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Post by Kamdan on Sept 2, 2010 10:15:36 GMT -5
I just wish the details about the ending would be released already. It's like the animated Superman II we were supposed to get, but it never happened. It's one thing to tell us what's going to happen and it's another to show us the work. Also, where can you get his version of the Concorde scene?!
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 2, 2010 13:16:47 GMT -5
I wish I could see those videos as well. They were great.
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EvilSupes
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Post by EvilSupes on Sept 11, 2010 6:58:45 GMT -5
Well, let's try to guess the secret ending?  - He turns back time and as a consequence Lois dies because it is brought back to the point Lois is killed in the quake.
- Lois keeps his secret. No memory erase or turning back time.
- Superman deals with Zod and co at FOS but at the end, de-powers himself again and spends the rest of his life with Lois as a normal human being.
- The FOS depowers Zod and co as per usual, but at the same time erases Lois' memory.
? I dunno, just some ideas off the top of my head. |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 11, 2010 9:40:03 GMT -5
The whole "Bring the audience to tears" thing really has me curious. I think it's one of the 2 more bleaker endings you mentioned. However, you're not the first to propose his ending his Superman turning back time again, this time with Lois staying dead. However, I honestly can't see why Sel would go through THAT much trouble, putting in all that time and effort, ask WB to put a small amount of money into giving the project anther shot, simply to give Superman 2 a bad ending. I mean, I'm sure casual movie-goers who know nothing about S2's history probably saw bits and pieces of the Donner Cut (or heard about it) and just dismissed it entirely. For some people, it simply is what it is, and there's no way they'll give S2 another try with a somewhat different version (and me personally, I'd rather they stay away from the Donne Cut at all costs to begin with).
So yeah, I can only hope when Sel says "bring the audience to tears", he simply means getting choked up at the balcony scene when Lois says "your secret's safe with me" like I did the first few times I watched the Donner Cut. I'll say this, that's one take where Thau chose wisely. Seeing that same line in the RIC, with Kidder dubbing herself (where she adds "I'll never tell anyone who you really are", this was a Lester re-shoot dub, as I can tell the difference in Margo's voice) doesn't do it for me. She put much more emotion into the take used in the DC. Though I did end up using that extra bit of dialogue in my fancut hehe.
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Post by joey m on Sept 12, 2010 1:03:32 GMT -5
I have to figure that Selutron would know that Donner would never kill Lois and have a downer ending. Also, are the scenes from II that were different in the ABC/TV version than the Donner cut on youtube anywhere?
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Post by Valentine Smith on Sept 12, 2010 13:56:34 GMT -5
I do now, and have felt since the moment I first saw the scene, that Superman II should end with Lois in tears, knowing and keeping his secret. That's got some real weight to it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 12, 2010 17:46:11 GMT -5
Well, I definitely agree that the Diner, Fortress, and Balcony scenes where Lois talks sound COMPLETELY different--- but to me, I know I may be wrong- but- it doesn't sound like Kidder to me in the RDC. Kidder said in an interview blurb that Thau asked her to voice dub some lines, but that she'd said that her voice dropped an octave and wouldn't match now--- so....just like Reeve was dubbed in a couple of lines in the RDC, it doesn't sound like Kidder to me in those scenes- so much so, that it compelled me to change the edit to the IRC/ABC Kidder voice.
Again, I totally get that I could be wrong and that the lines are the first Donner Kidder voices, but it sounds like someone else to me. Even in STM, Kidder's voice has always sounded extremely deep, and in those scenes, it sounded too high for me to accept it being her.....
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 12, 2010 19:31:54 GMT -5
CAM, I think it's pretty easy to figure out. Since we got Reeve's original reading of "he knew" in the diner, it only stands to reason that it's Kidder's voice as well. Same goes for all of Stamp's lines which of course is the most obvious. The only times it's NOT Kidder's voice is: 1. The screams when she's falling from out the window. Those are stock scream sound effects you can easily find (I've heard them in a few other movies/tv shows), and 2. When she nearly falls off on Non when they're flying to the FOS towards the end. There might be a few more but I haven't watched the Donner Cut once since getting it back in 2006 and watched it 2-3 times. The fan cuts were released so quickly that it was easy to never go back to the DC again.
CAM, I think the reason you're so unsure is, since your fan cut is very Lester heavy (as far as which scenes you use) you've become so used to Kidder's voice in the Lester's scenes where it IS deeper, compared to her voice in the DC scenes, that to you it's become set in stone lol. Re-watch the screen test scene (or any movies she's done in the time before or during Superman) and listen carefully. Trust me it's her lol.
Either way, I simply prefer her DC readings more. Sometimes an actor is only as good as the director coaching them. I would like to see ALL the unused footage with the original sound. And I'm talking of course about the FULL FOS goodbye scene from the RIC scene where she mentions "buying my own little rainbow...etc". I can tell for sure that the RIC scene was dubbed by the actors under Lester's direction, based on the change in Kidder's voice.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 13, 2010 15:13:17 GMT -5
Good arguments, I trust you--- I won't argue that rewatching the ABC tv version a gabillion times with the theatrical hasn't hardened how I experience the line readings at this stage. On the flip side, is "I'm not a coward Zod" Reeve's?  Also..... would anyone know if the rooftop confrontation (not the stuff on the ground) was shot by Donner? I've always assumed it wasn't, but it's not the first instance where things have come into question--- (i.e. Photos of the 'real' Kidder in Superman's costume during the FOS explosion on Jim Bower's Capedwonder website--- suggesting that maybe it WASN'T a double for a few of the depowering shots...) |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 13, 2010 15:59:24 GMT -5
The "I'm not a coward Zod" in the DC is anyone's guess. As for the rooftop confrontation, I used to think that the shot of Reeve saying 'General' (cut to reaction shots) "Would you care to step outside?" were shot by Donner. Reeve's spitcurl was what made me so sure. The spitcurl is much more pronounced in Donner's shots than in Lester's. And in that shot, Reeve's hair looked much more like it does in Donner's scenes than in Lester's scenes.
However, upon looking at the shot in freeze frame while working on my cut, by looking at the books and posters on Perry's wall, as well as the background plates, I'm positive that it was shot by Lester. Also, Lester being from Europe, I've noticed that a lot of English director's like to do "call-backs" by referring to a line earlier in the film. "Shaun of the Dead" does it a lot, as well as Batman Begins (When Batman says "You haven't given up on me" and Alfred says "Never"). it's kinda cheap writing IMO, but at the same time, "Step outside" works MUCH better than "freedom of the press".
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EvilSupes
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Post by EvilSupes on Sept 13, 2010 16:13:54 GMT -5
Good arguments, I trust you--- I won't argue that rewatching the ABC tv version a gabillion times with the theatrical hasn't hardened how I experience the line readings at this stage. On the flip side, is "I'm not a coward Zod" Reeve's? Also..... would anyone know if the rooftop confrontation (not the stuff on the ground) was shot by Donner? I've always assumed it wasn't, but it's not the first instance where things have come into question--- (i.e. Photos of the 'real' Kidder in Superman's costume during the FOS explosion on Jim Bower's Capedwonder website--- suggesting that maybe it WASN'T a double for a few of the depowering shots...) Yeah WTF was going on with those lines?!? In the DC that line "I'm not a coward Zod" sounds completely wrong. Why was it changed? Compared to the Lester version of that scene, that line sounds 100% Reeve. Some of the changes in the DC, were just really weird. |
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 14, 2010 8:25:43 GMT -5
I believe they had to dub, "I'm not a coward, Zod" because in the Lester scene, you can hear Non starting to growl and the way the shots were arranged by Thau, it would have been out of place. It's always funny to me how they say they "found all of the elements" when they clearly haven't when it comes down to stuff like that. The dubs were a major turn off for me when it came to the RDC. I kind of wish that we could have gotten a decent widescreen print of the RIC, were the dubbing wasn't an issue. I felt that Thau only had access to "second best takes" throughout the film, evident with Brando's scenes. Seems like he was at the "mumbling" stage of his performance in the scenes featuring him in the RDC, while most of his takes in Superman: The Movie have him more poised and audible. Also, did anyone feel that the foley sound effects were too loud and noticeable? I felt that way when I saw the Blu-ray edition of it. Another reason to enjoy the original sound on Superman: The Movie.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 14, 2010 9:16:55 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. Yeah, it seems like they didn't have access to the RIC. Otherwise, all the scenes that were there in both would've been in the DC as well. Then again, seeing as how we have the same takes with different dubbings for Stamp, it's possible they had both at their disposal, and chose to go with the original readings.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 14, 2010 10:05:39 GMT -5
Agreed. That's what's so frustrating in watching the RDC and talking about it....
#1: Did they or didn't they find all the elements?
In the documentary, Thau mentioned that at times, the film had deteriorated so much that they HAD to use an alternate take to keep the quality consistent.... but how often did this happen?
There are just TOOOO many bad choices made in the RDC (even 'rescoring' scenes that were fine as is- i.e.- Donner's moon attack) to lay this down on just that aspect.*
It certainly doesn't forgive the AWFUL below-amateur 'special effects' that were more 1930's era rather than 1970's era for the space backdrops and the bouncing Jor-el head.
((*In fact, if that was the only sin with the RDC, then I wouldn't personally bash on it so much, but in general I'd have to agree that the IRC so far is the best official coherent mixed 'real' cut so far.))
In the end, with all the extra 'definitive' and 'ultimate' cuts that have been/are coming out, I know that everyone on the board would buy another expanded cut of SII if it had new footage, or even the IRC in DVD quality, but WB must not think that there's enough demand for it (Joel Shumacher mentioned wanting to recut "Batman Forever", but WB not being interested. While it's no "Batman Begins", there are parts in that film that would make it interesting enough for me to buy it, imo).... and/or especially if Donner is done with the project as well.
In that regard, I'm glad that Selutron (and that production company) at least are trying to stimulate SOME action going back to trying to restore SII.... but it does seem like an uphill battle. With Donner's interest before, it wasn't enough to get WB going on it--- Without Donner's interest, it would seem even less likely. *sigh*
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Sept 14, 2010 15:34:38 GMT -5
Ugh, just ranting and raving here, but you know what? WB has no excuses. They've been getting letters from fans like for, how long? Nearly 30 years since the the TV versions first aired?
Back in 2004-2005 when they nabbed Synger to make Superman Returns, obviously WB knew they were gonna make the Donner Cut. They should've had everything ready to go. Instead what we ended up with was a rushed, no budget-release that, as many of us have pointed out, did a better job on our computers with NO MONEY.
If WB ever gets a new Superman project going, and they feel like giving S2 another go, they BETTER have Selutron's number on speed dial. And if Thau comes knocking on their doors, kindly show him off the property.
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 14, 2010 20:31:51 GMT -5
They had to of have access to it, as the deleted scenes are sourced from it. I'm sure it was just a print of it with no way to manipulate the sounds needed for the project.
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matt
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Post by matt on Nov 9, 2010 14:53:23 GMT -5
Does anyone know if Selutron will try to restart this project since the new movie is coming?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 9, 2010 16:14:40 GMT -5
Here's hoping that WB offers something SUBSTANTIAL that's new for an Superman dvd release to help promote the new film. (STM/SII IRC! IRC! Or Singer's Extended SR! Preferably both! Hint Hint)
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 9, 2010 16:19:19 GMT -5
Hopefully we'll hear from him in the coming months as the project finally gets going. We can only hope that WB is smart enough to listen to him.
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Post by indo77 on Nov 10, 2010 7:44:03 GMT -5
Nothing new ever really happens with this...
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Post by jor-el76 on Nov 11, 2010 11:26:22 GMT -5
I would like to try to understand with your help if there are many people like me really hope Selutron Vision will be produce from warner near the new Snyder Movie, so we must try to let us know to the Warner we want it.
so please vote!
thank you
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 11, 2010 13:33:02 GMT -5
I would like to try to understand with your help if there are many people like me really hope Selutron Vision will be produce from warner near the new Snyder Movie, so we must try to let us know to the Warner we want it. so please vote! thank you We were able to get WB to make the Donner Cut when Returns came out, now it's time to let our voices be heard AGAIN and get the REAL Superman 2 that we all thought we'd get the first time. Considering Sel has spoken to them already, I'm REALLY hoping that they've got his number and are just waiting for the new film to get moving. |
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Post by jor-el76 on Nov 12, 2010 10:20:21 GMT -5
I would like to try to understand with your help if there are many people like me really hope Selutron Vision will be produce from warner near the new Snyder Movie, so we must try to let us know to the Warner we want it. so please vote! thank you We were able to get WB to make the Donner Cut when Returns came out, now it's time to let our voices be heard AGAIN and get the REAL Superman 2 that we all thought we'd get the first time. Considering Sel has spoken to them already, I'm REALLY hoping that they've got his number and are just waiting for the new film to get moving. thank you for your support on this dream! i really hope for a new version with Selutron supervision. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 12, 2010 13:14:36 GMT -5
It's hard, given the history of the interactions we've heard of between Donner & WB about Superman II to know how WB really wants to approach the whole thing. It seems like there are always five looming questions: I: Does WB care if Donner gives his approval? I'd assume so on some level. I often wonder if things change enough, if the director just has the right to remove his name from the credits (like David Lynch with "Dune"- tv cut) but little more. Wonder if there's a standard contract as far as that goes, but it certainly doesn't HELP if Donner has been given a copy of Selutron's work by Mank & has said nothing. II: Would Donner give his approval if asked? Donner has a reputation for loyalty to friends (*from articles and interviews I've read, never met the guy personally) & knows first-hand what it's like to be replaced creatively..... so unless Thau is given consideration first, or unless Donner really wants to go through the emotional experience of SII again on any level---- Given what's there, I kind of doubt it- but I think it depends on how it's asked. I bet if fellow filmmakers who were giant fans about STM* (i.e. Bryan Singer, Raimi, Nolan) were rabid about a recut--- that they could sway Donner's mind. But without it.... hard to see how he would want to. If anything, he kept on wanting to cut things OUT of the film! A recut might be even shorter than the RDC, so that's a worry! (*sigh*) III: Given that there some rather significant changes to the material (Blending in WB's "The Swarm"), would WB be willing/able to use other footage from their other films in this way for public release? While there was talk of licensing other previously-used footage in the Thau interview.... I've seen footage paid and used for 'straight to dvd' disaster films---- but rarely 'name' actors (i.e. Jason Robards)' footage reused and repackaged for other films, without their ok. Stuff with extras (i.e. a crowd scene) probably is cheap to license, but stuff with name actors in a performance..... never seen it before. But not impossible, I suppose- STM did already have some extra footage from 'the Swarm' to begin with (the train sequence) licensed- so I don't know, it would be great if they get the ok, but I don't know how complex/costly that might be.... IV: Would releasing the IRC be more realistic at this point? The Blade Runner 5 disc is fantastic, if only for releasing just about every version available to mankind be available to the public for a price. I'd imagine that WB must have bought the rights to re-release this on dvd.... and it doesn't use footage from other films to repurpose for it. Personally, I would love both IRC and Selutron version- but I do wonder how much on the fence WB really is, if there's not a push from Donner as well to complete a new recut of SII & moneywise how much more money would actually be put into this to complete it? If Donner was privately disappointed at the work that Thau did with the RDC, I could see him energized for the opportunity to take another stab at it & make it feel more like a continuation of the original. Without his pushing, I wonder who at WB would push this hard enough to happen? V: Is there more that Selutron can do to make this happen? Personally, I think so. There is stuff on youtube that's low res that people still would buy in hi-res, if officially released. Look at "Dr.Horrible's Singalong Blog"- Released for free on the web--- then, afterwards, the hi-res dvd sold great on Amazon, even though it was for free for all in the first place. If Selutron worked out an ok by Warners to go back to youtube to put up (officially) more spectacular clips of the metro battle to make people's eyes pop out of their heads, I think it can't hurt the project, but only gain more attention. Strictly being on Capedwonder- while I love that site, I'm not certain if the mainstream KNOWS all about Capedwonder.com. Youtube- well, anything that gets a gabillion hits, does seem to get more notice in Hollywood nowadays. So, anyhow- just thinking out loud..... Selutron, give us more clips! Help us help you!  |
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atp
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Post by atp on Nov 12, 2010 17:21:44 GMT -5
It's hard, given the history of the interactions we've heard of between Donner & WB about Superman II to know how WB really wants to approach the whole thing. It seems like there are always five looming questions: I: Does WB care if Donner gives his approval? I'd assume so on some level. I often wonder if things change enough, if the director just has the right to remove his name from the credits (like David Lynch with "Dune"- tv cut) but little more. Wonder if there's a standard contract as far as that goes, but it certainly doesn't HELP if Donner has been given a copy of Selutron's work by Mank & has said nothing. II: Would Donner give his approval if asked? Donner has a reputation for loyalty to friends (*from articles and interviews I've read, never met the guy personally) & knows first-hand what it's like to be replaced creatively..... so unless Thau is given consideration first, or unless Donner really wants to go through the emotional experience of SII again on any level---- Given what's there, I kind of doubt it- but I think it depends on how it's asked. I bet if fellow filmmakers who were giant fans about STM* (i.e. Bryan Singer, Raimi, Nolan) were rabid about a recut--- that they could sway Donner's mind. But without it.... hard to see how he would want to. If anything, he kept on wanting to cut things OUT of the film! A recut might be even shorter than the RDC, so that's a worry! (*sigh*) III: Given that there some rather significant changes to the material (Blending in WB's "The Swarm"), would WB be willing/able to use other footage from their other films in this way for public release? While there was talk of licensing other previously-used footage in the Thau interview.... I've seen footage paid and used for 'straight to dvd' disaster films---- but rarely 'name' actors (i.e. Jason Robards)' footage reused and repackaged for other films, without their ok. Stuff with extras (i.e. a crowd scene) probably is cheap to license, but stuff with name actors in a performance..... never seen it before. But not impossible, I suppose- STM did already have some extra footage from 'the Swarm' to begin with (the train sequence) licensed- so I don't know, it would be great if they get the ok, but I don't know how complex/costly that might be.... IV: Would releasing the IRC be more realistic at this point? The Blade Runner 5 disc is fantastic, if only for releasing just about every version available to mankind be available to the public for a price. I'd imagine that WB must have bought the rights to re-release this on dvd.... and it doesn't use footage from other films to repurpose for it. Personally, I would love both IRC and Selutron version- but I do wonder how much on the fence WB really is, if there's not a push from Donner as well to complete a new recut of SII & moneywise how much more money would actually be put into this to complete it? If Donner was privately disappointed at the work that Thau did with the RDC, I could see him energized for the opportunity to take another stab at it & make it feel more like a continuation of the original. Without his pushing, I wonder who at WB would push this hard enough to happen? V: Is there more that Selutron can do to make this happen? Personally, I think so. There is stuff on youtube that's low res that people still would buy in hi-res, if officially released. Look at "Dr.Horrible's Singalong Blog"- Released for free on the web--- then, afterwards, the hi-res dvd sold great on Amazon, even though it was for free for all in the first place. If Selutron worked out an ok by Warners to go back to youtube to put up (officially) more spectacular clips of the metro battle to make people's eyes pop out of their heads, I think it can't hurt the project, but only gain more attention. Strictly being on Capedwonder- while I love that site, I'm not certain if the mainstream KNOWS all about Capedwonder.com. Youtube- well, anything that gets a gabillion hits, does seem to get more notice in Hollywood nowadays. So, anyhow- just thinking out loud..... Selutron, give us more clips! Help us help you! Do you think there's any chance Selutron could create ... well .. you know...? |
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