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Post by snoopkryptodog on Nov 19, 2009 8:33:46 GMT -5
CAM, it's funny you mentioned the Kryptonian gibberish and subtitling. I've long wanted to do a fan cut combining STM/SII into a single movie, that eliminates Lex Luthor from the film completely. Why cut out Luthor? The campiness of his scenes pisses me off !
The issue I had was the fact that Luthor is so vital to SII's ending - why would the villains be at the Daily Planet if not for him? How would they find the fortress without him?
I figured that I could dub in a new Kryptonian language and use subtitles. Using this approach, we could see a cut away to the Daily Planet building as the villains arrive, wherein Zod et al say that they must crush this Superman the president called for to show the world how useless he truly is.
Lois Lane has more knowledge of Superman than anyone else (a fact they found out after receiving military reports on Supes), so they're coming to the Planet to get her. Cut to their assault on the DP, trimmed so Luthor isn't there at all. They'd smash the place up, cut to Supes arrival: "General, would you care to step outside?" The battle continues (with all references to the son of Jor-El clipped, as they'd have no way of knowing he was the son of Jor-El - their motivation now isn't getting the son of their jailor, but to prove their dominance against any threat).
When Supes flees, cue some Kryptonian dialogue about the advanced Kryptonian satellite tracking systems they introduced to the puny human soldiers (possibly cutting to a SIII shot of a satellite, with some Kryptonian crystals rotoscoped onto it). They track Supes to the fortress (Luthor would be rotoscoped out), but when they enter the fortress, Supes immediately blasts them with the red sun machine. Why wouldn't he be waiting inside of it when they arrived, knowing he could strip them of their powers?
Supes falsely surrenders, the villains are caught, Luthor is out of this movie, free to screw up Superman IV instead.
Anyway, CAM, the subtitle approach must just work to bring the SIII and Supergirl together in a more seamless movie, but yuck, rotoscoping a whole new movie that will inherit some major flaws from the source materials just doesn't sound fun. A 3 minute trailer might be cool though (after a long break from your SII cut!)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 19, 2009 12:22:28 GMT -5
Your idea to totally wipeout Lex I have to admit is pretty suprising-
I admit that the Luthor scenes in STM always bugged me, but once I saw the scenes with Lex negotiating with the villains in SII, it made sense to me what Donner was going for--- that the villains were the REAL threat- and Luthor was the comic relief. (NOT the villains, which Lester felt oddly compelled to do)
Still- if a cut were done with cutting out Lex completely- it definitely leaves quite a few holes if you were to do STM/SII as one pic: (Not that it couldn't be done, but it would be tricky)
Just for fun-
Key scenes that would have holes in STM w/o Lex:
* Who calls Supes with the dog-whistle-thing, that makes Supes jump from the top of the building?
* Why does Supes drill a hole in the sidewalk/ why is he walking down the tunnel (if 2006 version is going to be used)
* Who put him underwater with the kryptonite necklace?
* Why are the missiles off-course?
I could see trimming parts of the over-the-top scenes with Luthor and his aides (mostly tampering with the missiles imo), but if you were to remove Lex completely from both movies, fixing the plot holes that would come up otherwise in STM would be a challenge...
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 19, 2009 13:48:39 GMT -5
CAM are you crazy? Your fan cut of S2 is my favorite!! You did SO MUCH more than all the other fan cut's I've seen (and believe me, I've seen almost all of them, including just small edits people did on youtube). I'd say you've done more than Selutron did. The only real problem with your cut (besides being more Lester biased IMO) is that you, as you put it, "threw in everything but the kitchen sink". Now I know I'm sounding hypocritical here, but hear me out.
Yes, the added footage from movies too recent wasn't necessary. Yes, you took some liberties by trying to add new aspects to the film, at least in the Metro battle. The news helicopters, as well as the army being added into the scene was a GREAT idea (as it was in the original script I think). However, it may have been a bit too much of an undertaking for you to try out at this time. These scenes required a lot of imagination as well. Even if we understood what you were going for, it was simply too much for us to go along with.
The only part I don't think adding in more wasn't a problem is the re-powering. Yes it's just the same speech Brando gives in S1 with footage simply taken from S1 as well, but it really adds IMO the emotional weight that the scene called for. I recently watched "Somewhere in Time" and saw the two shots that you used from it to rotoscope into S2. I think that was AMAZING how you did that. I was actually disappointed that you took out the other close-up of Reeve's face from 'Somewhere in time' where he winces in pain. You used this in one of your old edits of the re-powering and I wish you had kept it. Your best rotoscoping was in the beginning of your Metro battle. Specifically with the close-ups like when Supes gets Zod in the headlock.
As I've told you many times before, your cut is the base of my cut. I am going to do a 3rd and final draft where I use the dvds as the best source wherever possible, but I'm still using A LOT of your ideas. I'm even going to try some of the edits you've done for myself. I'm going to get the movies "Capricorn One" and "The Swarm" so I can attempt you and Sel's edits using better quality sources. I already have Ghostbusters on dvd.
Anyway, regardless of you feel about your cut, I love it. I've even shown some bits of my cut that have YOUR edits in there on youtube and Bizarro World and have gotten only positive responses. Maybe I'll post some clips here later.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 19, 2009 16:01:09 GMT -5
Thanks Tyler-
I didn't mean that I would tackle removing Lex from both films- but it's hard to envision how to be able to do that, without either big plot holes and/or rotoscoping, or being willing to lose a lot of Reeve Superman footage.
For JUST Superman II, I can see it being possible to get rid of Lex, as how snoopkryptodog mentioned. For STM, tho', I can't think of how one could remove Lex without losing a lot of Reeve at the same time.
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Post by snoopkryptodog on Nov 19, 2009 16:01:40 GMT -5
Your idea to totally wipeout Lex I have to admit is pretty suprising-
I admit that the Luthor scenes in STM always bugged me, but once I saw the scenes with Lex negotiating with the villains in SII, it made sense to me what Donner was going for--- that the villains were the REAL threat- and Luthor was the comic relief. (NOT the villains, which Lester felt oddly compelled to do)
Still- if a cut were done with cutting out Lex completely- it definitely leaves quite a few holes if you were to do STM/SII as one pic: (Not that it couldn't be done, but it would be tricky)
Just for fun-
Key scenes that would have holes in STM w/o Lex:
* Who calls Supes with the dog-whistle-thing, that makes Supes jump from the top of the building?
THIS SCENE WOULDN'T EXIST - SUPES SIMPLY SEES THE MISSILES MALFUNCTION ON TV (done with some minor rotoscopes) AND FLIES TO CALIFORNIA TO STOP THEM
* Why does Supes drill a hole in the sidewalk/ why is he walking down the tunnel (if 2006 version is going to be used)
THIS SCENE IS ALSO ERASED - THERE'S NO NEED FOR IT IF LUTHOR DOESN'T EXIST
* Who put him underwater with the kryptonite necklace? THIS SCENE IS ERASED TOO - SUPES JUST HEADS WEST TO STOP THE MISSILES
* Why are the missiles off-course? WE SEE THE MISSILES GO OFF COURSE; CUT TO THE EXISTING FOOTAGE OF JOHN RATZENBERGER YELLING "TRAGECTORY MALFUNCTION" - INFERING THE MISSILES HAVE MISFIRED DUE TO MECHANICAL FAILURE
I could see trimming parts of the over-the-top scenes with Luthor and his aides (mostly tampering with the missiles imo), but if you were to remove Lex completely from both movies, fixing the plot holes that would come up otherwise in STM would be a challenge...[/quote]
He's actually easily removed from STM, if other scenes are cut too, as outlined above. Removing Luthor also elminates plot holes from both movies; for example, how does he figure out Supes' weakness just by looking at a photo? What happens to Miss Tesmacher after the Fortress visit in Superman II? How can the guards miss a hot air balloon? How does Lex know that Supes could be called the Smallville Smasher? Why doesn't Zod's superhearing pick up Lex and Supes' plot?
The trick is, Taking him out of both films completely screws up SII's ending, unless it's modified with some minor rotoscopes and dubs, as I outlined in my previous post.
I do agree that Luthor was much better in SII, and contributed more to that film. I have considered trimming the camp, but the fact is, I'm fed up with the same old Superman story, and the entire Lex Luthor character. Luthor's been used in 4 movies, for most seasons of 2 television series, endless cartoons and decades worth of comics. Enough - he's simply not interesting enough for all this attention, though I do enjoy Gene Hackman's acting and some of the Lex/Miss Tessmacher banter.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 19, 2009 18:57:23 GMT -5
Ok, here are a ton of small edits I've done for my 2nd draft of my cut of S2. I plan on doing a 3rd draft which I will make the necessary corrections. There's still some parts of these edits that need cleaning up. The sound in this clip is a bit out of synch but on my finished version it's fine.
1. CAM did a wonderful job of showing Superman in Clark's place (as it was written in the script), but there was an audio problem: the music repeated itself, as did Jimmy's lines. So I removed the repeated cue. This transition is perfect in my opinion and will not be edited further.
2. For pacing issues more than anything else, I decided to cut out Perry's line. CAM edited it so that Perry was talking on the phone. Good idea, but then he repeated some dialogue. I kept Perry shouting "Yeah." as if to say Perry was still distracted by someone outside the office while Lois was speaking.
3. I cut out the Rorschach joke because the footage of Ron Howard doesn't synch up with what he's saying. I'm going to keep the Capricorn 1 footage in, however there are going to be many cuts and edits. The opening of the scene will be shorter (no talk about "claiming this planet" as this is the moon, not Mars). There won't be much dialogue from the astronaut while he's walking (voice is different than actor on the moon). If I can remove the names of the astronauts above their heart monitors, I will do that and replace them with the correct names used in the dialogue (Boris, Blake, etc..).
4. I'm using footage from the KCOP as a way of showing the government was aware of the villains much sooner. The KCOP footage ends after the President's aid says "The Pentagon's calling sir". Then we cut back to the moon. I may need to add an establishing shot of the moon for the quick jump back.
5. Adding back in the RIC lines. I wanted to keep the footage in, but I've realized that I may have to get rid of all the RIC footage altogether. The deleted scenes on the DC show that these scenes DO EXIST in widescreen somewhere.
6. Cut out Eve's line "That was 2 days ago." as it's a continuity error. The villains shouldn't take that long to arrive to Earth. The cut is smooth, but because she doesn't say anything it seems odd. Instead of them stopping and Lex saying "It has everything".I may cut out all lines directed towards the joke completely. Just have them walk towards the crystals.
7. Never liked the close-up of Lois' face here. Also I didn't like the "Clark is jealous of Superman" angle. Doesn't work in the DC screen test, and doesn't work here either. I may cut out Clark's lines completely and go right from "You hungry?" to "Hot Dog". No mention of "nature's most awesome spectacle". This works for pacing issues as well.
8. Ah the Niagra rescue. That kid just falls in slow motion doesn't he? Ok, I faded out his scream (since he IS falling). Moved Lois' "Oh My God" to *almost* off camera. The people notice her running towards the edge immediately. Cut out her first "Help!!" and "Somebody". Cut out a shot of the kid falling. The only thing I forgot to do was use the DC shot of Supes flying in, as he flies in faster. This scene obviously still needs a lot of work.
9. Didn't like Lois constantly saying "It's me!!" So I took a little out. For whatever reason, the program didn't save an edit I added in. When the mother is saying "Give me a heart attack" I had the audio of that fade out while Lois looks up at Supes flying away. The dialogue (as well as the music playing while she says it) helps keep the transition smooth.
10. I've shown my edits of this scene before, but I forgot to show this part. I never liked Superman apologizing and stuttering. So I took it out. Supes is on the cue when Lois mentions dinner.
11. Re-worked CAM's transition of the 2 Selutron scenes. I honestly don't remember what I took out or edited but I do remember that I fixed the volume levels lol.
12. I've seen a few other edits of this scene. It seems I'm not the only one that doesn't like Superman talking about how much he's "done for them". Had Donner stayed on, he probably would've done the same.
13. I didn't like Reeve constantly bowing his head. Those moments of silence seem painfully long for me. Thau could've edited this scene so much better.
14. Prefer Reeve's take in the LC so I dubbed it in. The music change is a problem. When I tackle this again, I may add the entire music from the LC for this part so the music stays consistent.
15. Never liked Reeve just standing there. He knows what he wants to do, so why is he turning back? I don't understand why no other editor took this part out. So I did. However, the change in Brando's face is jarring, so I may add a quick shot of Lois as Supes lands. I tried having Jor-el say "Think Kal-el" as Supes walks into the chamber, but it didn't look or sound good.
16. I think showing the mountains helps establish a sense of scale as to how far they've driven. I moved the dialogue to this shot, added the wide-screen bars, and did a pan up so we can see the mountain tops. Since I don't wanna use RIC footage anymore, I may try to get a similar shot of this elsewhere.
17. Didn't like CAM using the LC shot of Clark saying "I failed" since we heard it already, and it ruins the "flow" of the build-up of him pleading.
18. I didn't like the way Reeve said "I uh...". Same goes for "Father no", Brando saying "Look at me Kal-el" twice, and the way Reeve holds his hand up as Jor-el says goodbye. I slowed down Reeve's reaction shot so I could use it in halves. I don't like losing the "Once before when you were small.." lines, but I think the transition works fine. I'm still trying to find a way to add the lines back in WITHOUT using the close-ups of Reeve. I understand the reason I don't like Reeve's delivery here is because this scene was the first thing they shot.
19. The recent footage of Times Square in the Metro Battle has to go, but I LOVED the echo CAM did for Zod's scream. I changed this part a bit though as I didn't like the close-up of people's reactions.
20. I took Reeve's line from the LC and put it in the DC shot. I like how it's a farther shot instead of a close-up, but obviously Reeve delivered the line better in the take that Lester used.
21. I prefer Non's fall in the DC (the LC take is too comical), but for continuity purposes, I used the LC audio. Actually it's because I used the LC audio over the DC scene.
So there it is. Just some of the things I've done for my edit. My 3rd draft is going to have A LOT of re-working. I'm going to add the "Ursa and the snake" scene back in (as I need a way to show the villains landing on Earth). I'm also probably going to have the "Lex heads south" deleted scene as separate from the the Lex scene at the FOS. All this will be done so that it doesn't take long for the villains to arrive on Earth.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 19, 2009 21:40:07 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 19, 2009 21:52:38 GMT -5
Cool stuff- I like what you did with the KCOP General picking up the phone on the other line of the Capicorn One call- but it does suck that any footage from the KCOP version automatically screams out as an inferior footage. (Something I can't get around either) The idea of using Ursa's "Men...to kill!" dialogue is probably the smartest way to be able to use the dialogue without having to resort to the downgraded footage, as well. The echo of Zod's I wish I could take credit for, but it's actually from the "You will Believe" documentary, at the very end of the credits. About the time it takes for Zod & crew to get to earth and discontinuity of the time--- I actually have more problem with the discontinuities of the changing hairstyles in going from the LC and DC than the time discrepency, oddly.  |
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Nov 19, 2009 22:59:08 GMT -5
Ah, I thought you made it by just taking the line (when Zod is at the white house and shouts on tv) and giving it an echo effect.
As far the RIC lines go, I think hearing the lines without seeing the footage is the only option. I've made it work for that part, now I just have to find a way to add back in the RIC lines in the white house (Praying!! Yes to me!!) and all the additional dialogue between Supes and Lex at the FOS. That one will probably be a lot harder to pull off as the entire sequence last about a minute.
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Post by boogerdawson on Mar 25, 2010 11:54:33 GMT -5
Was looking after my 6 year old autistic nephew and his younger sister the other day, so to keep them at peace I asked them which Superman film they wanted to watch, they picked Supergirl, so I stuck on the director's cut, which I hadn't seen in a while and watched it with them.
Total silence for 2 and a half hours. No fidgets, just the occasional question about the Phantom Zone and how Supergirl changed her hair colour.
I was never a huge fan of this film, but it was the first time that I actually saw it WORK. I also reappreciated it. Helen Slater is great in it. Though it is sloppy in the story department, it does what it sets out to do, entertain children and keeps them rapt.
I now have a 5 year old niece that wants to be Supergirl and I have a secret weapon whenever I have to look after them in the future.
Just thinking that since they're talking about rebooting Superman, how about Supergirl, which really needs a remake? Maybe that'll be on the cards after 2011/2012.
Thread title only edited by MAVERICK
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Mar 26, 2010 13:16:01 GMT -5
helen slater is th ebest thing going for the picture. ( i saw SUPERIRL once and said to myself i was going to marry that girl ) the movie is hard to watch- but part of the mythos, as to a remake... lets see if they get superMAN right first. |
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Legsy
New Member
Alright, alright, alright...
Posts: 15,339
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Post by Legsy on Mar 26, 2010 13:28:36 GMT -5
You did marry a Super Girl, Jor.  |
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Post by boogerdawson on Mar 26, 2010 13:36:02 GMT -5
Can't believe that Maureen Teefy was 31 when she was in Supergirl! No wonder she seemed so cynical.
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