|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 17, 2011 20:20:34 GMT -5
One & one only. The scene where the xk101 rocket evades Superman when he tries to catch it head on. That said, I'm not sitting through a "color corrected" pan & scan 3 hour long fancut just to see it. I said for S2. We already established that the scenes re-inserted for S1 against Donner's wishes is wrong because it's his film, and they added nothing anyway. So, which scenes from the RIC/Donner Cut of Superman 2 that were re-inserted do you feel were unnecessary? |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Apr 17, 2011 20:44:40 GMT -5
Pretty much anything that wasnt in the Donner of Lester cut.
The RIC stuff was neat to see once, but I cant say I'd ever watch it again.
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 18, 2011 15:50:13 GMT -5
Pretty much anything that wasnt in the Donner of Lester cut. Wait, I'm confused, do you mean Donner stuff that's in both versions, or do you mean the Donner stuff that's in the theatrical ONLY? And btw, you're entitled to your opinion, but considering how terribly the Donner Cut was edited (and the way SOME of the Donner footage was butchered for the theatrical), I lean more towards the RIC. Then again, I was raised on it my entire life. It's the most "official" version in my mind. But, to be fair, I can see why certain things are cut out. And considering how much editing I've done for my cut now (as well as fan cuts of plenty of other films I've seen and enjoy over the official versions AND official director's cuts of other films), there are no more "lines" as to what counts as something that "belongs" and something that doesn't. With everyone being able to become they're own unofficial directors/writers/editors in the comfort of their own homes, it seems to me that film has now become a more "open for interpretation" style of art instead of a very "concrete" style (whatever the director wants, he gets). When the option over something that stays in or gets cut out is simply a matter of an entire scene that may or may not expand on a character, or even just one line that may change the motivation of the character, it's hard for me to say what belongs. Especially when I now can play the puppeteer dangling the strings now, ya know? lol. For example, you say you don't care for the added RIC footage. However, What if one scene that was in the RIC but not the Donner Cut WAS put in? Like say, the added dialogue at the end when Lois says "It's the old eternal triangle. Only in this case, I have all of humanity waiting in the next room". This one line shows that Lois IS ok with knowing Superman's identity. If this one line had been kept in, how much you wanna bet that more of the fan cuts would've chosen for a "open' ending like me and Booshman have done? And NOT had to make a decision between the memory kiss or the time-reversal? Please don't take any of this the wrong way. It just seems to me that, based on the way you say it, you make it sound like you're very pro-"Whatever is in the official versions is what I stick to. No exceptions". Then again, considering this dissertation I'm giving you, I can see why you'd stick to the official versions. Look at the holes it digs lol. |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Apr 18, 2011 16:02:26 GMT -5
Ugh. Done.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Apr 18, 2011 16:08:52 GMT -5
I think he means Donner-shot stuff that wasn't in either version. For me, the stuff that was shot by both directors but in neither version:
Additional mission control banter - silly, it should go
Additional talk on the moon - should have been in there, continues Ursa's character
Lex goes North - (it's his home, it's his home!) nice, but not necessary
Niagara - pretty much should remain as Lester cut it, all that extra stuff (photographer loading film for 30 seconds) is incredibly stupid
Lex at Fortress - the extra bits with Lex ("count em, three super villains") was better in the RIC. Donner/Mank used a crappy take for the DC, not to mention the flubbed line.
Lex goes South - Nice to have, but not strictly necessary, just like the first Lex deleted scene
Non kills the boy - Should have been in there, it retains the cold nature of Donner's three villains, even though Lester shot it
Souffle - The point of the scene (double entendre) is lost since you already see the characters fully dressed as they say the lines - it should go
White House - "no one can get through here!" and the Nixon portrait, wise removals in both versions
Extended Metropolis fight - nothing added to the RIC added much to the story. Zod shouting "KILLLLL HIIIIIIM" was laughable.
Villains breaking into the Fortress - Not necessary. It also introduces a continuity error as the villains break in and fly into the Fortress, yet in the next shot, Lex and Lois are being carried in. The scene flows much better if they just arrive at the Fortress.
Superman reveals the trick to Lex - I liked the added bits in the RIC. Superman's line about "I know I shouldn't trust you, but I'll have to take a chance"should have been there. It makes it pretty obvious that he expects Lex to immediately double-cross him, while in the official versions, Superman comes off more like a chump.
Arctic Police - In theatrical cut, its omission makes sense, but in the DC, we see Superman destroying the Fortress immediately. You can't have one without the other. Should have been included along with FOS destruction, otherwise, cut both out.
Added Superman/Lois talking outside Fortress - should have been included
Clark bumps into big bald guy - SHOULD BE IN THERE, either cut. Though cut it before he runs into the closet (sorry Reeves fans). It makes the end scene with Rocky make more sense.
The Donner cut would have been so much better if they actually included everything Donner shot. Instead, they tried to wrap up each scene as quickly as possible, and it felt like a rushed mess.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 18, 2011 18:12:19 GMT -5
Wow! Well-covered, Jimbo! I find myself agreeing with most of your choices- the only bit I see differently would be would be including the criminals' breaking into the fortress (the idea of Jorel foreseeing an attack by other Kryptonians & having a force field to protect against it, versus 'harmless' humans I thought was too cool to not to be included). Couldn't agree more!  |
|
|
|
Post by Kamdan on Apr 18, 2011 22:32:46 GMT -5
No dice, unless they have a film print of the RIC cut of Superman II.
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 19, 2011 14:36:00 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sorry if "The Donner of Lester cut" doesn't make sense to me and just tried to clarify. If you had said "The Donner scenes of the Lester cut" or 'The Donner OR Lester cut", then it would have been fine. I only had to clarify before when I said "which scenes from the RIC do you like?", and you tell me a scene from the KCOP. I'm trying to be civilized and not lose my cool when I need to explain what I'm saying and you give me the wrong responses, while also trying to keep the conversation casual with "lol"s and "I see your point of view" so as to show no animosity. Then you go and basically write me off. As to say "I'm not wasting any more time with this idiot". Meanwhile, I was thinking the same thing earlier. Guess you beat me to it. |
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Apr 19, 2011 19:12:00 GMT -5
Calm down Spanky.
"Ugh done" was meant to mean "I really don't care about any of this, so I'm not wasting my time on it any more".
The only reason I chimed in whatsoever was to say: WB is never gonna release an obscure, bloated for television version of a movie onto BluRay or DVD, Firstly because it sucks. Secondly, because there is virtually no money to be made from it.
Other than that, I had no interest in discussing the finer points of scenes that add no value to the movie whatsoever. There is such a thing as quality over quantity. Having every ounce of existing footage spliced into a movie is not my idea of a good time. Any of the additional scenes I wanted to see were included in the official extras.
The ones that I liked were these (as stated by Jimbo):
Non kills the boy - Should have been in there, it retains the cold nature of Donner's three villains, even though Lester shot it.
Arctic Police - In theatrical cut, its omission makes sense, but in the DC, we see Superman destroying the Fortress immediately. You can't have one without the other. Should have been included along with FOS destruction, otherwise, cut both out.
Clark bumps into big bald guy - SHOULD BE IN THERE, either cut. Though cut it before he runs into the closet (sorry Reeves fans). It makes the end scene with Rocky make more sense.
Everything else, I dislike.
And no, I don't like the Lois line "Old eternal triangle" It was overkill & made her sound like she was rambling on. Killed the timing of the whole scene.
Sorry that you felt slighted. I was just being dragged further into a conversation that I really don't care that much about.
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 19, 2011 19:28:13 GMT -5
Alright, sorry I lost my cool. I'll drop it from here. Anyway, you'll be happy to know that in my fancut I go from Reeve's close-up to the Diner revenge scene. No closet walk-in for my tastes either.
|
|
|
|
Post by MAVERICK on Apr 19, 2011 19:32:44 GMT -5
Good choice. That's how I did it in my cut as well And again, I didn't mean to come off like a dickhead. After I spent a year making my fancut with Jimbo, I didn't wanna watch any version of SII for a year ;D ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 20, 2011 9:56:11 GMT -5
Well, they did release Supergirl on dvd. And it would seem to fit both of those criteria.  |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Apr 20, 2011 11:06:12 GMT -5
After I spent a year making my fancut with Jimbo, I didn't wanna watch any version of SII for a year ;D ;D ;D Wait a second. Is your fancut the Jimbo cut? Cuz if it is he sent me a copy of it a while back. I gotta say it's one of my favorite fan cuts, and I've seen all of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Scissorpuppy on Apr 20, 2011 12:14:24 GMT -5
I would say it's a possibility, Universal released both TV versions of Dune and Waterworld. Going as far as remastering the Dune version from original elements to fix the aspect ratio issue. (The original broadcast version was edited on video for Pan Scan tv viewing.) BUT! I also think that if WB were going to release this stuff, it would have been done in 2006 or at least for the new boxset. They should have at least include everything as deleted scenes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Apr 20, 2011 14:00:45 GMT -5
After I spent a year making my fancut with Jimbo, I didn't wanna watch any version of SII for a year ;D ;D ;D Wait a second. Is your fancut the Jimbo cut? Cuz if it is he sent me a copy of it a while back. I gotta say it's one of my favorite fan cuts, and I've seen all of them. Thanks for that. But no, MAV's was almost completely different. At the time, he had the idea and I had the software, so I put together his idea for him. |
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Apr 20, 2011 15:00:33 GMT -5
i'd want all the deleted scenes in a supplement- jim's right- a lot of it is awful ,some of it is cool, and it's all interesting in one way or another.
mav is right that its exceedingly unlikely that it will ever get released officially, so keep track of the bootlegs. but unlike many - i DO like watching the loooooonnng cuts from time to time.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 21, 2011 0:46:25 GMT -5
You're right- I TOTALLY forgot about that! Lynch disowned it enough to have his name removed from the credits....and Universal STILL proceeded to release it officially. (And from what I can glean, "Dune" isn't exactly "Star Wars" in terms of a giant audience)
With all the net attention that is given to the STM IRC fixing.... you'd think that WB would want to look into the possibility a bit more of investing in an official IRC dvd one over an unofficial one being made out there....
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2011 21:31:24 GMT -5
BTW- I'd mentioned this a little awhile ago- about WB having a service w/Amazon where they take OLD titles (I believe this one was for straight to tv) and make dvds to order, so that they're not stuck with tons of inventory (presumably) and still make a profit. www.amazon.com/Legends-Super-Heroes-Adam-West/dp/B0049IHWYG/ref=pd_ybh_4?pf_rd_p=280800601&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=ybh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=156ARFYJRW35Y1V16FYYJust received this in the mail- and the quality is actually pretty good! The market for this HAD/HAS to be small.... and I'm sure that they probably used a master for tv. If WB isn't interested in going back to the original elements and releasing the IRC in widescreen like Universal did for "Dune"'s tv cut, then if they use the master for television that they probably used here, it's totally fine with me, quality wise. Crossing fingers, if this is the only way to get it- I'd prefer widescreen, but if WB thinks about releasing the IRC pan & scan via this service, then it's better than nothing.... |
|
|
|
Post by Scissorpuppy on Apr 25, 2011 21:42:59 GMT -5
The WB Archive series is actually doing very well. They are even going to begin doing Blu rays soon! Evidently some of the titles are even getting brand new masters from the original elements. I'd say the chance of the Tv cuts of the Superman films are about 50/50. If a loud enough voice was to make it to the right people, then maybe...
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 26, 2011 10:53:09 GMT -5
Nice.
Again, I'd much rather that the IRC's came from the originals & be in widescreen- but WB seems to have a weird thing about not releasing things in widescreen. Babylon 5 was shot all in widescreen, but the series was released only in pan & scan.
But- as I said- right now, it'd be nice to get the IRC STM & SII in dvd quality in any format.....(although I can only imagine how painful it would be for the fans working on restoring it for months if they did)...
|
|
|
|
Post by indo77 on Apr 26, 2011 17:27:11 GMT -5
In the UK shows are never released in Pan and Scan.
|
|
|
|
Post by Scissorpuppy on Apr 26, 2011 20:19:54 GMT -5
WB seems to have a weird thing about not releasing things in widescreen. Babylon 5 was shot all in widescreen, but the series was released only in pan & scan. What region are you? The Babylon 5 sets I have are 16x9 anamorphic from HD transfers of the footage. The problem is that any shots that feature visual effects were rendered in 4x3 480i during the original run in the 90's. Instead of redoing the effects they cropped the image to 16x9. This is also why the show won't be on BLU, until they decide to recreate the effects. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 27, 2011 0:55:02 GMT -5
I'm in the US. I purchased the original Bab5 sets when they first came out (stupid me) at its highest prices. I didn't know that they rendered the fx in 4x3, but only that they shot the whole series in letterbox from the get go & that the sets I bought were in pan & scan (aside from the main titles).... if they come out in letterbox in BLU, I'm there.
|
|
|
|
Post by Scissorpuppy on Apr 27, 2011 4:15:01 GMT -5
Yeah the plan was to spend the money for 4x3 rendering for broadcast and then re-render the effects in 16x9 at a later date when widescreen/HD tvs where the norm. But all the original effects files are lost.
Here is what the Wikipedia article says...
Mastering problems
The transfer of Babylon 5 from fullscreen to widescreen (originally for the Sci Fi Channel; later released on DVD) created significant problems with regard to special-effects/CGI footage. Several factors complicated the process.[118]
* Although originally broadcast in the standard television aspect ratio of 4:3, all live-action footage was filmed on Super 35 mm film (with a ratio of 1.65:1). The idea was that, once widescreen televisions (with an aspect ratio of 16:9 or 1.78:1) became more popular, the episodes could be easily converted into a widescreen format.
* CGI shots were rendered in the 4:3 ratio, but designed so that the top and bottom of each shot could be removed to create a widescreen image without ruining the image composition. For the widescreen DVD releases technical problems occurred during the progressive scan transfer and re-formatting, introducing artifacts that resulted in a picture quality of the CGI shots now inferior to the few laserdisc and other 4:3 home video releases.
* While the camera negatives of the original live-action shots held the potential for high-definition digital images, the CGI shots and shots combining live-action with CGI, were stored in the much lower-definition NTSC digital format. (Again, the expectation was that it would be relatively cheap in the future to recreate the CGI in widescreen.)
* Over the years, the original computer-generated models, and so on, have been lost, making it necessary to use the old 4:3 CGI shots. Both Foundation Imaging and its successor, Netter Digital, have gone out of business.
This has resulted in several consistent flaws throughout the Babylon 5 widescreen release. In particular, quality drops significantly whenever a scene cuts from purely live-action to a shot combining live-action and CGI. This is particularly noticeable on the PAL DVDs, since CGI shots had to be converted from NTSC, as well as being blown up to fit a widescreen television. In addition, while the live-action film was originally widescreen, shots were composed for 4:3, resulting in a conspicuous tendency for actors to clump up in the middle of the screen.[118]
For these reasons, Warner Home Video is unlikely to release the series on Blu-Ray. Additionally, a Blu-Ray version of the first Lost Tales installment, Voices in the Dark, was cancelled due to poor sales.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 27, 2011 11:34:46 GMT -5
Interesting- thanks for sharing! Well- at least if WB does release the IRCs in widescreen (I know the odds seem impossible, but...) , presumably they do have all the elements stored (hopefully they didn't just decide to throw everything in the dumpster once the Donner cut got released) and catalogued that remained from STM and SII by Donner & thankfully don't have to worry about any CGI problems, as CGI was never part of it to begin with. ((*Though, sad about that fx house going out of business and sad about Bab5 trying to have thought about these problems ahead of time for quality control, only to be confounded by the other issues to compromise it.)) *sigh*  |
|
