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Post by tservo2049 on Oct 15, 2009 20:28:33 GMT -5
hecko,
I used to be a member of the old forum back in 2000-02 or thereabouts.
After all these years, I’m still curious about the whole story that there was live-action footage (plates?) filmed in what was then Yugoslavia, for the "villains conquer the world" montage in Donner's version of Superman II. Since all the old forum posts are long gone, I can’t remember – how did we hear about this?
And why is it that nobody has talked about it for so many years, especially since the Donner cut came out? We don’t even know if this stuff was in the loads of footage Thau found.
Also, I haven’t seen the Donner cut yet, but could someone clue me in (I sure wish Ahem were still here right now): Is the Statue of Liberty destruction stuff original material shot by Derek Meddings & crew in ’77-‘78? I remember seeing excerpts in some preview on YouTube back in ‘06 and I was amazed, because the clips (or, to be precise, the various elements; I knew it was digitally composited) seemed to imply that Thau & co. found the long-gossiped-about Donner SII effects elements. (Remember the meme about Les Bowie’s fridge?)
However, I’m looking all this stuff up on Google, etc., and I can find little talk about the effects in the RDC (except as relating to the Brando effects, etc.). I know that only minimal CGI was used – so does that mean that the rocket explosion, the Statue of Liberty torch explosion, etc. unused Meddings FX work?
Again, I sure wish Ahem were still here...
-Jeffrey
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Post by MAVERICK on Oct 15, 2009 20:51:08 GMT -5
Welcome back Servo. I hope someone here can answer your question, I remember nothing about this. As for Ahem, I cant even remember why he isnt around anymore. It was either he got banned, or he pulled an "I'm smarter & better than everyone" rant & then left. Maybe someone could refresh my memory. Anyway, welcome back home lad  |
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Post by EnriqueH on Oct 15, 2009 22:46:34 GMT -5
I can't answer your question but I can welcome you back. I remember you. How you been?
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Post by tservo2049 on Oct 15, 2009 22:55:27 GMT -5
I'm fine. I'm not really gonna be here as a totally active member, my primary reason for signing up was to ask this particular question, since I saw that some of the same people were around.
I just vaguely remember the Yugoslavia stories, but I'm not even sure if the person who brought us this info is still around. The effects questions were intended for Ahem, but he's not here anymore, so if anybody else can answer them that'd be great.
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Post by Matt in the Hat on Oct 16, 2009 15:45:02 GMT -5
I remember this briefly. I believe it was not shot at all. There was a breakdown many years ago to figure out what may/may not have been shot, and i believe this was speculated, but no proof that it was.
As for the other effects in the SIIRDC, yeah, a lot of stuff like the statue of liberty was shot back then, just digitally composited with Thau-o-vision.
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Post by tservo2049 on Oct 16, 2009 16:20:40 GMT -5
I guess I should have known - Ahem did mention the Statue of Liberty scene on some other forum some time before the RDC.
It feels like all the speculation and discussion in the years before the RDC sort of dropped off after it came out. I wish someone were given access to the archives so we could find out what Thau didn't include (and possibly incomplete sequences and bits and bobs that couldn't be included...)
Of course, that'll never happen...
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Post by Bobby M on Oct 19, 2009 10:44:45 GMT -5
I too have yet to see the Donner cut of SII, but have heard of the scene you talk about. The scale of the worldwide destruction would really have added to the film and made it grow up in a powerful way. Wasn't there also supposed to be a scene with Zod perched on the Washington Monument?
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atp
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Post by atp on Oct 31, 2009 13:11:24 GMT -5
hecko, I used to be a member of the old forum back in 2000-02 or thereabouts. After all these years, I’m still curious about the whole story that there was live-action footage (plates?) filmed in what was then Yugoslavia, for the "villains conquer the world" montage in Donner's version of Superman II. Since all the old forum posts are long gone, I can’t remember – how did we hear about this? And why is it that nobody has talked about it for so many years, especially since the Donner cut came out? We don’t even know if this stuff was in the loads of footage Thau found. Also, I haven’t seen the Donner cut yet, but could someone clue me in (I sure wish Ahem were still here right now): Is the Statue of Liberty destruction stuff original material shot by Derek Meddings & crew in ’77-‘78? I remember seeing excerpts in some preview on YouTube back in ‘06 and I was amazed, because the clips (or, to be precise, the various elements; I knew it was digitally composited) seemed to imply that Thau & co. found the long-gossiped-about Donner SII effects elements. (Remember the meme about Les Bowie’s fridge?) However, I’m looking all this stuff up on Google, etc., and I can find little talk about the effects in the RDC (except as relating to the Brando effects, etc.). I know that only minimal CGI was used – so does that mean that the rocket explosion, the Statue of Liberty torch explosion, etc. unused Meddings FX work? Again, I sure wish Ahem were still here... -Jeffrey What was this scene, and how come it wasn't in the Donner cut? |
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Gandy
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Post by Gandy on Nov 1, 2009 7:26:04 GMT -5
Ahem is one of my best friends -- he 's doing well after going through some tough years. Superman is far from his mind now.
As for the Yugo stuff, I can't remember much from the old boards but I suspect it was to do with the villains flying over iconic monuments.
You haven't seen the RDC? Forget the criticism and just enjoy some Donner directed footage.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 1, 2009 9:12:21 GMT -5
As for Ahem, I cant even remember why he isnt around anymore. It was either he got banned, or he pulled an "I'm smarter & better than everyone" rant & then left. Maybe someone could refresh my memory. Neither actually, and wrong of you to flippantly suggest otherwise. Like Gandy said, he's had a bad time of it; I suppose because he chooses not to chat with us bastards that makes some people conclude he thinks he's better than us. A lot of the old regs don't bother anymore; people just move on. As for the RDC, see it as as collection of deleted scenes rather than a film or else you'll be sorely disapointed. |
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Post by atp on Nov 1, 2009 16:25:48 GMT -5
As for the Yugo stuff, I can't remember much from the old boards but I suspect it was to do with the villains flying over iconic monuments. . Think the Donner Cut would have been better with these in? |
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Post by MAVERICK on Nov 2, 2009 12:42:08 GMT -5
Ahem is one of my best friends -- he 's doing well after going through some tough years. Superman is far from his mind now. You know what, I had Ahem mixed up with an other of our old time members named Drew. My bad & My apologies. And I'm sorry to hear that he was going through a bad spell, & I'm glad that he's doing better now. As for you Russ, I simply made a mistake. Flippantly or otherwise. |
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 2, 2009 13:07:37 GMT -5
haha, Drew. I remember him. Didn't he call himself "no.2 pencil" or something?
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Legsy
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Post by Legsy on Nov 2, 2009 13:27:21 GMT -5
Wasn't he Costa Del Lex at one point?
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 3, 2009 8:20:00 GMT -5
Costa Del Lex? Wasn't he Neil S Bulk's mate?
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Gandy
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Post by Gandy on Nov 5, 2009 3:47:23 GMT -5
Drew had a major problem with me -- mostly to do with the fact that I was giving some credit to Lester and apparently selling out to Ilya Salkind. There are two sides to every story and somewhere inbetween lies the truth. Drew is a good guy but let his STM devotion get in the way of looking at the issues objectively.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 5, 2009 4:50:14 GMT -5
I am glad people aren't as blind pro Donner as they were; shades of grey, not black and white.
Lester screwed the franchise with SIII though
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Gandy
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Post by Gandy on Nov 5, 2009 5:03:05 GMT -5
Superman III is really a great concept that was never explored to its full potential. Superman vs Superman is reduced to a set-piece when it could've been sooo much better.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 5, 2009 6:39:18 GMT -5
which the fault can be blamed on the director
Should have been deep and introspective; Reeve had the acting chops to pull it off too.
Superman making peace with himself and his role after the stuff with Lois in II would have completed his journey and finalised his arc.
Would have made a brilliant trilogy
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 5, 2009 9:40:09 GMT -5
I don't know where I read this quote, but one of the reviews for the Donner Cut said "Fans were expecting the Holy Grail, but all they got was a plain old cup." Basically what it comes down to is, for Lester we have completed shots, with little substance. For Donner we have incomplete shots that have a ton of substance (just not shot right).
Who knows how much better the scenes in the Donner Cut would have looked had he came back and re-shot them. After doing 2 drafts of my own fan cut, I've realized that, like Selutron implied, the Lester scenes can work, with edits and trims. The crystal coming out of the ground for "recorded Jor-el" being a great example.
I'm going to do a 3rd (and hopefully final) draft of my fan cut over the winter break (gotta get a real dvd burner, better video editing software, the latest S1 and S2 dvds, etc...) and I'll post some clips here if anyone is interested. I've taken ideas from from Veris, CAM, Sel, and a few others (as well as A LOT of my own ideas), to make what I feel is the "perfect" cut...for me lol.
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Post by atp on Nov 5, 2009 20:00:21 GMT -5
I don't know where I read this quote, but one of the reviews for the Donner Cut said "Fans were expecting the Holy Grail, but all they got was a plain old cup." It was worse. For me, it felt like I got the cup Donovan drank from in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 5, 2009 20:24:15 GMT -5
And just like a few scenes from the Superman movies, there's another one that scared me as a kid lol.
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Post by Matt in the Hat on Nov 6, 2009 1:47:24 GMT -5
I have definitely my own unique view on things over the last few years seeing all this stuff come together and hearing more about the production back in the 70s. I mean, yeah, its all good to have your own ideas, but re-cutting something that wasn't what you worked on in the first place with a completely different mindset from the director at the time causes a very unsatisfying feeling. I've felt more turned off from doing any editing of my own because of this. Unlike some others on this board, i did not grow up with superman II. In my mind, it's one of those movies i can watch with perhaps more of an open eye due to that. When you look at the whole of the situation, it's two separate movies mashed together with completely different intentions and styles. And taking a bit from one part that may "look good" in one perspective like viewing Jor-El in the crystal that Susannah york came out of, you would lose perhaps what Donner wanted Jor-El to look like and how he would preside over Superman and Lois back then at that specific point in the movie, which gives off a different impression of what the scene should be telling you about their relationship. You have to reeeealllly get into the minds of the people who made it and best reflect it. Not just go for a visual cue. Hence why I kinda just don't even wanna start something like that. Too much work for something that maybe 2 people would watch. One being me.
And as for the people who were involved and what happened in the end, I could put judgment on Ilya, Spengler, Lester or Donner, but in the end what's really the point? We got what we got because as Ilya says: "It's everybody's fault and no ones fault." Even though he's one of the guy's that fired a director halfway through a movie, I'd still buy Ilya a pint if he were ever in the midwest. And even if Donner mouthed off a bit and got himself in that situation, I'd still wouldn't mind hanging out with him too.
And I can't blame Thau too much either on the cutting of stuff. He did well with what he had, and after all these years finished a Superman II with the original director how he wanted it to be before a specific major rewrite (lois dying). Sure it's not in perspective with the theatrical Superman I, but heck, not too many chances come up to do something like this. Best not to judge SII RDC as your end-all-be-all-cure-your-fan-boy-blues movie. Nothing will fill THAT expectation ever. I wanted an apple, they gave me an orange. And I'm still pretty dang content with it.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Nov 6, 2009 7:34:33 GMT -5
like I got the cup Donovan drank from in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Thau chose...poorly |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 6, 2009 10:57:14 GMT -5
Matt, I agree with everything you're saying. And I understand what you mean when you say you have different views towards the film. However, I grew up on this movie. When I watch it I still get those old childhood feelings of awe and wonder whenever those notes kick in and the S is revealed. I still get teary eyed in S1 when Superman saves Lois and catches the helicopter with one hand. I've done a few things with my edit (as well as other editors) that bring out these same emotions.
After finding out the history of S2 (after buying it on tape again when I was 12 and noticing about 20 minutes of footage was missing), a hole was made that I thought could never be repaired.
From a editors standpoint, I'll admit it has gotten to a point where it simply isn't a matter of what "works" and what doesn't anymore. For example, Clark's speech at the end of the Diner scene. Do I go with the Lester dubs, or the original audio? I prefer the acting in Reeve's voice in the Lester version (save for "they knew"), but prefer Kidder's voice in the Donner Cut. Which do I go with? Can I edit it so I can use both at the same time? I have to tackle it and find out.
I've decided that I have to do what simply works for me. I have, literally almost 10 different versions of S2 at this point. Each fan cut has ideas that I like, but never fully satisfy me. I don't have a version to go to when I wanna watch the film. Thus, I've taken it upon myself to take what I like about each cut, and change (if possible) what I don't like.
I don't plan on uploading it for people to see like most fan editors do (mostly since I'll be using Sel's clips). This is just for me. Granted when I finish this I'll post clips here (as I've done already) and mail them out to anyone who's interested. It's the least I can do for the community here. I come here everyday and even though I don't post too often, I like that I have somewhere to go to talk and listen to people talk about my favorite fictional character.
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