Rate "S2 Donner Cut" -4 years later-

[Jimbo]

Oct 11, 2010 15:37:22 GMT -5 @stargazer01 said:

I can't vote. I don't consider this a proper film, more like images of what could have been. I like some of the stuff but I HATE some of it too.

Overall, I enjoy the theatrical version. It is what it is.

I'm in the same boat.

For what it is, Lester's movie tried to be a companion piece to STM, and for the most part, it succeeded. It also felt neutral to the behind-the-scenes troubles. Hackman and Brando bailing could not be helped as far as the director and editor were concerned, and they worked around those obstacles the best they could.

Donner's cut feels extremely biased and spiteful and there's no effort to make a polished film. Cutting Lester footage just because it was shot by Lester was a mistake, not to mention cutting Donner's own footage. I thought we were going to get the ABC cut + Brando - slapstick. How many minutes of Donner footage was left on the cutting room floor? 15 minutes? Maybe more. Then they include SOME, but not all, of the scenes in horrible condition as a bonus feature. It makes me think that Donner didn't even care. He just wanted his name on the movie, and not Lester, and all the stuff in between didn't matter.

As it is, the best Superman II will always be in between the two official cuts. My money is still on the ABC cut. It's good enough that I can forget about having Brando in the movie.

[crazy_asian_man]

Cutting Lester footage just because it was shot by Lester was a mistake, not to mention cutting Donner's own footage. I thought we were going to get the ABC cut + Brando - slapstick. How many minutes of Donner footage was left on the cutting room floor? 15 minutes? Maybe more. Then they include SOME, but not all, of the scenes in horrible condition as a bonus feature. It makes me think that Donner didn't even care. He just wanted his name on the movie, and not Lester, and all the stuff in between didn't matter.

Well said. In reading the Donner biography, one gets the sense that the good/bad about Donner is wearing his heart on his sleeve.

Though- to their defense, in trying to 'fix' the cut to be more in line w/what I think Donner might have done, I have nothing but frustration at the lack of enough serious footage...... I can only imagine what Donner must have felt! He might have thrown his hands up at a certain point and just said, "oh F** it, just make it move fast!"---- but at the least, Thau or Mank should have made it feel more like a complete film.

Was it giving up on available resources and refusing to bend?
Very possibly. As you said Jimbo, the best cut is so far probably the IRC.

The formula for doing a cut does sound good though:
ABC version + Brando - camp. *sigh*

[crazy_asian_man]

Donner himself said that Supes 'looks like he's about to throw up' after she tricks him - which is not exactly an ideal springboard for a romance in which he gives up his powers.

The performance in the screen tests Donner seem pretty happy with- but it's just the first piece of the puzzle Donner/Mank was assembling , it seemed, for their romance. (Whereas in the LC, it was the 'big reveal' of their mutual love)

In the script, it almost suggests that Superman views Lois as an impulsive child that just doesn't give up. Even in the Honeymoon Haven scenes in the script- LOIS is the dizzy optimist for the assignment (also offering what could have been a HILARIOUS moment with these actors- Lois DARES Clark to kiss her- he does, with disastrous results), rather than CLARK.

The romance is different in tone & how it plays out.

Lester's version plays out like Lois is a bitter character who finally gets what she wants (Why Superman falls for her, who knows?)....

Donner's scripted version plays out like Lois is such an impulsive (but generally positive) gutsy ditz on the surface..... that it reads as if the audience would have had FUN with her taking charge of Superman before the tragedy set in. (In the Mank script, she's NOT 'ok' with Superman relinquishing his powers, but is in tears! Pity they didn't shoot her closeups....*sigh*)

So, there was romance in both versions- but in Donner/Mank's, Lois would have been far more likeable.

[Knight]

Between both cuts is an excellent Superman sequel. I can't watch either of them alone,always option for fan cuts. I know we've discussed the budget and Thau was basically a hired hand to collaborate with Donner. But, I still can't help but feel we have still been cheated. They had an excellent opportunity to cut the two together and give us a film we would call a good sequel.

Some of the choices Lester used we're pretty bad,as we know. Same for Donner,I don't understand why they had to have so much toilet humour,I mean come on.

I have never seen any extended/alt TV cuts of II,what have ya',but from what I have read there still was plenty for Thau to include but didn't. I don't understand.

As always,we will have to wait and see what WB decide to do in regards to promote Snyderman,sigh!

[Jimbo]

Oct 11, 2010 17:57:27 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Was it giving up on available resources and refusing to bend?
Very possibly. As you said Jimbo, the best cut is so far probably the IRC.

Nah. The RIC is too bloated. Stuff like the photographer putting film in his camera for 30 seconds, the cutaways to the Japanese and redneck families and the reuse of footage from the flying sequence from STM should not have been there.

The formula for doing a cut does sound good though:
ABC version + Brando - camp. *sigh*

That's what I tried to do in the my cut.

[crazy_asian_man]

Nah. The RIC is too bloated. Stuff like the photographer putting film in his camera for 30 seconds, the cutaways to the Japanese and redneck families and the reuse of footage from the flying sequence from STM should not have been there.

Well... what I meant was- out of the 'professional' cuts*, the RIC is the best of the bunch, but of course there's still a lot of excess Lester crap in it.

(*But then again- we're talking about only three choices: Theatrical, Donner/Thau cut, and the IRC.)

The fan cuts are another story- and they keep on getting better and better (For the most part)!

[ye5man]

the cutaways to the Japanese

"Shut up, Dad!" ;D ;D


I d/loaded the Donner cut over the weekend and skimmed through it. I hate it. The moment where Superman returns to confront Zod was cut out? I don't remember that. Why was the blood on his face so fresh (and luminous) when he returns to the fortress? Music cuts are awful. Turning back time and sorting out Rocky, who wouldn't remember him, makes no sense. 7 1/2 min intro before the main credits? This is a DVD release not a 1980 theatrical.

Should have just been music less individual deleted scenes.

A+ for thought, thanks for taking the time and for the release

D for the product.

and yes, "Spite" is the word I'd use. Cutting out Lester's stuff for the sake of it is a much larger trangression than what happened in 1980 IMO. Superman 2 theatrical is head and shoulders above this disjointed mess.

[Gandy]

I like watching it as one huge deleted scene. I just enjoy it for what it is. I'm glad it was released, but I'd have advised the studio to release it as deleted scenes and perhaps have a round-table discussion with Donner, Mankiewicz, Spengler and Salkind.

[crazy_asian_man]

I like watching it as one huge deleted scene. I just enjoy it for what it is. I'm glad it was released, but I'd have advised the studio to release it as deleted scenes and perhaps have a round-table discussion with Donner, Mankiewicz, Spengler and Salkind.

It's a good point- I mentioned before that I would have loved for them to take the 'Metropolis' (the actual movie) restoration approach years ago---since it pretty much reads like a workprint rather than an actual film & when (at the time) the footage wasn't available, actually put IN photos/storyboards & put captions on the scenes on how it really was supposed to be.

It's a pity that Mank (when he had the opportunity) didn't really share what he would have done for a new ending, besides turning back time. Either the memory kiss (as was I believe suggested by Chris) or just have Lois remember.... or (ugh) amnesia. (Well, I guess the memory kiss is just as bad).

In the Lester script, Supes uses a new power & uses his heat vision on water that he gives to Lois. (?) At least the kiss is more graceful.

As far as a round table discussion, I can't see that being civil. I think a boxing ring might have been more appropriate or a wrestling mat for Donner/Spengler/Mank/Salkind. Then they could have really hashed out their differences, and THEN spill the beans on what went on.

[eccentricbeing]

I'm watching this right now as I'm typing and oh my GOD! The editing is so BAD!!!! The music editing is so BAD! I can't watch this.

[crazy_asian_man]

Should have just been music less individual deleted scenes.

A+ for thought, thanks for taking the time and for the release

D for the product.

True.
The recycled music edits really disrupted enjoying many of the scenes. It was like going to a movie theatre with someone blasting their music at the wrong moments---

A+ for the thought & finally releasing it, but...

D- for what came out. At the very least, not destroying/altering what was already supposed to be there. The bouncing Jor-el head, the trimmed IRC sequences that look like they were already edited by Baird to begin with (i.e. balcony scene, outside the FOS)- other spots to be edited further and (arguably) replacing actors with voice doubles, and effects so horrible that they don't even stack up to fx that can be done with home softwware.

God, we need a polished better edit..... even if there's not one frame of new footage, at least clean up the deleted scenes, restore the trimmed dialogue (there's so little Donner, why cut it down further Thau?), & remove the horrible bouncing head with what was supposed to be there from STM..... geez. Is that so much to ask?

*sigh*

[Valentine Smith]

I really wish this could be what I want it to be. And what I want it to be is my preferred version of Superman 2. But it's not. I can barely stomach the theatrical either.

But yeah, looking at this as just the coolest extra features disc ever to the theatrical S2 is the best I can do to soften the blow.

[lois]

I can see the vision that Donner had for the Superman film. I prefer this version over the Lester Superman 2 film released in theaters. The ending where Superman turns back time and Zod, Ursa and Non are back in the phantom zone..very well done! I do agree that the scene with Rocky at the end should have been left out of the Donner cut.

I actually like both films. Each one has stuff that I like.

I was also watching the features on how the Richard Donner cut was put together. It took a lot of time and effort. I didn't notice any poor sound effects or quality when watching this film. I've watched it many, many times and always really enjoyed it.

[atp]

Disappointing trash

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2022 15:16:26 GMT -5 atp said:

Disappointing trash

I agree it was incredibly disappointing, but still glad to be able to see some of the bits never was able to see before.... but still would be nice to have more one day.... (though probably unlikely).