Selutron's Superman II Cut

[Super Sebastian]

Dec 26, 2008 12:09:06 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Mr Thau gets a rough time, but he was working with a miniscule budget -- probably the same amount of money as a 30-second TV commercial -- and time pressures. Not to mention having his hand forced by Donner and Mankiewicz and Lester.

There are SO many sins in how the RDC was cut...

...including UNNECESSARY changes that made the viewing experience so much worse - it's hard to believe that the time and money (and Donner pressure) caused it to look so disastrous overall.

Thankfully, enough scenes are intact to make fan cuts possible, though.

That is true, do you see also the bad space backgrounds that they use? look like take it from a series of the 50 or 60.

[crazy_asian_man]

Agreed. The line on the RDC about how the fx were 'made to look like they came from the 1970's and not from 2006' is total b.s.

Instead, it looked like a space background from the 1950's, I agree. Yuck.

[Kirok]

A movie that did it right matching two eras of special effects was the Director's Edition of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." Sure there are a couple of dodgy shots here and there but it puts the RDC (and the Star Wars Special Editions for that matter) to shame in that respect.

EDIT: It's a shame we won't be getting that version of the film in HD though. Maybe if the new film is a success they'll find it profitable to uprender the effects after all.

[crazy_asian_man]

A movie that did it right matching two eras of special effects was the Director's Edition of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." Sure there are a couple of dodgy shots here and there but it puts the RDC (and the Star Wars Special Editions for that matter) to shame in that respect.

Agreed! Didn't Mike Matessino (also responsible for the Superman CD collection) help with that one? Pity he wasn't in charge of the RDC...

Another one that did it perfectly was Blade Runner.

[joey m]

The low budget doesn't even seem like the main problem. The decision to make it as different (not better) as possible from the existing version came down from above, that's not a creative decision that Thau can be blamed for. That was political and hype -related. (remember the big to-do about how big the "Donner percentage" was gonna be?) It might even be a legal thing since Lester's name is nowhere on it, his work has to be minimized at any cost. That includes stuff like the crummy space backgrounds, which wouldn't even be necessary otherwise. Blade Runner and Star Trek had none of this lameness to deal with.
(And I can totally picture Donner at this point going "I'm too old for this shit." Murtaugh-style!)

[crazy_asian_man]

The decision to make it as different (not better) as possible from the existing version came down from above, that's not a creative decision that Thau can be blamed for.

I'm curious... where did you get this info? Would love to read it, as this is the first I've heard about this...do you have a link?

[joey m]

Well, Thau did a lot of press, I might've been thinking of this: www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=interview-michael-thau2

especially:

"Q: Was there ever consideration given to presenting Donner's "Superman II" scenes as a series of separate scenes in a supplementary materials section to the theatrical version of "Superman II" rather than putting together a cohesive film?

A: That was Warner Brothers. They wanted a Donner Cut. "
and

Q: Which you didn't really do as much on the "Superman II" Donner cut which does short-hand certain scenes from "Superman" and Lester's "Superman II".

A: Well, at the beginning of this process, I said to the Warner Brothers guys, do you want a - what I call a -- kitchen-sink cut, which is to throw everything in it like we did for "Superman I" or do you want a tight Donner-esque cut? That's what they wanted."

[crazy_asian_man]

"Q: Was there ever consideration given to presenting Donner's "Superman II" scenes as a series of separate scenes in a supplementary materials section to the theatrical version of "Superman II" rather than putting together a cohesive film?

A: That was Warner Brothers. They wanted a Donner Cut. "
and

Q: Which you didn't really do as much on the "Superman II" Donner cut which does short-hand certain scenes from "Superman" and Lester's "Superman II".

A: Well, at the beginning of this process, I said to the Warner Brothers guys, do you want a - what I call a -- kitchen-sink cut, which is to throw everything in it like we did for "Superman I" or do you want a tight Donner-esque cut? That's what they wanted."

I guess it's a matter of interpretation between the lines. In reading this, I get that WB wanted a full cut that differed from the theatrical, but how much it had to differ (if WB demanded a change in Ken Thorne's score on places where it already worked perfectly- i.e.- The moon sequence/attack on the Daily Planet) isn't really spelled out.

It is possible that it's exactly what WB wanted- to change everything regardless--- but from the interview it's also general enough that Thau could have also just gone with general guidelines and either made some of the gaffes either on his own or from worrying about what WB wanted and going too far.

In any case, I don't think there's anyone around who doesn't want a better attempt at another Donner cut from WB.

[Kamdan]

Does anyone have Selutron's Concord scene? That's the only major sequence he finished that's not on Caped Wonder. I want to see it again. BADLY.

[crazy_asian_man]

Does anyone have Selutron's Concord scene? That's the only major sequence he finished that's not on Caped Wonder.

I don't think it was ever made available on Caped Wonder--- I thought possibly because it used footage from Airport '79- which I don't think is owned by WB. (Presumably the other movie footage WB owns as part of its library and got WB's ok to post on CW - like from the "DC attack" scene.)

Besides youtube, I don't think it was available anywhere else as a download.

[Jimbo]

Too bad it was made available sub-DVD resolution. I could have used some of that stuff. ;D

[Gandy]

I was listening to commentary track on the RDC -- and there's a funny moment where Dick talks about not taking the comic book as "face value", then a few seconds later Miss Teschmacher flushes the toilet.

;D

[Jor-L5150]

part of th eproblem is we all idolised the donner superman II , even though we KNEW it was never finished , and that donner, being a combination of perfectionist/prgmatist would have reshot stuff if he could ....

we had expectations that were unrealistic , and the editing gaffes magnified that .

hypothetically , donner would have made a better SII , but he never finished it , so we have a facsimilie - which donner himself said.

so , for production value the theatrical cut wins, for " story material " the donner cut wins ( imo ) .

[Jor-L5150]

Dec 24, 2008 17:24:50 GMT -5 joey m said:

A lot of stuff really was out of Thau's control, especially the decision to minimize the Lester (and Ken Thorne) as much as possible, no matter how it hurt the movie. I wonder if it'd be best to just keep the theatrical cut as a base, since it's actually, like, finished but just reinstate Brando and Hackman where possible, ditch the slapstick and the cellophane "S" and...somehow...use Donner's Lois and Clark material in the final 10 minutes, without turning back the earth. Whatever ending Selutron may have come up with, that would be the marketing hook ("alternate ending! For the first time in 30 years, see Superman 2 without being totally annoyed at the end!"). I wish he's spill on his idea for the ending since I think it should be floated out there ahead of time.

YES.

i think a LOT of were expecting that the RIC would be the skeleton of the film , trim out the extraneous " camp " , and trade out lester- scenes- for - donner - scenes .

thats all we wanted. heck , cut out the paris scene , use the screen test for blank bullets ..... what we were expecting was common-sense approach. but after 20-odd years of donner's SII being ignored WB went to the other extreme .

[Jor-L5150]

watched some of sleutron's clips at caped wonder last night.

sweet criminey those are some good ideas- VERY ambitious work. if they could do that but with pro equipment ...man it'd be an amazing thing to see....

[crazy_asian_man]

I agree that most of Selutron's stuff is fantastic.

Here's hoping that the continuing 'negative buzz' about the editing of the RDC results in a new cut--- I remember reading somewhere that Joel Schumacher wanted to re-edit "Batman Forever"- which probably had a lot less work to finish on it than a new RDC would need (re-inserting scenes for Batman Forever I would imagine being the extent of it)--- and with the huge grosses of TDK, I haven't heard a peep about this getting the greenlight- was this because there doesn't seem to be any real 'buzz' about fans wanting a new cut? Or does WB just not favor recuts???

Still, in looking at that situation--- where the directof of the film wants a recut of a film that has finished fx and only needs to add deleted scenes and can't get it--- I think it's a good reminder of just how remarkable that the RDC was greenlit at all, with all the obstacles that probably existed there. I'm of course hoping there's a newer cut, but.....bottom line--- .right now it's just wishing and hoping and not knowing how to help the situation....
*sigh*

[Jor-L5150]

Jan 1, 2009 5:00:01 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I agree that most of Selutron's stuff is fantastic.

Here's hoping that the continuing 'negative buzz' about the editing of the RDC results in a new cut--- I remember reading somewhere that Joel Schumacher wanted to re-edit "Batman Forever"- which probably had a lot less work to finish on it than a new RDC would need (re-inserting scenes for Batman Forever I would imagine being the extent of it)--- and with the huge grosses of TDK, I haven't heard a peep about this getting the greenlight- was this because there doesn't seem to be any real 'buzz' about fans wanting a new cut? Or does WB just not favor recuts???

Still, in looking at that situation--- where the directof of the film wants a recut of a film that has finished fx and only needs to add deleted scenes and can't get it--- I think it's a good reminder of just how remarkable that the RDC was greenlit at all, with all the obstacles that probably existed there. I'm of course hoping there's a newer cut, but.....bottom line--- .right now it's just wishing and hoping and not knowing how to help the situation....
*sigh*

a possibility is that SReturns was a quai-sequel to donnerverse , and singer was open to connecting SR to a previous series , whearas the Nolan-verse batman is decidedly NOT connected to burton-verse and maybe out of respect for nolan they essentially mothball the old ones ( of course they're still available , like the timm-verse , but WB isnt spending any more time in burton-verse when nolan-verse is going on ) and shoumacers movies need more than inserted deleted scenes- they need A LOT removed ! lol!

but aside from that i DO agree with you- it was amazing the way fans got this to happen . stuff like this doesnt happen often.

[crazy_asian_man]

a possibility is that SReturns was a quai-sequel to donnerverse , and singer was open to connecting SR to a previous series

That's an excellent point- one I hadn't thought of.... as to why one Superman movie recut got greenlit, yet another Batman movie recut requested by its own director was denied.

On a side note, echoing the amazing fact that RDC even got made:

Considering how Singer fought to get WB to cut through the red tape (and pay $$$ I'm sure) to get the rights to use Brando as Jor-el footage, too--- I think that SR naysayers should at least recognize that (probably) we never would have been able to SEE the SII Brando footage possibly EVER, (and by extension, any of the newer RDC footage) if it wasn't for Singer's SR's needing Brando to be in it.*

(*I'm assuming of course that either WB got the rights to reuse the footage for the RDC either at a large discount or simultaneously when they bought the rights for Singer to use...)

[Jor-L5150]

YES. excellent point. regardless of what people think of SR ,or the editing of SII:RDC we FINALLY got to see the brando footage that had been hidden away for 20-odd years , never meant to be seen.

we got to see it , and the mystery is put to rest.

...on with the fancuts!

[Kirok]

Jan 1, 2009 18:50:12 GMT -5 Jor-L5150 said:

YES. excellent point. regardless of what people think of SR ,or the editing of SII:RDC we FINALLY got to see the brando footage that had been hidden away for 20-odd years , never meant to be seen.

we got to see it , and the mystery is put to rest.

...on with the fancuts!

I feel the same way myself. SR was far from perfect and had many a missed opportunity, but it served as a means to finally see the "lost scenes" of Superman II, an important part in the Donner/Reeve Superman legacy.

However, it isn't over yet and it remains to be seen if there are indeed better takes of the material available for use in a future (Selutron) edit of the film. It seems odd to wonder such a thing, but considering what a mixed bag the RDC is who knows. That there even exists Donner material like the deleted scenes on the RDC DVD and extended bits as featured in the RIC that were not properly restored is strange enough.

Much like SR allowed for the RDC, perhaps a Singer sequel will allow for a Selutron re-edit. Regardless of one's stance on SR or a potential sequel, the possibility of a Superman II that as someone so eloquently put, "That you're not embarrassed to show your friends," is worth it.

[EvilSupes]

I hear where you're coming from CAM.

I watched the Donner cut the other day, and once again the repeating music cues and general use of slapstick cgi grated on me once more. So, I've decided to try and make my own cut following the outline of the international cut.

I really can't be bothered trying to 'fix' elements of the movie that look bad, instead they will either be cut out or replaced with the original Lester footage.

Maybe it's not such a bad thing, as it definitely gives people the inspiration to make a further improved version.

[Ollie W]

Jan 3, 2009 5:51:50 GMT -5 Kirok said:

allow for a Selutron re-edit.

Not a Selutron re-edit IMO.

He's an ideas man. He wanted Thau to take a more 'creative approach' to the material and he's shown us what can be achieved with that type of mindset.

His re-cap and release of the Villains is pure genius but I think many of his clips are just a bit too clever and it'd be a shame if he got too carried away.

I'd certainly want Selutron very much involved if a re-edit were to take place, but there's only one man I'd want to edit SII and that's Stuart Baird, who had a strong hand in making STM a great movie.

[matt]

Best Clip Ever!

[Keith]

Dahaha, that was great! ;D

[Jimbo]

That's an awesome clip. For a short time, I entertained the idea of making the entire movie like that. It would probably destroy my brain and any respect for the movie if I did.