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Post by smd on Jul 27, 2009 20:35:41 GMT -5
It seems to me that one of the many disappointments of the DC was the unrefined acting; specifically in the restored Christopher Reeve material.
It was prolly a bit gut wrenching to finally see Donner's take of Reeve crying out in the fortress... and have it be so... so... unrefined. A bit of the magic was lost and suddenly Lester's green crystal scene looked pretty darn good.
I understand that Reeve's very first scenes on the shoot were with Jor-El so it's possible that he hadn't fully 'found' his character yet. Donner even stated himself that he shot certain sequences just to get them 'in the can' so he could move on knowing he could shoot pieces later.
However, it is also very well known that Donner was very meticulous and shot many takes of with his actors. Is it possible that the 'bad acting' of the Donner Cut is primarily due to Mr. Thau's poor skills as an editor? Did Thau utilize inferior takes either due to incompetence or the inability to find additional takes?
I believe that the answer to this question could very well be a disheartening (or encouraging if we're waiting for Selutron to deliver) yes! Thau used inferior takes in the newly restored Donner material and it was not, I believe, because of the infancy of the Reeve material.
My rationale is this: compare the takes Thau used of Lex Luthor when he listens to Jor-El in the fortress compared the much superior takes in the Lester Cut. If this material had not been in the Theatrical cut, then we would perhaps suspect that Donner didn't have time to polish this 'newly restored scene' yet it is apparent from watching the theatrical SII that it was simply Thau messing up the acting himself.
My point, I suppose, is that the 'bad acting' of Donner's restored scenes are not indicative of a lack of rehoots or coverage or what-have-you. They are primarily the result of sub-par editing.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 27, 2009 21:18:41 GMT -5
Agreed 1000%. If one looks at the body of work that Donner has done, even if there were times where the scripts were less than stellar ("Assassins", "Timeline", for example), consistently performances are always there. heck, he even made the usually-awful Julia Roberts (yeah, yeah, she won an Academy Award under Soderberg's direction, but...)- look great in "Conspiracy Theory"--- Sad that the RDC didn't come with a disclaimer at the beginning: "Poorly edited by Thau, forgive how some of the performances appear."  |
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Post by Matt in the Hat on Jul 27, 2009 22:27:51 GMT -5
Bit harsh. Besides, I only hated the one small part where it just lasted like one second too long where Jor-El says he'll give up his essence. "Father, no--". Coulda been tightened up, but otherwise am fine with the performances in all.
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Post by Jimbo on Jul 28, 2009 1:03:52 GMT -5
Bad acting? Bad editing? Haha, just compare the extended ABC cut to the Donner cut for when Lex is in the Fortress. They used a FLUBBED line in the Donner cut while in the extended ABC cut, they used the proper line. "It's too good to be true." The Donner Cut used what should have ended up on a blooper reel. Thau didn't even notice it was a flubbed line or what? Or maybe they thought "hey, that sounds funny!" and kept it.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 28, 2009 1:06:22 GMT -5
The number of the (BAD) extra trims that Thau made into the Donner-shot sequences that looked like they were already set to go by Baird in the IRC is probably what has made me a bit hostile for life towards Thau..... how can someone do that?  (Not to mention the horrible 'bouncing head Jor-el'- ough) He got paid. We paid full price for the dvd and waited decades for the opportunity to see the footage. Unless it was Donner's overruling on all the bad choices, I think being harsh on Thau's hacking and cutting is ok.  |
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Post by smd on Jul 30, 2009 21:19:49 GMT -5
The number of the (BAD) extra trims that Thau made into the Donner-shot sequences that looked like they were already set to go by Baird in the IRC is probably what has made me a bit hostile for life towards Thau..... how can someone do that? (Not to mention the horrible 'bouncing head Jor-el'- ough) He got paid. We paid full price for the dvd and waited decades for the opportunity to see the footage. Unless it was Donner's overruling on all the bad choices, I think being harsh on Thau's hacking and cutting is ok. Yeah I guess Thau cut out Lois talking about the 'eternal triangle' because that reference wouldn't make as much sense to a 2006 audience. Truth be told, I don't even get it, but it was still good acting and one of only a few precious Donner scenes between Kidder and Clark; why cut it down? Cutting out the arctic police was just unforgivable, why cut this crucial scene whilst insisting upon putting in an ending that makes no sense? |
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 30, 2009 21:43:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure it's so much that there's bad acting. I think it's just that the Lester scenes in question were better.
I loved Reeve's acting in the Lester redemption scene. In the Donner cut, Clark/Supes/Kal seems a little more like a spoiled brat than the Superman we know. It's seem very un-Reeve to say, "After all I've done for them."
It makes it seem more like Superman was saving people at the behest of his dad than because it came naturally from him.
I don't like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 23:52:40 GMT -5
I think there's plenty of bad acting in the Donner Cut.
Even Reeve's "Father, no....!" before he loses his powers...in fact, pretty much that entire scene, I felt Reeve overdid it. Like, a lot.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 31, 2009 14:26:18 GMT -5
I thought it bold that the script went to suggest that there was a point that Superman would at times be exhausted with the human race; but what was in the final movie (either one) doesn't really give that aspect enough time to really have all that much of an impact to be there, or have a real payoff.
At first glance, it does seem off-character for Superman to resent even one second of helping others, but, just like the out-of-wedlock baby, it depends on how far one wants the humanizing to go for Superman, and how perfect one feels he is/should be, to be accurate to the character. I'm ok with it either way. Later on, Jorel does challenge how good Supes' does feel while helping others, so I thought that that helped undercut what Supes' REALLY felt about helping others...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 31, 2009 14:29:44 GMT -5
I'm sure there's a lot of bad acting in STM, too...but in that case, most of that probably got edited out.
Considering all the other bits of poor editing choices in the RDC, it's not impossible that there were better takes or better ways to shape performances, under a better editor. I'm not saying Reeve is perfect and can't do a bad performance, but most of Donner's films are well edited with great performances.
If it's a case of 'had to rush the shoot/performances because we have to get Brando's stuff in the can quick', then maybe it's not Thau....but....
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 31, 2009 16:24:02 GMT -5
- i DO think we have yet to see all of the footage , i would like ot see an " extended scenes " , " alternate takes " , " outtakes " , " rehearsal " compilation . it is possible that THAU was simply in a big damnhurry ( he WAS ) and grabbed whichever reel had the scene needed for reconstruction .
remember that the egregious time-warp ending , and hack-cuts of lester shots were done at the behest of donner himself .
having said that , i have to think that donner ( who notoriously loved to do many many takes - AND - shoot from as many angles as possible ) managed to get better scenes than what we saw- but he had no energy or passion to restore it himself ( like ridley scott did for blade runner's final cut ) but was resigned to say " keep this ..lose this .." ( like ridley scott's ' directors cut " of blade runner ) .
by the time lester was reshooting , reeve had nearly 3 years on the project and plenty of time to hone his craft - but i dont think he was ever " bad " . the scene in STM where he - ALMOST - reveals himself to lois after the " can you read my mind " sequence is exquisit .
yeah- i think there is better material to be had in all those canisters sitting there in the vault , it just takes time and money and WB has no interst in expending either on superman these days.
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- superman exasperrated with humanity ? you bet he is! i can totally understand that ! its not that he dopesnt want to help - but he is rightly frustrated that all he does is never enough and that his father has chosen his path for him ( as a living monument to krypton ) .
superman sees crime , perversity war and weeps for a people who want him when its convenient , but ignore him when he is in the way .
its very deep archetypal ( sp?) stuff , even Jesus in the gospels blew his stack now and then - with his own followers !
for all the talk about superman being a boy-scout and a stodgy old-fashioned character - i LIKE seeing him humanised . of course he'd get annoyed, frustrated etc.
( in " the incredibles " mr incredible begins the film frustrated by always having to save the day . " cant it just stay saved ?!" he asks.....but in the course of the movie he misses his role as hero and feels impelled to defy the rules and return to duty . very character-driven )
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Post by smd on Jul 31, 2009 21:22:47 GMT -5
Well Donners depowering scene was meant to have Superman be somewhat selfish and frusterated. It would have played out well if cut against the villains taking over the world and causing serious death/destruction.
Instead we got a Lester's sweeter de-powered scene which worked well since it was played against a much lesser threat by the villain in the campy East Houston scenes.
In Donners take, Superman was unquestionably making a mistake in giving up his powers while in Lester's it feels like a natural thing that Kal-El would/should do.
The tonality of Superman's decision is validated by the threat caused by the villains. A greater threat means Superman is indeed making a huge mistake so we can allow him to feel selfish and angry.
Essentially, we are (as always) forced to judge Donners scenes out of context
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Post by SuperSnooper on Aug 1, 2009 5:34:33 GMT -5
Another reason for the "poor acting" could be the fact that it was Reeve's first day on the shoot and he was probably still in theatre mode that day.
When he shouts "Father!!!!" Brando was probably not it yet and Donner hung a bagel on a string for an eyeline for Reeve to act to.
Thau's choice (if it was) is terrible though, Reeve is stammering a line and then loses his train of thought and just shouts FATHER!!! into nowhere.
Almost as bad as Darth Vader screaming "Nooooooooo!!!!"
Almost.
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Aug 1, 2009 8:27:50 GMT -5
Acting aside (although it was a factor), I think it's a case of "less is more." In Donner's repowering, Reeve monologues: "There's no one to help them now, the people of the world...I've traded my birthright for a life of submission in a world of your enemies..." etc, etc. It's too wordy and dialogue-esque.
Compare that to Reeve's simple self reflection in Lester's repowering: "I really wish you could hear me...because I need you. You see, I...I failed..." Much more to the point and natural, not sounding at all scripted and stilted like Donner's version.
This is why all the best fan edits start out with Lester's version then transition to Donner's when Jor-El shows up. Even then it's dodgy because of Reeve's acting, the special effects, and the repetitiveness of both Jor-El's dialogue and the music, but it's the best compromise. Also, whoever's idea it was to make the Fortress dimly lit and green in Lester's version (was it Lester?) gets major props. It really helps set he mood for the scene as opposed to the business-as-usual look the Fortress has in Donner's version.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Aug 1, 2009 9:48:45 GMT -5
I think if a line or 2 is re-arranged (or cut), and maybe the pitch of Reeve's voice is lowered a bit, making his voice deeper, I could tolerate his speech, but ONLY if his "Father!!" is replaced by the one in the Lester scene. Also, I've seen the Donner Cut scene edited to match the dark green setting in a few fan cuts. I've also seen some of Jor-el's lines cut, as well as a few more of Reeve's lines.
Other than that the main problem is that's there's really no "impact" for what is supposed to be one of the most important scenes that brings parts 1 and 2 together. Cheap special effects, repetitive music, and no resolution. We just see him laying there.
I've discussed this on the other thread of my "proposed" fan edit. CAM's take on this scene (using scenes from part 1 and repeating Jor-el's speech back on Krypton) helps deliver that emotional 'punch' that the scene so desperately needs. I would take it a step further though and use the shirt reveal from part 3. I've seen it rotoscoped in a video on youtube.
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Post by Kamdan on Aug 1, 2009 11:10:23 GMT -5
Lester’s version of the scene will always be close to me, because it reminded me of when I said goodbye to my grandfather at his funeral. It was in a darkly lit church and I was all alone, almost just like in the film. Donner’s was to brightly lit and TRIED to be emotional, but failed. That usally happens in scenes like that one. They try to hard and it shows.
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Post by smd on Aug 1, 2009 20:27:12 GMT -5
I do think that a darkened fortress works best. Is there a fan cut that keeps the scene dark even when Jor- El appears?
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The Phantom Menace
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Post by The Phantom Menace on Aug 1, 2009 20:58:47 GMT -5
The darkened Fortress has to be some of Rob Paynter's best cinematography on the Superman films.
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atp
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Post by atp on Aug 1, 2009 23:41:06 GMT -5
Acting aside (although it was a factor), I think it's a case of "less is more." In Donner's repowering, Reeve monologues: "There's no one to help them now, the people of the world...I've traded my birthright for a life of submission in a world of your enemies..." etc, etc. It's too wordy and dialogue-esque. Compare that to Reeve's simple self reflection in Lester's repowering: "I really wish you could hear me...because I need you. You see, I...I failed..." Much more to the point and natural, not sounding at all scripted and stilted like Donner's version.. Exactly right. In the Donner crap, it doesn't sound like even Reeve believes what he is saying. |
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Post by Rod on Aug 2, 2009 0:07:23 GMT -5
I would take it a step further though and use the shirt reveal from part 3. I've seen it rotoscoped in a video on youtube. I would love to see that in S2.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 2, 2009 9:53:42 GMT -5
Everyone makes great points here-
I know many darken it in the beginning, until Jor-el appears, much like Selutron's cuts-
I have to admit, when I finally got my hands on a copy of the Donner script (sans ending), I also imagined that the entire scene was played in a darkly-lit Fortress..... ((one of the few things that Lester actually got right.))- and I have to admit darker would have been better shot that way, but....
Even though the scenes can be darkened artificially in the computer, personally, the final effect looks worse to me than brightening up the Lester- but, it's all opinion, of course. Ideally, the Donner stuff (even though it's sacriligeous to say this) should have been lit darkly for that scene to begin with.
Another possibility is: Given the lower level of special fx technology at that time, is it possible that Donner's fx team reccomended NOT changing the lighting so as to achieve the Jor-el fx at that time? (Though nowadays, that fx could be done much easier on the home computer)
Talking about the performance- there are a few options that are possible that everyone's metioned as to why that scene is a disappointment:
#1: theory- the performance IS there, but chosen/cut badly (I believe it)
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#2: The performance wasn't there- YET.
Agreed. Donner had Brando only for a limited amount of time to start and end (like Hackman)- and Reeve didn't have the time to hone things as this was one of the first things shot. Given not just STM, but other films by Donner- emotional scenes are Donner's strengths. (One of his underrated best is: "Inside Moves"- ).
Could have also been this- but Thau's cutting didn't help.
#3- Theory- It's just over-written.
I would agree--- but I actually really loved what Mank wrote- but envisioned Reeve delivering it slowly and deliberately--- as if the magnitude of what he'd done finally done had finally hit him. It also (as written) helped echo and underscore the idea of Superman as a greek god amongst humans- rather than as more human than God (and at times slapstick foil) under Lester's version.
((*Also, it kind of matches the writing done for Jor-el. Which is maybe one of the things that was initially a bit jarring- the 'multiple types of movies in one' concept Donner went for. If Krypton, Smallville, and Metropolis were different types of movies, so were the scenes with Jor-el and Supes talking, as well.))
Again- in written form. In the performance..... the writing and directing of the Lester version is more effective of Supes- but the Donner/Mank concept bends more towards the metaphor of Supes as a God of sorts, which I liked.
((Also..... The Donner performance take chosen by Thau is really rushed, and it is a little confusing. What is he looking for, when Reeve is rushing in? To rush in, kick around crystals, then cry out to his father needed cutting- making those choices, then cutting it all in one take makes the whole thing look a bit stitled. Lester's version is slower--- as if Reeve already knows that it's too late, and is humiliated by his choices.))
In any case, I still felt a need to cut either the Lester or Donner version that came out, so I'm in agreement that it never quite got finished in the style of the Donner/Baird STM- and that - again - the Donner cut ironically probably isn't a great representative of what Donner would have finished at the time.
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Post by smd on Aug 2, 2009 19:44:05 GMT -5
I agree with all your points crazy asian man, save one. I don't see how it would be easier to lighten Lester's dark fortress scene over darkening Donner'rs.
It's always easier to darken something as opposed to lightening it I think. That said, I saw your new re-powering scene and thought it was pretty good. Very cool choices you made!
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Post by Kamdan on Aug 2, 2009 22:25:42 GMT -5
I also want to know why there was full length Jor-El footage used in the film, while only head shots of Jor-El exsited (as indicated by the outtakes).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 3, 2009 21:18:53 GMT -5
Thanks SMD!  About lightening versus darkening..... both are easy, but I should have said that I just didn't like how it looked when darkening the Donner material--- looked more artificially generated to me than bumping up the lighting for the Lester. It's just a question of what one prefers, ultimately.... (And I would have preferred it if Donner had shot the whole scene with the darker lighting in the first place, but, oh well...)
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Post by Matt in the Hat on Aug 4, 2009 1:15:36 GMT -5
IMO Reeve isn't supposed to sound like Clark or Superman in the repowering scene. He's the kid who fucked up and daddy's gotta clean it up. It makes sense he sounds the way he does. AGAIN IMO.
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