect that it was counter productive to produce so many edits because WB will accept they will never please everyone.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, that sounds like the quote.

What exactly is counterproductive about making a fan cut? It's a CUT.... made by a FAN. A cut made by a fan FOR a fan. I'd say that was pretty productive.

To his statement about how all the fan cuts are telling WB that people will never be happy, what gives him the right to make that judgment? How is his cut any different from anyone else's? Sure, it looks better, but it's still one fan's vision, and that's no different than any other fan cut. He's just another Superman II fan cutter out of many, but more vocal about it.

To me, he gives off the impression that it's his sole mission to get WB to make a new Superman II cut, and anyone else who makes their own cut just makes him look bad or undermines his mission. That whole thing just turns me off.

I may be judging him wrong, but with all the cloak and dagger stuff, those are my two cents.

[HOSNI]

It’s a pity that many were offended by his approach and how he chose his words, nobody’s perfect.

Like him or not, it’s pretty hard to ignore that because of his approach with those clips it’s quite possible Warners might be rethinking things.

I’m appreciative for that because I was unhappy with the DC. Perhaps if I’d have made a fan cut I’d feel differently.

Most fan cuts are about creating something that the ‘author’ feels will flow better, look better and sound better. They usually result in a finished product and are offered to people to own.

With the exception of one clip I can think of (The DP jump) Selutron didn’t do that, so this isn’t quite apples vs apples. There are tremendous opportunities to create Superman II far more in line with how it was intended and he’s proved it. Most fan cuts don’t have that agenda in mind.

Hypothetical, let’s say Warners announced tomorrow they’ve decided to give it another shot.

How would you react?

[EvilSupes]

I'd say they need to revamp Superman IV. ;D

[tomahawk]

Selutron's initial arrogance undermined his intentions.

[crazy_asian_man]

"It’s a pity that many were offended by his approach and how he chose his words, nobody’s perfect.

Like him or not, it’s pretty hard to ignore that because of his approach with those clips it’s quite possible Warners might be rethinking things.

I’m appreciative for that because I was unhappy with the DC. Perhaps if I’d have made a fan cut I’d feel differently."

I've been saying constantly that if the end result were even a few seconds more of previously unreleased actual Donner footage made available, I'd be grateful enough to Selutron.

At the same time....I really now wish I'd kept his original text from his original Youtube site to share. You could judge the letter for yourself.

Nobody's perfect, but the irritation on my part comes from the fact that there may be ONLY ONE shot at a recut and if that's the case.... personally, I've found that almost without exception, this or that cut has come up with a new idea or juxtaposition that (although admittedly, of course choices that I might not agree with, too) I wouldn't have thought of previously.

What Selutron COULD have done is to visit any of a number of message boards and discuss (as most of the cutters have been wiling to do) what worked/didn't work for them--- with the creative license to of course listen/not listen to others' opinions--- if he wished to gain even more support. Not that he'd have to cut 'by committee'--- but the feeling was that there wasn't even an attempt to see if there were other ideas that weren't his own to make the Donner cut better, which kind of undermined his position that it wasn't about HIS cut, but about making it 'the cut 'WE' deserved'. (Using 'we' was a bit presumptious as a header for the longest time....who is 'we' he' was talking about? Me? You? I don't remember being asked.)

(Having a poster I won't name proclaiming, "WE MUST SUPPORT SELUTRON!!!!" on threads didn't really help his cause any, imo. Selutron does great stuff, but so have other cutters, with no less heart or passion. Again, I wish I'd had the original text that was standing for so long for you to judge for yourself.)

If tommorrow WB releases a superior cut to the RDC, with real Donner footage restored, I'd be thrilled....but in seeing how the whole strategy to gain support and good will was mishandled among other fans in the beginning. is disappointing.

I'd praise how the end result was, but not necessarily the process at all.

[crazy_asian_man]

Actually, Jimbo said it best:

(Worth repeating)
"To me, he ((Selutron)) gives off the impression that it's his sole mission to get WB to make a new Superman II cut, and anyone else who makes their own cut just makes him look bad or undermines his mission. That whole thing just turns me off."

That was the crux of my own turnoff towards Selutron, too... that was the gist of the original public announcement that bent my nose out of shape.

[atp]

(Having a poster I won't name proclaiming, "WE MUST SUPPORT SELUTRON!!!!" on threads didn't really help his cause any, imo.

Who was doing that?

[HOSNI]

Aug 8, 2008 11:46:20 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

"It’s a pity that many were offended by his approach and how he chose his words, nobody’s perfect.

Like him or not, it’s pretty hard to ignore that because of his approach with those clips it’s quite possible Warners might be rethinking things.

I’m appreciative for that because I was unhappy with the DC. Perhaps if I’d have made a fan cut I’d feel differently."

I've been saying constantly that if the end result were even a few seconds more of previously unreleased actual Donner footage made available, I'd be grateful enough to Selutron.

At the same time....I really now wish I'd kept his original text from his original Youtube site to share. You could judge the letter for yourself.

Nobody's perfect, but the irritation on my part comes from the fact that there may be ONLY ONE shot at a recut and if that's the case.... personally, I've found that almost without exception, this or that cut has come up with a new idea or juxtaposition that (although admittedly, of course choices that I might not agree with, too) I wouldn't have thought of previously.

What Selutron COULD have done is to visit any of a number of message boards and discuss (as most of the cutters have been wiling to do) what worked/didn't work for them--- with the creative license to of course listen/not listen to others' opinions--- if he wished to gain even more support. Not that he'd have to cut 'by committee'--- but the feeling was that there wasn't even an attempt to see if there were other ideas that weren't his own to make the Donner cut better, which kind of undermined his position that it wasn't about HIS cut, but about making it 'the cut 'WE' deserved'. (Using 'we' was a bit presumptious as a header for the longest time....who is 'we' he' was talking about? Me? You? I don't remember being asked.)

(Having a poster I won't name proclaiming, "WE MUST SUPPORT SELUTRON!!!!" on threads didn't really help his cause any, imo. Selutron does great stuff, but so have other cutters, with no less heart or passion. Again, I wish I'd had the original text that was standing for so long for you to judge for yourself.)

If tommorrow WB releases a superior cut to the RDC, with real Donner footage restored, I'd be thrilled....but in seeing how the whole strategy to gain support and good will was mishandled among other fans in the beginning. is disappointing.

I'd praise how the end result was, but not necessarily the process at all.

In life you will never get every person to agree with your approach by putting yourself out there. His work was largely applauded by a majority of fans - I do hear what you're saying though.

Maybe the approach should have been simply getting agreement on a petition or a letter with only words? Hey, that was enough to get the DC...who knows

Do you know if any other fan cutters sent copies of their work to Warners to illustrate a point?

[Valentine Smith]

Hosni, your sig rules. Especially the Bat-manip.

[HOSNI]

thanks man - got a larger version if you want it sent to an email. I always wondered what keaton would look like in the traditional colors, started from there.

[Valentine Smith]

Start a thread with the big pics! Metallo has some awesome ones, too!

I on the other hand, have nothing. I just like to look at the pretty pictures.

[Deleted]

Who's the GL?

[ShogunLogan]

Someone teach crazy asian man how to quote in a post.

[eccentricbeing]

Jimbo and CAM make great points....but honestly, I just think the argument will go around in circles to no end because really, we don't know what's on Selutron's mind. I don't intend to sound like a disgruntled villager claiming for the outsider to show his face, but I think it would be a great gesture for him to communicate through a message board, not through public statements. We aren't the Associated Press. Screw this political secret crap...I think we will all be relieved if he becomes an equal to us.

Or maybe the guy doesn't have time? What the heck do I know anyway? Man, six days to retirement...

[EvilSupes]

I think he should do what Adywan has done who recently done an absolute gem of a cut, with Star Wars: Revisited. Which is what most of you have said, join a messageboard and ask for some opinions/suggestions.

[Olly H 82]

I rarely watch the Donner cut,the editing of the video and especially the audio is dreadful so i prefer to watch the Lester version. Im looking forward to Selutrons version if that ever arises.

[Shane]

I look at the donner as what could have been but i do enjoy watching both version of Superman II

[HOSNI]

Aug 9, 2008 13:55:25 GMT -5 @ucfkevin said:

Who's the GL?

He's yet to be cast so no face yet unfortunately.

[ye5man]

Nobody should give a sh'it about Selutron's ego and seemingly ubernerd personality if he delivers the goods you guys want. Honestly, does it matter?

Personally when I saw some clips I just saw footage of SIII and SIV superimposed on STM and SII backgrounds and I wasn't that impressed. If he had have been consulted during Thau's cut then we may have seen something better, but I think it's too late now to start over. How many "official" cuts do we need? It's starting to become a parody of itself. I wonder what Lester and Donner think about this? Perhaps, they should have first say over any WB sanctioned cut, not some bedroom editor.

Give me the theatrical SII anyday.

[EvilSupes]

Lester? he probably doesn't know or care. Donner? well he probably is aware, but isn't particularly bothered. Afterall, he finally was able to distribute what he wanted, so as far as he is concerned that is that. I like to think that isn't the case though. Thau probably could make another cut happen, since he is the one who approached and persuaded Donner in the first place. A lot of credit really does need to be given to this guy, even if he isn't the greatest of editors.

[crazy_asian_man]

Truthfully- if Thau had just cut the RDC SMOOTHLY, even with just footage available, without the bizzare trimming of Donner sequences we've even already seen in a longer form (a la IRC) awful voice doubles and often extemely awkward disjointed music editing think I would have been happy enough, even without the 'enhancements' made available nowadays to 'create' "new" footage.

I really enjoy most of what Selutron's done... but I question how comfortable Donner & Company feel about the technology to really alter another director's footage, period, to this degree, even if (justifiably to a degree, I think) Donner still despises Lester.

They did do rotoscoping for the closeups of Supes' crashing into the Statue of Liberty scene, but how many more 'new' scenes would they feel comfortable 'creating' through cut and paste.

Personally, I don't mind one bit if it helps sharpen the original vision of what Donner was going to do... but I haven't been in the professional world of filmmaking for decades like Donner has. (or at all).

It's highly possilble that Donner is just happy with the original Thau cut.... we just don't know what his reaction is to the Thau cut now that time has passed--- and we don't know what his reaction is/would be to more 'composite cuts'.

Hopefully and ideally, there will be a better extended cut than what showed up the first time around.....WHOEVER does it.