|
|
Post by SuperSnooper on Jun 12, 2009 8:30:17 GMT -5
Wouldn't say Superman Returns is the better movie than Superman II. Who knows if Singer released the (mythical) Krypton footage and re-edited SR, replacing the Luther opening, it may be a better film than Superman II.
But when you put Superman 1 and 2 together, it's hard to beat.
|
|
|
|
Post by adam15 on Jun 12, 2009 9:35:35 GMT -5
When I watch S2 without the rosy glasses of my childhood love for it, I see a lousy movie. There. I said it. And it has NOTHING to do with the "knowledge of the turbulent production". Because I realized that even if there was a proper and complete Donner version of it, it still had a lousy script, with loads of "kiddie" moments that STM (and SR) simply doesn't have. Now, in fairness and honesty, (and this bums me out to say as well) SR continues to diminish for me as time goes on as well. But, there's a consistency to it, it knows what it's trying to do even when it fails. I don't see how the SII script was fundamentally flawed. Nor do I see how there was a bunch of kiddie moments in Mankewitcz's script. SR, by contrast, had IMHO an abbhorent script which was full of re-hashed plot points, numb lifeless characters, and a plot so half-baked... In short, the SII script had Superman giving up his powers while the villians take over the world and the terrible price Kal-El had to pay to get them back. SR had Superman leave for some reason, come back with little fanfare, foil another of ol' Lex's land schemes and find out he has an illegitimate son. I think SII had a MUCH better script |
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Jun 12, 2009 10:19:46 GMT -5
I think SII had a MUCH better script Which one? ;D |
|
|
|
Post by adam15 on Jun 12, 2009 10:32:25 GMT -5
I think SII had a MUCH better script Which one? ;D Both.  |
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Jun 12, 2009 10:35:32 GMT -5
Oh, there were more than two. There was the original Puzo, the original Newman script, the Mankiewicz script, and the final Mankiewicz/Newman script, maybe more, I dunno.
|
|
|
|
Post by EnriqueH on Jun 12, 2009 10:46:57 GMT -5
Oh, there were more than two. There was the original Puzo, the original Newman script, the Mankiewicz script, and the final Mankiewicz/Newman script, maybe more, I dunno. Which is why I think it's a miracle that SII ended up being so good and a mystery why SR wasn't better. |
|
|
|
Post by adam15 on Jun 12, 2009 10:51:04 GMT -5
Oh, there were more than two. There was the original Puzo, the original Newman script, the Mankiewicz script, and the final Mankiewicz/Newman script, maybe more, I dunno. I know that. What I meant was the script used for TLC and the script for the TDC. Both were LEAGUES better than the one used for SR. Seriously Harris and Doughrty(sp?) were pretty young guys... they were like two little boys making up a Superman "script" to role play in their backyard! ;D ;D ;D |
|
ye5man
New Member
1%
Posts: 7,928
|
Post by ye5man on Jun 12, 2009 11:39:27 GMT -5
I think the script to SR is one of its major letdowns. Apart from lifting entire portions of dialogue from STM, a lot of new dialogue has really narrow vocabulary. There is no rich dialogue, no texture, no depth
"Personally, I think that's a load of crap"
I mean, come on...that lameness shocked me at the cinema.
|
|
|
|
Post by adam15 on Jun 12, 2009 11:51:02 GMT -5
I think the script to SR is one of its major letdowns. Apart from lifting entire portions of dialogue from STM, a lot of new dialogue has really narrow vocabulary. There is no rich dialogue, no texture, no depth "Personally, I think that's a load of crap" I mean, come on...that lameness shocked me at the cinema. :-/I can't believe Lois gave that "load of crap" line to Superman. Lois was so out of line there... was it just me or was Lois so incredibly mean and snide in SR? I just hated her |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Jun 12, 2009 12:12:25 GMT -5
Nobody that I can recall provided such an argument for SR. Nobody said, I like SR because I liked the story better, nothing tops the airplane rescue, etc. Once again, its exactly like Kevin said, we don't feel the need to explain ourselves to anyone. My initial review of the film still stands. Just read it. Its pretty much what I have to say. I never said that. Exactly.......to you. Which is fine, because to me, STM & SII could have been better. Most good movies could. Thats fine until you go prodding people who have basically stated that they are tired of explaining why they love a film. We've all sated the reasons numerous times over the years & really don't feel the need to justify the opinion anymore. You started a poll in hopes of seeing SR get pretty much no votes. It got plenty & that pisses you off. You response is then to say "What the fuck? How is that possible? EXPLAIN YOURSELVES!"Sorry, most don't feel the need to, & trying to force people to explain themselves, makes them even less likely to do it. Thats because they both suck & theres plenty to joke & laugh about. They also have a few good moments, which is also fun to discuss. SR & SII are both good films & thats how most of us feel. You just wanted to accomplish something with this poll & it didn't happen. Sorry. Thats because people don't feel that thread is an attempt at goading or pushing people who prefer one or the other. They do in this one. I don't think you made fun of anyone. I just think you want people to explain themselves to you, & most don't wanna, as the subject of why we love SR has been discussed to death lately. Maybe start the same poll again in about 2 years? ;D Its all good  |
|
|
|
Post by stargazer01 on Jun 12, 2009 12:26:56 GMT -5
ye5man said, I think the script to SR is one of its major letdowns. Apart from lifting entire portions of dialogue from STM,I think people really exaggerate on this. And when they used some of the dialogue, it was used for a different purpose and in a new way. I think it was quite interesting actually. a lot of new dialogue has really narrow vocabulary. Film is a visual medium. And this film in particular doesn't have a lot of verbal exposition, yes, but Singer managed to communicate his story in other ways through the imagery, the actors eyes and facial expressions, through body language, and even through the choices of music/score IMO. If anything, I think that this was a more refined and sophisticated way of storytelling. Loved it. I usually dislike the spoonfeeding. There is no rich dialogue,I disagree. There is some very rich and deep dialogue. It probably needed some more, yes, especially Superman, but overall, I think it was solid in that aspect. For instance, "I hear everything. You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior, but every day I hear people crying for one." "Do you know the story of Prometheus? No, of course you don't. Prometheus was a god who stole the power of fire from the other gods and gave control of it to the mortals. In essence, he gave us technology, he gave us power." "Actually, sort of. You see whoever controls technology controls the world. The Roman empire ruled the world because they built roads. The British empire ruled the world because they built ships. America; the atom bomb. And so on and so forth. I just want what Prometheus wanted." "Gods are selfish beings who fly around in little red capes and don't share their powers with mankind." "He's a little fragile, but he's gonna grow up to be big and strong... just like his dad." no texture, no depthI totally disagree with this. There is texture and a lot of depth and a lot of heart as well. There is tons of layers and subtext in this movie. "Personally, I think that's a load of crap"I mean, come on...that lameness shocked me at the cinema.Not more lame than these, "So this is planet Houston." "The whole planet Houston?" "Four, if you count him twice." " Yeah, and you could use a tuck here and there yourself, sister." "North... Why does he always go north?" "He wants to ski?"  |
|
|
|
Post by SuperSnooper on Jun 12, 2009 12:44:29 GMT -5
Those who like Superman Returns. Those who hate Superman Returns. And those who use Superman REturns for their deep rooted personal vendettas.
Ah, politics!
|
|
|
|
Post by EnriqueH on Jun 12, 2009 17:10:42 GMT -5
Maverick, my comments were not directed to you specifically, first of all.
Second of all, it's true that we've all given our opinions on SR in the years since it was released, but I'm talking about IN THE CONTEXT of SII vs. SR---what characteristics of SR did you feel exceeded SII? Was it the acting, the script, specific scenes? What? I was genuinely curious. I wasn't asking for a thesis on "Why SR is better than SII". Just a casual conversation. We do this all the time.
Which brings me to third, as you said, you don't have to explain yourself. But then why are we participating in a film discussion forum? Furthermore, since we've all talked about virtually every aspect of the Superman series in the last 10+ years that we've been members, why even have this forum if we've already talked about our feelings about the movies? Why not just have Don's Diner? It's because we enjoy talking about Superman over and over. And that's what I was shooting for. Instead, a bunch of you got defensive and refused to cooperate in the discussion. If you feel you talked about SR to death lately, fine.
But as I said, what I thought was unique about my topic was "SR in the context of why it's better than SII", (or vice versa in some of our cases including me) not just why you like SR.
|
|
EvilSupes
New Member
LOOK! Superman's drunk!
Posts: 3,037
|
Post by EvilSupes on Jun 13, 2009 6:50:27 GMT -5
You bring a fair point. I think some of us just misinterpreted what you said previously because of the way you worded your comments, that's all dude. No harm done though.  |
|
|
|
Post by ReeveIsSuperman on Jun 14, 2009 11:17:05 GMT -5
This poll isnt necessary-S II wins easy. Make a poll for SR vs S IV. Then we'll have a real debate.
|
|
|
|
Post by stargazer01 on Jun 14, 2009 13:24:26 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Jun 14, 2009 13:40:55 GMT -5
Trolls, don't mind them.
|
|
Legsy
New Member
Alright, alright, alright...
Posts: 15,339
|
Post by Legsy on Jun 14, 2009 18:24:36 GMT -5
ReeveIsSuperman does this from time to time. He'll disappear for a few months then come back every now and then to bash SR. Maybe he's Adam's replacement. Or maybe he is Adam.  |
|
|
|
Post by stargazer01 on Jun 14, 2009 21:15:49 GMT -5
Agreed, legsy and jim; sadly, some people are so incredibly insecure that they need to constantly put others down in order to feel better. Yeah, trolls, every message board has at least one of them. But like someone said, they need to be kept on a leash. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by EnriqueH on Jun 14, 2009 21:56:47 GMT -5
Agreed, legsy and jim; sadly, some people are so incredibly insecure that they need to constantly put others down in order to feel better. Yeah, trolls, every message board has at least one of them. But like someone said, they need to be kept on a leash. ;D Ok, but...did ReeveIsSuperman put anyone down? Not in that post he didn't. Did you have a Freudian slip? Do you equate criticizing SR to criticizing you? |
|
|
|
Post by Ollie W on Jun 14, 2009 21:57:31 GMT -5
I do think SII could be much better though, it just has this anti-climax feeling of what could've been every time I watch it. That's exactly how I feel when I watch SR. Seriously that movie could've been so much better. |
|
