Selutron's Superman II Cut

[matt]

I'm sure anything is still possible. There is still some interest in SII.
I wonder if Selutron has had any new discussions with Donner or WB?

[crazy_asian_man]

Blade Runner wasn't really luck. Ridley Scott got to shoot everything he needed. All that the Final Cut did was further the efforts of the 1992 Director's Cut and remove the voice-overs, trim some shots, remove the ending that never should have been there, and use some CG to fix a few errors. The entire movie was already there, it just needed some tweaking.

Superman II is an ugly beast, because you have two directors' visions clashing head-to-head, plus you have more cuts made by fans and TV networks that include scenes that neither director used. So you have a movie Donner wanted, a movie Lester wanted, and a movie the producers and networks wanted. What a mess!

WB did the right thing and included every single cut of Blade Runner in the collection. Imagine if WB released a collection of Superman II which had both official cuts as well as the ABC and RIC cuts in full widescreen. I bet people would be complaining far less.

Well said, Jimbo! Well said!

[Jack Tripper]

i don't see it happening. superman II is a dead horse and between the donner cut and endless fan cuts, this horse has been beaten to a bloody unrecognizable pulp.

[atp]

Mar 13, 2010 19:11:37 GMT -5 Jack Tripper said:

i don't see it happening. superman II is a dead horse and between the donner cut and endless fan cuts, this horse has been beaten to a bloody unrecognizable pulp.

There's still one scene mising though, and the saga will never be complete without it. Please.

[crazy_asian_man]

i don't see it happening. superman II is a dead horse and between the donner cut and endless fan cuts, this horse has been beaten to a bloody unrecognizable pulp.

Truthfully-
If the RDC wasn't SOOOOOO badly edited, never would have gone through the pain of a fan cut.

If WB decided just to re-edit what they already have - better, (i.e. better re-use of music editing, if they're stuck without being able to afford a new score// polish & reinsert arctic police & fos entrance scenes), I'd be happy.

As is......still......neither theatrical nor RDC is good enough for rewatching as is. (imo)

[matt]

Is there any interest in this again with news of the new movie?

[jor-el76]

i would like to know if Selutron was able to show his donner'c cut end to our Mank.... i hope so and i would like to know what he said about it.

Dear Darmesh do you know something about it?

[Gandy]

Yes, Mank had seen Selutron's ending. He enjoyed it.

[jor-el76]

Aug 11, 2010 8:26:01 GMT -5 Gandy said:

Yes, Mank had seen Selutron's ending. He enjoyed it.

Thanks a lot for this reply, it is a wonderful news for me.... it's like Mank saw the circle completed before he leaving this world for another journey...

thank you, really.

[Kirok]

I'm happy to know Mankiewicz got to see Selutron's ending. Knowing that he liked it gives it a certain stamp of approval.

Of course he was a major contributer to the ending of the Donner Cut, so Mank's approval or no that still doesn't guarantee that WE'LL like it...

[crazy_asian_man]

I'm happy to know Mankiewicz got to see Selutron's ending. Knowing that he liked it gives it a certain stamp of approval.

Of course he was a major contributer to the ending of the Donner Cut, so Mank's approval or no that still doesn't guarantee that WE'LL like it...

Exactly.
Although I've enjoyed most of the clips that Selutron has done- it doesn't mean that necessarily we'd all agree on it being the fix for the RDC editing disaster.

If I was Selutron, I'd have a hard time showing a cut to Mank, with the awareness that Donner & Mank did have influence on the RDC, and that they're friends with Thau. That's a lot of cahones, whether it's ego or confidence, doesn't matter- nice that Mank was willing to (I assume) sit through the whole thing.... or was it just clips (a la the presentation that was supposed to happen for the execs)? One wonders...

About the ending- for me, again--- it wasn't the big worry so much as the missing Donner (or badly edited Donner) footage otherwise.

Also--- Lois probably remembers at the end, how many other different possibilities could there be?
(I think this had already been discussed on another thread)

The most interesting ending of all the fan cuts to me, was the suprise that Maverick did on his that threw me for a loop. (I don't want to give it away, I don't remember if Mav already mentioned it on the boards or not)

Personally, I'd be more interested in what he does for the battle sequences.... and/if ANYONE is going to be able to go into the archives and make MORE Donner footage available in DVD quality.....

[TylerDurden389]

Aug 11, 2010 20:27:18 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I'm happy to know Mankiewicz got to see Selutron's ending. Knowing that he liked it gives it a certain stamp of approval.

Of course he was a major contributer to the ending of the Donner Cut, so Mank's approval or no that still doesn't guarantee that WE'LL like it...

Exactly.
Although I've enjoyed most of the clips that Selutron has done- it doesn't mean that necessarily we'd all agree on it being the fix for the RDC editing disaster.

If I was Selutron, I'd have a hard time showing a cut to Mank, with the awareness that Donner & Mank did have influence on the RDC, and that they're friends with Thau. That's a lot of cahones, whether it's ego or confidence, doesn't matter- nice that Mank was willing to (I assume) sit through the whole thing.... or was it just clips (a la the presentation that was supposed to happen for the execs)? One wonders...

About the ending- for me, again--- it wasn't the big worry so much as the missing Donner (or badly edited Donner) footage otherwise.

Also--- Lois probably remembers at the end, how many other different possibilities could there be?
(I think this had already been discussed on another thread)

The most interesting ending of all the fan cuts to me, was the suprise that Maverick did on his that threw me for a loop. (I don't want to give it away, I don't remember if Mav already mentioned it on the boards or not)

Personally, I'd be more interested in what he does for the battle sequences.... and/if ANYONE is going to be able to go into the archives and make MORE Donner footage available in DVD quality.....

I'm also glad to know that he got to see it. I agree CAM. Sel showing his proposed cut/ideas to Donner and co. definitely took guts. Also, CAM, I know you've told me many times that you need a long break from S2, but based on what you're saying here about wanting more Donner footage released in better quality, as well as Sel's take on the battle sequences (a part of the movie you're obviously more than enthusiastic about), tells me that the doors aren't shut on this for you just yet.

And I'm happy to hear that.

[crazy_asian_man]

Hey Tyler,
Great to see you around here again-

I'm also glad to know that he got to see it. I agree CAM. Sel showing his proposed cut/ideas to Donner and co. definitely took guts. Also, CAM, I know you've told me many times that you need a long break from S2, but based on what you're saying here about wanting more Donner footage released in better quality, as well as Sel's take on the battle sequences (a part of the movie you're obviously more than enthusiastic about), tells me that the doors aren't shut on this for you just yet.

And I'm happy to hear that.

I just got done re-looking at my cut & trying to figure out changes after not looking at the film for months, as well as Selutron's fx bits. It's definitely the never-ending puzzle.

A few thoughts come up on both:

Selutron's opening definitely makes SII look far more like part 2, and I borrowed some of his fx ideas- but even though it makes more sense, it's still clunky because time travel is just...(no other way around it)....dumb and confusing, if a movie isn't a time travel movie to begin with. The emotional chords that get tied into STM help justify it, ("you're here for reason- to change time whenever your girlfriend dies, son")...sortof.... ;p

The screen test/pasted on heads by Selutron is admirable--- but is distracting. I'm sure he's better at pasting on heads by miles than I am (I tried pasting Margot Kidder's head on a rotoscoped Supergirl for the Depowering scene, with poor results).... but as it is.... Lester's finished scene (even with terrible dialogue bits) with the pink bear I'd opt for in the end.

The fight scene.... I SO wish that I could have found a way to find the clips to duplicate verbatim what's in the Mank script. Can't tell you how much I've spent on old disaster movies in hopes of finding matching stuff- *sigh*.... anyhow, admired that Selutron was looking for modelmakers (presumably for the fight scene)-- but never heard an update if he gave up, or what exactly he even had in mind for expanding it, without new footage available.

Ridley Scott (event though he didn't seem all that crazy about it) was willing to do introductions for the theatrical cut that he hated & also backed its release. Why can't we get a cleaned up release of the IRC of STM/ SII? GRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Same old song, I know.....

[TylerDurden389]

I never left CAM lol. I've been checking this board twice a day, everyday, as I've always done. However, I don't really have anything to contribute unless it's Superman 1 and 2 related. I could care less about anything regarding Superman Returns, a new movie, and for the most part, parts 3 and 4 (unless it's about the "Superman Redeemed" fan edit). Since the topic of S2 (and it's many fan cuts) had died down for a while, I just haven't spoken up much.

Even though I'm happy with what I've done, it's always gonna be a "What if" thing. As I said in another post, if I had the time, patience, and skill that you have, I would go leaps and bounds further than what I've done. Every flying shot of Reeve from the KCOP cut of part 1, as well as flying shots from parts 3 and 4 (save for that ONE INFAMOUS flying shot that they used about 20 times) would be rotoscoped for new scenes. Since I could pretty much care less for 3 and 4, those flying shots would simply be considered unused FX. I was watching "Somewhere in Time" the other day and at the end there's one scene where he's walking with his hands in his pockets, looking very sad. This definitely could be used for the trek back to the fortress.

I'd do specifically the Metro Battle, maybe a flying shot when he goes to get dinner (sort of like what you did, but I'd have him flying outside as well), and new flying shots for my ending (after the alleyway reveal) so I wouldn't have to re-hash clips from part 1,2, and 3. Same for his flight after the shirt reveal after the re-powering.

I'm still waiting on Booshman to release his updated fan edit. He has a lot of new shots and FX that I want to integrate into my cut. He gave me permission to do so as long as I credit him, and wait until some time after he's released his cut. It's been almost 3 months now. Since I don't get back home from my vacation until right before school starts, it wouldn't matter if he released it today because I won't be able to start until after the semester ends (around Christmas time). I do hope he releases it soon so that when I get to work on updating mine, by the time I'm finished enough time will have passed that I can release it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Even though I'm happy with what I've done, it's always gonna be a "What if" thing. As I said in another post, if I had the time, patience, and skill that you have, I would go leaps and bounds further than what I've done. Every flying shot of Reeve from the KCOP cut of part 1, as well as flying shots from parts 3 and 4 (save for that ONE INFAMOUS flying shot that they used about 20 times) would be rotoscoped for new scenes. Since I could pretty much care less for 3 and 4, those flying shots would simply be considered unused FX. I was watching "Somewhere in Time" the other day and at the end there's one scene where he's walking with his hands in his pockets, looking very sad. This definitely could be used for the trek back to the fortress.

Actually, the Adobe Aftereffects software is VERY easy to use, once you know the steps to trace.... but even though it's slightly easier than doing it frame by frame.... it's not much easier. It's not skill, just perseverence. (I also took shortcuts). I'll tip my hate to Selutron on rotoscoping, his is REALLY clean.

On a side note, I actually did try 'that' infamous shot from SIV- and it stood out like a stuck pig. Even changing the coloring didn't help. It STILL looked like a piece of flying cardboard!

I am curious about looking into the videogames and seeing if there is stuff there that can be captured/used.... but not that hopeful on it.

I'm SO envious of whoever had/has a notebook of the SII storyboards under Donner for the metro battle to try to capture what he had in mind. Pity that the images from it never ended up anywhere. I got a couple of the Lester storyboard copies from the battle, but that's about it. *sigh*

[heman]

We all need to remember that all the clips Sel did was just an example, NEVER to be used as a fan made movie or edit. They were always created in an EFFORT to show what direction and naritive he would like to use IF he ever got the chance to get WB to go back and redo it or hire him to do it. Everything would be done on a professional level, and not some 2 dollar effects that people make fun of or take you out of the movie. That was another reason for some of Sel's clips, was to show what a little time and effort simply on a computer with no budget could produce. Now what he could do with a budget, a couple new minitures, a couple stand ins, new fill in footage and re edited footage of donners, I have no doubt we would have a finished and POLISHED acceptable cut.

And no matter what, you cant please everyone. There is always a few that will complain and not like something. But I guarentee the greater majority would be tickled pink. The fact that mank enjoyed Selutrons ideas and ending is a compliment in itself and very uplifting. He could have hated it.

Once superman is ironed out in the courts, and the new movie is officially on production, I believe we will be hearing about Sel once again, and I will definately look forward to that.

[matt]

Aug 12, 2010 21:16:11 GMT -5 heman said:

Once superman is ironed out in the courts, and the new movie is officially on production, I believe we will be hearing about Sel once again, and I will definately look forward to that.

Me too!

[crazy_asian_man]

We all need to remember that all the clips Sel did was just an example, NEVER to be used as a fan made movie or edit. They were always created in an EFFORT to show what direction and naritive he would like to use IF he ever got the chance to get WB to go back and redo it or hire him to do it. Everything would be done on a professional level, and not some 2 dollar effects that people make fun of or take you out of the movie. That was another reason for some of Sel's clips, was to show what a little time and effort simply on a computer with no budget could produce. Now what he could do with a budget, a couple new minitures, a couple stand ins, new fill in footage and re edited footage of donners, I have no doubt we would have a finished and POLISHED acceptable cut.

And no matter what, you cant please everyone. There is always a few that will complain and not like something. But I guarentee the greater majority would be tickled pink. The fact that mank enjoyed Selutrons ideas and ending is a compliment in itself and very uplifting. He could have hated it.

Once superman is ironed out in the courts, and the new movie is officially on production, I believe we will be hearing about Sel once again, and I will definately look forward to that.

I think just about any fan cut out there shows a sample of what COULD have been done better---

The ideal thing would be for Donner/Baird to be excited to jump back onboard with a passion.... OR to fix what was broken with the RDC cut.

If Donner really feels that the best possible edit was done with the Thau RDC.... well then, that's probably it.

If Donner is reinvigorated to pump in more time/energy into it--- maybe.
But- color me suprised that WB (on what level, who knows, though) was willing to listen without Donner's approval ahead of time.

There was a reported case on Aintitcoolnews, where Lethal Weapon 5 was started by Joel Silver and the original writer (I believe), but because Donner wasn't notified and wasn't planned to be in the loop for it- Donner got extremely pissed off, and.... without Donner agreeing to it, neither would Mel.

So.....
Sure, would love to see almost ANY reedit myself done by ANYBODY who can edit it better and properly (and with MORE DONNER footage)--- heck, at this point, I'd prefer IRC SII with DVD quality.

Will it happen though?
I doubt it, without Donner (or another person with Donner's approval) getting excited about it enough to push it to happen.

That may well be Thau's biggest contribution (again, we'll never know)--- that he apparently bugged WB and pushed enough plus other factors. Pity the edit was so unforgiveably horrible.
(Why did he even 'break' Donner scenes that weren't broken in the IRC? Bah.)

Credit for cahones to show Mank. What did Donner think, though? Maybe that's the key question....

[crazy_asian_man]

Suprised this hasn't been mentioned yet:
Selutron's response/details on Mankiewicz's reaction-

www.supermancinema.co.uk/daily_planet/news/index.shtml

This part stood out, about Mank's reaction to the Selutron ending:
"…Your ending to Superman II is lovely and inventive, and represents one heck of a lot of hard work. As to whether or not it’s the way Dick and I
might have chosen to end it – who knows?

" I’m afraid Warners wouldn’t
be immediately interested since they just spent a lot of money
repackaging the whole series, including the Donner cut of II
and the Bryan Singer film. Typically they wait a couple of years before they
do anything new. In the meantime, I’ll pass it on to Dick. Congratulations."


The work that was done intrigues.... suggests that (maybe) that the ending is more than just Lois remembering. Maybe...

At least we know that Dick was given the dvd...
But past that?
Opens up another round of speculation-

Ok, has Donner actually watched the ending?
If so, what is Donner's reaction?
Does Donner want to revisit the RDC or is it something he'd felt enough pain about and got a resolution to?
Or-- would Donner ever consider a recut without Thau's involvement? Given Donner's past pain at being let go of a project he was passionate about, it's hard to envision Thau not being given another shot (or offered it) first if there was a greenlight....

It's a pity (although it might not have made any difference) that Selutron's youtube wasn't a little more diplomatic to Thau's work in the beginning. If Thau was supportive & on board for a re-edit with Selutron's rotoscopes/ideas--- that would seem to give the possibility of a greenlight by WB for the project more clout as well---

At least one of the mysteries is revealed. But will it amount to an extended edit of any sort?
I guess (maybe) we'll know around the time the Nolan version of Supes comes out..... *sigh*

[ye5man]

I’m afraid Warners wouldn’tbe immediately interested since they just spent a lot of money
repackaging the whole series, including the Donner cut of II
and the Bryan Singer film.

I don't understand this. WB didn't do this shit out of charity; they must have made some money from the 2006 DVDs.


WB, don't tell us you lost money with these DVD packages.

[Jimbo]

Aug 29, 2010 19:26:50 GMT -5 ye5man said:

WB, don't tell us you lost money with these DVD packages.

Hollywood accounting, mah boy.

According to Lucasfilm, ROTJ has yet to make a profit:

filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2009/04/lucasfilm-still-not-paying-vader-actor

www.slashfilm.com/2009/04/05/lucasfilm-tells-darth-vader-that-return-of-the-jedi-hasnt-made-a-profit/

[jor-el76]

i have thinked, Selutron probably start again his quest, the same day Warner officially have Talked about the new Nolan's Superman, cause he know the time this project needed and deserved, donner's cut production move very fast, to be realised in time for superman returns, the two part epic project, will need much more time and if the new superman will be in theatre in 2012, two years for producting and restoring will be fine, i think Selutron talking about his great project in these days to the warner... or in other words i hope so... cause this will be the last chance to work on a definitive version of the two part saga, the production must start in the right time to have a very great product for blue ray standard.

dear Darmesh can you confirm my theory or give us some news about which are the Selutron intentions right now?

do you think two years to produce this restored two part saga will be fine?

i really hope warner green ligh this project in the right time to have a great product near the opening of the new movie!

i really hope.

[TylerDurden389]

I haven't heard Selutron talk about moving forward with his project. Nor have I heard anything from Warner Brothers about a new project.

[Gandy]

He's left the project simmering, but I don't see it happening until WB decide to do something new with Superman - and that's quite a big IF.

[jor-el76]

Sept 2, 2010 2:20:55 GMT -5 Gandy said:

He's left the project simmering, but I don't see it happening until WB decide to do something new with Superman - and that's quite a big IF.

so Selutron projet is no more?

i can't belive it it was an astonish project, the two part saga must be realised sooner or later, the Selutron vision is too wonderful to left it dying.

if there is a little hope i want still keep my fingers crossed.

i think Selutron must contact Mr Nolan to help tis project.