Superman II Donner Cut Budget

[EvilSupes]

ABC and RIC both need to be included in the next boxset release, that's a definite. I don't care if it's not good enough to be in blu-ray/hd picture, if it's just in standard def/DVD resolution that would be good enough. It's the fact that this stuff it "out there" and not included that really frustrates the fans - a bit like Lucas not bothering to provide all the available versions of Star Wars.

When we approach nearer to the new Superman movie, and it's all been confirmed properly and greenlit, we should definitely put a petition up for this stuff - it would be so easy for them to include it in the next Superman releases.

[Scissorpuppy]

If WB wanted to release multiple versions of these films they could.
There may be some red tape but nothing extreme, the biggest hassle was the Brando footage and that eventually worked out. (Even if he had to die for it to happen lol).

I wonder how much of a "mass" market is left for the Superman films on dvd? The 2006 discs may not have contained all the alternate versions but you couldn't ask for more special feature wise. I would say the average Joe doesn't know or care about the extended tv cuts.
This may also be the reason why WB has no interest in re-releasing these versions.

One possibility is the Warner Archives dvdr collection. Since these alternate versions are probably only wanted by fans/film buffs why not put them up for sale on the site? They could make a decent amount of money no doubt. But, even if they did decide to do this they would probably use the Full Screen broadcast tapes

[Scissorpuppy]

Also, with all the deleted scenes included in the STM,S2 dvds and TDC of Superman 2, how much footage is left unreleased?

[EvilSupes]

That's a damn good idea, about WB Archives.

I had a quick look at their website, and they now have Digital Download section:

www.wbshop.com/Digital-Download/sm_ondemand,default,sc.html

How easy would it be for them to upload the unreleased footage for fans to buy and rent digitally?! I mean, they wouldn't even have to worry about the manufacturing costs of putting them out on DVD and losing money if they didn't sell... It's a win-win situation for both us and them, by uploading them to their site in digital format.

Not sure about what unreleased material is still left to include outside of ABC and RIC cuts.

[Scissorpuppy]

Sept 22, 2010 9:26:27 GMT -5 EvilSupes said:

Not sure about what unreleased material is still left to include outside of ABC and RIC cuts.

Yeah, but how much more is in those cuts? I have never seen them myself.

[Jor-L5150]

i agree that the donner SII footage, even the screen-test amalgation should have been a bonus feature, or combined into it's own comprehensive doc.

what i'd like to see/liked to have seen would be a roundtable where a lester sII scene is played with clips from cast/producers the the alternative scene played with more interview clips.
also- a text-track like the SIIRIC where icons indicate who shot what in the theatrical cut.
then someone would cobble a fancut and we'd all be all for it.

personally i am sick of bitching about thau- he had no money, he had a cranky donner and tired/bored mank and an ORDER from WB to make a "donner cut"-
- since that's what we asked for for years! we got what we wanted, but we forgot the movie was never finished and that the bias of donner/salkind would keep it from being story-oriented instead of " my stuff is great, his stuff blows" pissing contest that it became.
i'd have killed to be the one to go through all that footage, work with donner, do all that research... even if everyone hated me for it afterward.

the movie was never finished. it never should have been recut. its what we wanted. thau never had the tools that lester had.

[indo77]

Sept 22, 2010 10:58:46 GMT -5 Scissorpuppy said:

Sept 22, 2010 9:26:27 GMT -5 EvilSupes said:

Not sure about what unreleased material is still left to include outside of ABC and RIC cuts.

Yeah, but how much more is in those cuts? I have never seen them myself.

There are quite a few scenes, some of which did appear in the deleted scenes section of the DVDs. Part of this I copied and pasted from Superman Cinema's Superman II Extra Footage section. These are the scenes only in the TV versions that do not appear from memory in either the theatrical or Donner cut or they appear as an alternate take. This is not a comprehensive list but it is as accurate as I can remember. Some scenes appeared in the European TV cut that never made to ABC (it has 17 mins extra footage as opposed to 24 min in Europe), these have been noted as NOT IN ABC CUT. I am sure I have made lots of mistakes but it's worth a try.

The concorde scene – DONNER FOOTAGE

Additional dialogue between Lois and Clark at the Daily Planet (Orange Juice) LESTER FOOTAGE

The scene with Lex and Otis in the prison laundry may be an alternate extended take. DONNER FOOTAGE

More from the guy from Cheers making a joke about a hair dryer interfering with the moon signal (in reality Zod has killed everyone) - LESTER FOOTAGE

The tail end of Zod & co. on the moon has been expanded as Zod tells Ursa, "You will have everything you want..." , to which Ursa replies, "Men...to kill!" Zod's closing line is "...and I to lead!"
DONNER FOOTAGE

I need to rewatch TDC but there are slight variations of the extended footage during Lex and Otis' prison break DONNER FOOTAGE

Different take of Lex and Miss T in the balloon. Different background plates are used. DONNER FOOTAGE

Lester footage of Japanense tourists taking photographs at Niagra. LESTER FOOTAGE NOT IN ABC CUT

Some guy breaks his camera at Niagra – LESTER FOOTAGE NOT IN ABC CUT

Clark leaves a dollar tip after he buys the hot dogs – LESTER FOOTAGE

The scene of Miss Teschmacher and Lex has been dramatically extended for TV with additional dialogue before and after they enter the fortress. Part of this scene appears in TDC while the rest appears in the deleted scenes section. In the Lester cut we only ever see them inside the fortress. – DONNER FOOTAGE – NOT IN ABC CUT

East Houston
After Non gives the red siren to Zod the deputy sneaks around the back of the car and he runs into Ursa's waist. He then stands up straight and tips his hat to her.LESTER FOOTAGE

In the second East Houston scene, we see more of the villains' destruction of the town, especially Non's participation.LESTER FOOTAGE

The first sequence is of a woman viewing a football game, only to have it interrupted by a newsflash concerning the villians destruction of Houston, Idaho. LESTER FOOTAGE – NOT IN ABC CUT

The second sequence is of a Japanese father and daughter at home. The father is cutting fish:
Father: I am so tired of all this violence on television. You should not watch that.
Daughter: Shut up Dad! LESTER FOOTAGE – NOT IN ABC CUT

After the boy says to Zod "Please Mr General, let my daddy down!" and Zod drops the boy's father, the video version has a reaction shot of the boy, that's it. In the ABC version, there is no reaction shot. Instead, it shows the boy running to a white horse. The boy gets on his horse and rides away, saying "We'll get some help!" Zod is talking to the townspeople about how he is their ruler and says "No one is to leave this town!" Then he sees the boy riding off (very far away). He says quietly "I said 'no one'." Zod looks at Non, who throws the police light (that he ripped off the patrol car earlier) at the horse. There is a whistling sound as the light is thrown (sounds like a missle), then there is an explosion of dust, then silence... the boy and the horse have obviously been killed. A tearful woman screams "He was only a boy!" Ursa grins and says "Who will never become a man." - LESTER FOOTAGE

Souflé scene
Superman is talking to Lois. They appear to be talking about sex. Superman: (nervously) "I've never done this before." Lois: "It's okay. I'm here, everything will be all right."; the scene opens up to reveal:
Superman making a soufflé using his heat vision in the Fortress of Solitude, Lois says "Okay, that's enough." and Superman stops heating the souffle. Lois "Never overcook a soufflé". LESTER FOOTAGE – This appears as a deleted scene in the theatrical DVD

WHITEHOUSE
More scenes have been added to the first White House scene, including:

A sniffling dog trying to find the villains. (appears in TDC cut variation)

A Secret Service agent making a phone call assuring the President's safety ony to be surprised by gunfire.

We get to see Zod using a gun - Different Take from TDC

Zod shoots dead a secret service agent and a picture of Richard Nixon – NOT IN ABC CUT

We also get to see Ursa mince words with the agents protecting the President.
DONNER FOOTAGE

After Lois has told Superman that she has to "change into something a little more comfortable". She is seen in what appears to be a fortress room. We see her reach into her handbag and pull out a silk dress. She is later seen wearing it during the scene that Superman loses his powers. Ever wondered where she got the dress from? LESTER FOOTAGE NOT IN ABC CUT

An ariel shot has been added to the scene where Lois & Clark are travelling on the road after Clark loses his powers. DONNER FOOTAGE NOT IN ABC CUT

An extended shot of Clark travelling by foot to the Fortress after being beat up at the bar. LESTER FOOTAGE

The scene where Luthor enters the White House has been extended with more dialogue from Luthor and Zod (concerning "the son of Jor-El"). DONNER FOOTAGE - ALternate take in TDC

After the Taxi driver says"Man this is going to be good". There is extra dialogue between Jimmy, Perry and Lois.
Jimmy: Is there another camera (remember Non broke the first one)?
Perry: No, but there is a cup of coffee over there.(Like the extended scenes with Zod and Ursa, Jackie Cooper’s voice sounds slightly different)
Lois: Go get him the coffee Jimmy. DONNER FOOTAGE NOT IN ABC CUT

A great moment during the battle scene that wound up in the extended TV edition - here is the dialogue: Superman: "I'm not a coward, Zod". Ursa: "Let him prove it" Zod: "Possibly not" . "It is extremely likely that you are merely a fool... like father, like son. Superman (smiling): "Somehow I just can't hear you, Zod!"LESTER FOOTAGE , EDITED IN TDC

The Kryptonian's announcement of Superman's withdrawl is longer.LESTER/DONNER FOOTAGE (in TDC footage this scene is extended with Donner shot dialogue) e.g "He fled in fear of us" 1977 vs "He fled in fear of us" 1979, Zod is a lot more meaner in the Donner footage. There are many alternate takes between both versions


More great dialogue between Zod and Luthor on the flight to the Fortress: Zod: "I trust you are not wasting my time, Lex Luthor". Luthor: "Of course not, Your Turbulence!". LESTER FOOTAGE (This may have been in TDC?)


They land outside the Fortress of Solitude. Zod comments on Superman's home, whilst Lex hides behind Lois to evade Non.-
As the villains attempt to enter the Fortress, Non is held back by an invisible force field that throws him back to the ground. Which brings up an interesting issue... if Superman, Lois, and Luthor could enter the Fortress, why not the three villains? Great line by Zod - "He is one. We are three. It is the strength of three that will defeat him together." DONNER FOOTAGE - DELETED SCENE IN TDC

When Zod discovers Superman, he calls the Man of Steel "a misbegotten brat". During his "Son of Jor-El will be my slave" speech, he decides Lois Lane will be the first one to "pay for Superman's defiance". - LESTER FOOTAGE

More dialogue after Lois is held hostage.
Zod: We have no more use for this one. Kill him!
Lex: Him?(He is pointing to Superman, but Non points to Lex). Him?(Him being Lex. We see Lex pointing a finger towards himself) - DONNER FOOTAGE EDITED DIFFERENTLY/ALTERNATE TDC

There is a shot of the Arctic police on the outside arresting the villains. It can be found before Lex would have said "...So what do you say. Who would be the wiser...". When Lex exits the Fortress of Solitude to meet with the police, Lex tries to con Superman into laying low as a boxer "How about the Metropolis Masher?" , with Lex as his manager - DONNER FOOTAGE DELETED SCENE IN THE TDC

As Luthor is leaving in cuffs with the Arctic patrol, he is busy negotiating percentages with Superman. Luthor: All I ask is ten percent.... How are you doing?... Eight percent... One more offer, five percent! Arctic Patrol: Let's go. Luthor: No? 3? 2? 1? Superman says Blast off - DONNER FOOTAGE, NOT IN ABC CUT, TDC DELETED SCENE

Flying shot before Superman destroys the fortress is an aerial shot not the same as what appeared in TDC, There is more dialogue between Lois and Superman during the break-up sequence DONNER FOOTAGE DELETED SCENE IN TDC
As Clark Kent leaves the Daily Planet, Jimmy shows off his new camera.- DONNER FOOTAGE DELETED SCENE IN TDC


A jerk cuts in front of Clark to his elevator, he says some mean things to Clark and the elevator doors flatten Clark's hat. Clark gets a look of realization on his face and rushes to a storeroom. This confrontation obviously reminded Clark to get some revenge on that bully in the diner, which immediately follows. - DONNER FOOTAGE DELETED SCENE IN TDC

[Jor-L5150]

ask and ye shall receive!

[Knight]

Excellent topic,interesting.

The first time I seen Thau's cut I'm convinced that they used a v/o for Kidder on the balcony scene,towards the end. I prefare what Lester used for ''there's a scratch on it'' and ''I answer only to the president''.

But what was with Thau's ''I'm not a coward,Zod'' was that Reeve saying ''General'' right before it cuts to ''ever heard of freedom of the press?''

I hate how both de-powering scenes were filmed so differently.

I agree that WB should release all the alternate cuts of SI and II,be it digitally or on disc.

But,on the whole Thau was just doing his job,following orders.

[Kamdan]

I was also going to bring up the issue of Warners releasing it through their Digital Archive, but I would be afraid of it being released in a fullscreen format, a la the Superman III deleted scenes. Maybe it was just that the first films' deleted material in widescreen was more obtainable, but still, that would suck if the extended cuts were only in fullscreen.

Good point at bringing up the fact that some of Margot's lines may have been dubbed. It's more apparent with her "CHIEF!" exclamation and her "You know, Clark..." lines in the Daily Planet.

[joey m]

Well, we know from the donner cut deleted scenes they've got it in widescreen. And they've got all the material to recreate the ABC version in HD if they wanted to. I'm starting to think that was the best version because it's still a finished theatrical movie, but with the best Donner material too. (I haven't seen it in many years though, maybe it's nostalgia talking)

[TylerDurden389]

Just to add onto Indo77's list of differences:

Concord scene is Donner, but the music is repeated Thorne cue, not Williams.

Lex and Otis prison scene, from what i hear, there is a different take in the ABC/RIC than the one used in the Lester cut, AND the Donner cut. Which means we've actually seen 3 different takes of this scene.

Not sure if it's different takes of Lex and Miss T in the balloon. However, in the Lester cut/RIC, we never hear Hackman's voice. It's all the double's dialogue.

When Non throws the siren and kills the boy on the horse, one thing worth noting is that the voice of the woman who says "He was only a boy!!" is different depending on if it's the RIC, or the deleted scene on the dvd. I also noticed on the deleted scene version, they add a snap sound to make it sound like Zod snapped his fingers at Non (ordering him to stop the boy), whereas the RIC version does not have this sound.

The Souffle' scene has the same issue. The music in the RIC for this scene is different than the music in the deleted scene on the dvd. Also, the deleted scene ends after Superman says "Right", but in the RIC we see him grab the pot and stand up as it fades to the dinner scene.

The aerial shot of the car when Clark and Lois are driving you speak of is not in the Donner Cut. In the Donner Cut it fades from the first shot of the car, to them parking.

Stamp's voice and delivery of his "Son of Jor-el will be my slave" speech is different depending on if it's the Lester Cut, or the RIC/ABC cut.

The shot of Lois and Supes landing before he destroys the FOS is different in the DC compared to the RIC/ABC cut. In the DC the camera is more of a medium shot, with the 2 of them to the left of the frame. In the RIC/ABC they are in the middle of the frame, and the camera angle is in front of them, and above them, so when they land, we see their faces before they turn around.

[crazy_asian_man]

the movie was never finished. it never should have been recut. its what we wanted. thau never had the tools that lester had.

I never attacked Thau for the lack of tools- but the damage he'd done to stuff that was ALREADY cut properly by Baird. (i.e. was it REALLY necessary to go back and waste time rescoring/re-editing music into the Moon Attack scene? For what ungodly purpose?)

My minimum expectations were at first: "At least it can't be below what we've been able to see with the IRC cut"

Then it became: "Well, damn, it at least it shouldn't be borderline incoherent through overcutting" compared to the theatrical. ;p

[joey m]

Yeah it was a weird way to spend the money if you have a limited budget. (filming unneeded new body double shots in 35mm? The heck?) MC Hammer spent his money more wisely.

[Jimbo]

There's the bit in the White House attack where there's the Secret Service guy on the phone "no one is going to get in here!" and then a guy gets thrown through the wall. Is that Donner or Lester? That sequence is entirely Donner, and we do see one of the Secret Service guys being thrown through that wall.

That guy's performance just seemed to goofy and over-the-top, so I assume it was a Lester-shot insert.

[TylerDurden389]

Sept 23, 2010 20:53:52 GMT -5 Jimbo said:

There's the bit in the White House attack where there's the Secret Service guy on the phone "no one is going to get in here!" and then a guy gets thrown through the wall. Is that Donner or Lester? That sequence is entirely Donner, and we do see one of the Secret Service guys being thrown through that wall.

That guy's performance just seemed to goofy and over-the-top, so I assume it was a Lester-shot insert.

It's possible Donner did shoot that insert. I'd have to see if there's a hole in the wall in the shot when Zod and Non are approaching the door (Zod still has the gun in hand) and Ursa prepares to kick the guy while he's down. Then again, it is a different shot, so who knows. I do know this though. The shot of the flag falling down through the hole in the roof was shot by Lester. Another thing Thau missed.

[indo77]

Sept 23, 2010 20:53:52 GMT -5 Jimbo said:

There's the bit in the White House attack where there's the Secret Service guy on the phone "no one is going to get in here!" and then a guy gets thrown through the wall. Is that Donner or Lester? That sequence is entirely Donner, and we do see one of the Secret Service guys being thrown through that wall.

That guy's performance just seemed to goofy and over-the-top, so I assume it was a Lester-shot insert.

Yeah we see the guy going through the wall from Non´s angle in TDC but not the secret service agent´s dialogue. Is this not the same guy we see dressed as a general in his office from a deleted scene in STM. His voice has been dubbed in the RIC cut?