Rate "S2 Donner Cut" -4 years later-

[atp]

Please try to rate it.

[heman]

Could of been what every fan hoped for, but Thau Butchered it like everything else superman related he has touched. A 5 year old couldve done better! I cant even start to watch this film.

[Kamdan]

It actually puts me to sleep everytime I watch it. I just wish that Selutron would just do his cut of the film and release it to us, a la Adywan's Star Wars fan edits. I guess he's just in it for the cash...

[crazy_asian_man]

Could of been what every fan hoped for, but Thau Butchered it like everything else superman related he has touched.

I was fine with his bts making of mini-docs...

[crazy_asian_man]

It actually puts me to sleep everytime I watch it. I just wish that Selutron would just do his cut of the film and release it to us, a la Adywan's Star Wars fan edits. I guess he's just in it for the cash...

Would be nice if the Selutron cut was available, but if he's holding out for big cash, the 10 cent fx in the RDC either led me to believe that there's not a whole lot of cash to be had for what WB's willing to invest in a new RDC. (although arguable how much the restoration process cost on a base level)

Though I am appreciative of the clips he put out, the rotoscoping on most of them are incredible.

[Kamdan]

I was fine with his bts making of mini-docs...

It was a tad dickish of him to not even interview Salkind or Spengler and making them look like villains. I'm glad that they were willing to do commentaries and participate in new documentaries, with even more cast and crew members that didn't appear in the first DVD release, just so they could get the record straight.

Would be nice if the Selutron cut was available, but if he's holding out for big cash, the 10 cent fx in the RDC either led me to believe that there's not a whole lot of cash to be had for what WB's willing to invest in a new RDC. (although arguable how much the restoration process cost on a base level)

Though I am appreciative of the clips he put out, the rotoscoping on most of them are incredible.

I wonder what that stuff looks like in high definition. It could come off as distracting, but not as bad as that damn starfield Thau put in the scene where they break out of the Phantom Zone. WHY?!

[crazy_asian_man]

I wonder what that stuff looks like in high definition. It could come off as distracting, but not as bad as that damn starfield Thau put in the scene where they break out of the Phantom Zone. WHY?!

The list of AVOIDABLE gaffes Thau put into the RDC is endless, it's truly sad that the starfield is not the only sin of the RDC choices.

It was a tad dickish of him to not even interview Salkind or Spengler and making them look like villains. I'm glad that they were willing to do commentaries and participate in new documentaries, with even more cast and crew members that didn't appear in the first DVD release, just so they could get the record straight.

Well... I am glad that there's interviews from all sides now, but at the same time, having the "Making of Superman II" come out for decades without even one mention of Donner's name or an attempt to give Donner any real credit in it karmically maybe balances it. (It even edits the attack on the DP sequence such that it makes it seem like Lester directed the whole sequence).

aside: I just received the new Donner book in the mail & details a bit (though I would have been fine with even more details) of the producers/director situation on STM & why there was animosity from very early on.... some good 'fresh' info as well, that I hadn't read elsewhere about STM is in it...

[Kamdan]

Well... I am glad that there's interviews from all sides now, but at the same time, having the "Making of Superman II" come out for decades without even one mention of Donner's name or an attempt to give Donner any real credit in it karmically maybe balances it. (It even edits the attack on the DP sequence such that it makes it seem like Lester directed the whole sequence).

It's even worse when it comes to the moon and White House sequences, as Donner was completely cut out, but you also have to remember that Donner was asked if he wanted to share credit, but he denied it.

[Deleted]

Crap. I'll probably never watch it again.

It's jarring how badly it's done.

[Shane]

watched it once didnt mind it

[joey m]

Still too soon to say for me. IF it's just a stepping stone to something better, it's fine. If the new movie (with all it's home video tie-ins) comes and goes and no other version of Superman II is ever created, then it's a HUGE missed opportunity.

[crazy_asian_man]

"Making of Superman II"..... (It even edits the attack on the DP sequence such that it makes it seem like Lester directed the whole sequence).

It's even worse when it comes to the moon and White House sequences, as Donner was completely cut out, but you also have to remember that Donner was asked if he wanted to share credit, but he denied it.

Lester could have stepped up personally & mentioned Donner's name while talking to the press otherwise.... but that's where I personally get pissed myself. He got the (temporary) boost for his film career off of Donner's work- he went about undermining most of the tone of the film when possible (again, most offensively the Metro battle.... even the Newman' script didn't have all the slapstick put into it initially)--- then let those in the press that gave all the credit to Lester go ahead and do it, minimalizing (as much as possible) Donner's contribution.

In looking back, it is a pity that Reeve didn't dig his heels in and make a stand for Donner to grind it to a halt unless he were rehired- but if I were 25 years old & had my first big film opportunity given to me by the Salkinds & was told that the director of "The Three Musketeers" was also going to take it over--- He originally saw Superman as a great opportunity as an actor, not the entire career. I'm sure I wouldn't want to burn the very first producers to give him his big break by confronting them & get a reputation immediately for being difficult before a career even started.

Still.... it's true that Donner was offered credit & turned it down, but given the size of the disappointment of not being pursued to complete it.... (the Book makes a good point: if you could afford to fly five airplanes over Cannes every year with a banner for a Superman movie, you could find a way to reach Donner if he's not answering his phone).... I'd probably be so angry that I wouldn't want my name attached at the moment either.

But--- the editors of the documentary could have easily done it another way. Looking at it & knowing what we know, it's edited in poor taste. (But it's also great & hilarious that history isn't re-edited & this documentary is put side by side in the box set with the whole story of who directed the best sequences in SII).

[The Phantom Menace]

I've said this elsewhere, I believe: I'm more inclined to watch individual scenes (the Brando scenes, Final confrontation in the Fortress, even Lois throwing herself out the window, despite the obvious stand in for Chris Reeve in those shots of him looking out the window) rather than try to view the whole thing as a polished movie.

[Kamdan]

Isn't that why they only had Sarah Douglas going to all of the premieres was because she was the only one netual about the Lester-Donner situation? I guess the Salkinds felt that Donner's comments hurt their reputation and they didn't want that all over Superman II, but they did get it, in small doses.

Looking into context, I do not hold Lester in the same high disregard as I used to. I think he brought some much needed "romance" into the film. I never understood why Superman would want to fly Lois to the Fortress after tricking him into revealing his identity. It was just too, "Ha-ha! I tricked you and now I'm going to write the story of the century!" Donner got the attraction process down in the first film, but the "love affair" just seemed too rushed and it was only there just so Lois could have a part in the second film.

I try to keep viewing The Donner Cut as a deleted scenes portion of the DVD extras, but it is difficult when TV and movie stations are airing it instead of Lester's film.

[monkeymagic]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0M7-r21Wik

If this has been posted before then please excuse me. But I discovered this clip on YouTube and IMO it's quite a nice dedication to the 'reveal scene' in the Donner Cut.

[The Phantom Menace]

Oct 10, 2010 14:37:44 GMT -5 monkeymagic said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0M7-r21Wik

If this has been posted before then please excuse me. But I discovered this clip on YouTube and IMO it's quite a nice dedication to the 'reveal scene' in the Donner Cut.

How sad is it that those credits look better than the one's in the actual Donner Cut?

[TylerDurden389]

Oct 10, 2010 14:02:15 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I never understood why Superman would want to fly Lois to the Fortress after tricking him into revealing his identity. It was just too, "Ha-ha! I tricked you and now I'm going to write the story of the century!" Donner got the attraction process down in the first film, but the "love affair" just seemed too rushed and it was only there just so Lois could have a part in the second film.

Come on dude. The whole "Superman turns back time to save Lois because he loves her" was added in to the end of S1 towards the end of filming. The screen-test was filmed probably a year earlier. I have no doubt that had Donner finished, he would've done a MUCH better job on the romance scenes during the 2nd act. Lord knows we would've gotten much better dialogue than "But...he is you. It's kinda confusing", and "I'm gonna change into something more comfortable". Way to really make the dialogue completely "On the nose", aye Lester? He may as well have had her say "We're going to have sex now." Not only that, but having Superman simply refer to the green crystal as an inanimate object when talking about his past simply dumbs down the whole magic to it. Even in the context of Lester's cut, that crystal is the very thing that gives him his powers back.

To me, this dialogue really comes off as downplaying the magic that the first films gives us (not to mention all Supes' stuttering in this scene makes him seem much less "Superman-ish", and actually more like Clark). At the very least, Donner would've had Lois act like she's in love with Superman during these scenes, and not weirded out by him when he explains his past.

[Kamdan]

Oct 10, 2010 14:37:44 GMT -5 monkeymagic said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0M7-r21Wik

If this has been posted before then please excuse me. But I discovered this clip on YouTube and IMO it's quite a nice dedication to the 'reveal scene' in the Donner Cut.

VERY good, but still, my problem with it resides in the writing. There needs to be a better "button" for the end of the scene. Clark looks plenty pissed at Lois for that trick and there's no sense of attraction between them. Maybe a hybrid of both scenes would make the love between the characters shine through. Like having Lois apologize to him, realizing how embarassing this situation is for him and following it as the scene plays out in Lester's. "Maybe you didn't want to with your mind, but maybe you wanted to with your heart."

Come on dude. The whole "Superman turns back time to save Lois because he loves her" was added in to the end of S1 towards the end of filming. The screen-test was filmed probably a year earlier. I have no doubt that had Donner finished, he would've done a MUCH better job on the romance scenes during the 2nd act. Lord knows we would've gotten much better dialogue than "But...he is you. It's kinda confusing", and "I'm gonna change into something more comfortable". Way to really make the dialogue completely "On the nose", aye Lester? He may as well have had her say "We're going to have sex now." Not only that, but having Superman simply refer to the green crystal as an inanimate object when talking about his past simply dumbs down the whole magic to it. Even in the context of Lester's cut, that crystal is the very thing that gives him his powers back.

To me, this dialogue really comes off as downplaying the magic that the first films gives us (not to mention all Supes' stuttering in this scene makes him seem much less "Superman-ish", and actually more like Clark). At the very least, Donner would've had Lois act like she's in love with Superman during these scenes, and not weirded out by him when he explains his past.

Oh, I don't deny that Donner would have done a better job back then, I'm just judging off of what we got and it doesn't appear that Donner and Mankiewicz express any concern about doing the scene different in their commentary. Maybe if Thau would have thrown in an edition of Superman: The Movie "as it was originally intended," maybe this would all fit better, but that would be blasphemous, wouldn't it?

I'm not quite sure where this beef with the crystal is coming from. I thought it was more clever to spare the crystal from destruction in Lester's cut, than it simply not being destroyed in Donner's cut. It just seemed too convenient that the crystal wasn't destroyed. I think Lois' reaction to Superman during those scenes is the natural reaction lovers have when they talk about their past and all. Are you really 100% there when that happens? Superman's "stuttering" gave me a better sense of him being with a girl he loves than whatever appeared in Donner's cut. When he says, "I love her" in Donner's cut, it sounds like he's treating Lois as a possession, rather than having genuine feelings of love for her, as it was in Lester's cut.

Also, did anyone notice Donner genuinely laughing, not in jest, at material Lester shot?

[crazy_asian_man]

Oh, I don't deny that Donner would have done a better job back then, I'm just judging off of what we got and it doesn't appear that Donner and Mankiewicz express any concern about doing the scene different in their commentary. Maybe if Thau would have thrown in an edition of Superman: The Movie "as it was originally intended," maybe this would all fit better, but that would be blasphemous, wouldn't it?

I'm not quite sure where this beef with the crystal is coming from. I thought it was more clever to spare the crystal from destruction in Lester's cut, than it simply not being destroyed in Donner's cut. It just seemed too convenient that the crystal wasn't destroyed.

I agree with both of you. The beauty I thought of Donner's direction of STM was how much was suggested in the performances throughout beyond what was on the page. ("Pink?")

As Tyler mentions, the flatness of Lester's direction was to have everything 'on the nose' from the script rewrite on. Even McClure stated that with Donner, things were discovered to play in the script, whereas with Lester, things were just laid out from point 'a' to 'b'.

The Donner/Mankiewicz commentary is kind of a joke- Was SO looking forward to more insight. Mank remembers better, but it should have been FILLED with information on what it could have/should have been, but the love of the project must have been incredibly muted- understandably after the 'divorce period' when Donner got axed.

In looking at the script, the romance IS awkward, but makes some sense.

The tone really seems to emphasize Lois/Supes NOT knowing each other for so long, and the FOS scenes as if it's a second date...not a couple who'd seen each other for quite awhile (as in the LC version) with their first kiss there & a pretty mature suggestion (though subtle) that the romance at the FOS is between two people who are incredibly infatuated with each other but really don't know each other too well, but that's kind of shoved to the side.

Lois seems far more fun- and reckless - in Mank's version of the script... and less bitchy, for lack of a better word.

In the Lester version, it's far less romantic and a bit awkward, truth to tell.

In the screen tests and the missing scenes, I totally agree that it looks like there's a missing sense of romance.....but if you've seen Donner's "Ladyhawke" or "Inside Moves"*--- Donner is NOT a slouch in delivering those scenes and making the audience fall in love with the characters as well..... (*These two films have great love stories in it that are very touching, but never explicit even though incredibly romantic in tone, sure he would have added the same magic to SII scenes, had he the chance) but you'd never know it from seeing the RDC or listening to the commentary alone.

*sigh*

[Kamdan]

Yeah, it certainly does suck that we didn't even get to see any of Donner's date at the Fortress of Solitude scenes. Were they even shot at all? I thought that all of the Fortress stuff was shot by Donner, because they had to take it down for more space.

[crazy_asian_man]

Yeah, it certainly does suck that we didn't even get to see any of Donner's date at the Fortress of Solitude scenes. Were they even shot at all? I thought that all of the Fortress stuff was shot by Donner, because they had to take it down for more space.

Those scenes I was SO looking forward to seeing in the RDC, assuming that they were shot- but it sure looked like (based on what ended up being in the RDC) that almost NONE of the Lois/Supes FOS 'date' scenes were shot. (*Even more mystifying....the whole thing with the 'missing' closeup shots of Lois in Supes' costume. We see photos on Capedwonder of Margot in the costume, even turning away for the explosions. So, why didn't they just get these quickly early on? Bizzare.)

We know that the Brando/Hackman scenes had top priority to get shot, with the contractual end dates for them.... but it certainly is odd that they didn't knock these (what would seem simple productionwise) scenes out (or even the closeups) & as the consequence of not was having to reconstruct much of it later on.

Hrmm........ how great would it be to be able to KNOW solidly what was & wasn't shot (and be able to see it) one day?

[TylerDurden389]

Oct 11, 2010 1:41:28 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Hrmm........ how great would it be to be able to KNOW solidly what was & wasn't shot (and be able to see it) one day?

I was actually kinda hoping this book you keep mentioning would have this outline/shooting schedule. Guss not. I only recently found out from watching the "Making of" videos that they've been releasing over at "bizarroworld" that the reason the FOS set was destroyed was because they used it in the "Destruction of Krypton" sequence, and thus were unable to shoot anything else.

Ugh, the differences in architecture between Donner's FOS and Lester's is so different that it's almost painful for me to look at. Sometimes I think that certain parts of the sets were added digitally just for continuity's sake because it looks like certain parts change location. For example, in the DC de-powering, the shots of Lois standing in Supes' shirt, watching Supes talk to Jor-el. I cant' help but notice the outline of the edges of the right side of the platform she's standing on looks like it was rotoscoped in.

[crazy_asian_man]

I was actually kinda hoping this book you keep mentioning would have this outline/shooting schedule. Guss not. I only recently found out from watching the "Making of" videos that they've been releasing over at "bizarroworld" that the reason the FOS set was destroyed was because they used it in the "Destruction of Krypton" sequence, and thus were unable to shoot anything else.

Ugh, the differences in architecture between Donner's FOS and Lester's is so different that it's almost painful for me to look at. Sometimes I think that certain parts of the sets were added digitally just for continuity's sake because it looks like certain parts change location. For example, in the DC de-powering, the shots of Lois standing in Supes' shirt, watching Supes talk to Jor-el. I cant' help but notice the outline of the edges of the right side of the platform she's standing on looks like it was rotoscoped in.

The architecture between scenes in the RDC change all the time even when it's Donner footage for background plates! So it's pretty terrible, I agree. Like many other places, it's a spot where Thau took a bad situation and suprisingly made it even worse.

I know that there are matte paintings that were there originally- but Lois definitely looked like she was composited in on the edges.... thus, making a 'fresh' composite not so terrible. I wonder if that was the idea all along? If so, it's a truly odd choice for that time, given how shaky and difficult compositing seemed to be.

As far as why they deliberately made the architecture different- I assume it was (1) to prep the battle scene that got added at the end- but also (2) it was interesting to hear that the studio they originally had wasn't available & so they HAD to alter it regardless because the dimensions were different. Hmp.

To give Lester a little bit of credit for a couple of his decisions, though, for ONE viewing, I have to admit that the LC moved fast enough that you didn't (for the most part) pay attention to too many of the inconsistencies between the Donner/Lester stuff on a first viewing. (though I admit on the very first view noticing an odd discrepancy when Supes looks around and says "This is a very special place to me" and looks around at the Donner pov of the fortress).

[ye5man]

Donner himself said that Supes 'looks like he's about to throw up' after she tricks him - which is not exactly an ideal springboard for a romance in which he gives up his powers.

Give me the pink bear any day of the week.

[stargazer01]

I can't vote. I don't consider this a proper film, more like images of what could have been. I like some of the stuff but I HATE some of it too.

Overall, I enjoy the theatrical version. It is what it is.