Bryan Singer's The Man of Steel Storyline

[lois]

Jan 8, 2011 21:03:43 GMT -5 belloq said:

sure, but then Disney would sue yer ass

LOL ;D

Superman : The Legend Continues... how's that sound?

[belloq]

that one's probably public domain, so i think you're okay with that one ;D

[atp]

MoS was crap

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 4, 2022 14:22:36 GMT -5 atp said:

MoS was crap

A lot of it really is. There's stuff I thought felt fresh, but the bad outweighed the good- by a lot. But, I still wonder if a fan cut could salveage it as something entirely different.

[dejan]

Jul 8, 2022 23:48:31 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 4, 2022 14:22:36 GMT -5 atp said:

MoS was crap

A lot of it really is. There's stuff I thought felt fresh, but the bad outweighed the good- by a lot. But, I still wonder if a fan cut could salveage it as something entirely different.

Watched MoS and BvS as a double bill last night on my home theater system, having not seen either for a while.

At the end of the day I personally just don't find the characters engaging or likeable.
That's something I could level at pretty much all of Snyder flicks(again IMHO).

And no amount of great visuals(not that they really are that good IMHO) or well choreographed fight scenes are gonna save them.

[atp]

MoS looks like a videogame, not a film

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 9, 2022 15:48:07 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 8, 2022 23:48:31 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

A lot of it really is. There's stuff I thought felt fresh, but the bad outweighed the good- by a lot. But, I still wonder if a fan cut could salveage it as something entirely different.

Watched MoS and BvS as a double bill last night on my home theater system, having not seen either for a while.

At the end of the day I personally just don't find the characters engaging or likeable.
That's something I could level at pretty much all of Snyder flicks(again IMHO).

And no amount of great visuals(not that they really are that good IMHO) or well choreographed fight scenes are gonna save them.

Not as a 'real' film, perhaps, but personally I enjoy films on different levels- particularly if it's a comic book adaptation.

If a fan film had great cosplay set to music and a nice action scene and was short, I could enjoy it and get a kick out of it- not as a 'real' film, but as cosplay fan film.... which the Snyder cut JL film is to me, in ways.

I admit if it weren't taking characters and comics I grew up with, I'd have zero interest. So, that's my view on it. I have no illusions that many of his works would work given how the story and drama scenes play out. Watchmen is beautiful eye candy that I can view while cleaning the house, but I doubt I could sit there and give it my full attention like I would a 'real' film.

[dejan]

Jul 9, 2022 16:06:40 GMT -5 atp said:

MoS looks like a videogame, not a film

hehe

Go tell that to Mr Goyer!:



@1:08 in the words of Goyer:
"Our goal was to do a more realistic Superman- a Superman that exists in a real world"

You call this real?..........Goyer:




This is how I define "real":

[dejan]

Jul 10, 2022 2:15:42 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 9, 2022 15:48:07 GMT -5 dejan said:

Watched MoS and BvS as a double bill last night on my home theater system, having not seen either for a while.

At the end of the day I personally just don't find the characters engaging or likeable.
That's something I could level at pretty much all of Snyder flicks(again IMHO).

And no amount of great visuals(not that they really are that good IMHO) or well choreographed fight scenes are gonna save them.

Not as a 'real' film, perhaps, but personally I enjoy films on different levels- particularly if it's a comic book adaptation.

If a fan film had great cosplay set to music and a nice action scene and was short, I could enjoy it and get a kick out of it- not as a 'real' film, but as cosplay fan film.... which the Snyder cut JL film is to me, in ways.

I admit if it weren't taking characters and comics I grew up with, I'd have zero interest. So, that's my view on it. I have no illusions that many of his works would work given how the story and drama scenes play out. Watchmen is beautiful eye candy that I can view while cleaning the house, but I doubt I could sit there and give it my full attention like I would a 'real' film.

I get your point-I actually can also have that attitude when watching stuff like 300 or Watchmen.

Funny thing is the night after watching MoS and BvS , I ended up watching a 1963 film called Charade(with Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn).
This was just by random chance and of course, Charade is not a comic book film(even if, under Stanley Donnen's direction, it combines drama,romance,comedy, intrigue and even moderate horror/violence with adept skill).



But the thing that hit me almost instantly(after nearly 5 hours of Snyderisms the previous evening) was just the difference between actors who make you care about their characters and directors who make you care about their stories.
As opposed to actors who make you care about how they look rather than how they act.......... and directors who make you care more about their visuals than their storytelling.

Of course it doesn't help that poor ol' Cavill is definitely no Cary Grant.......and Amy Adams , whilst being an actress with considerable talent...... is still no Audrey Hepburn.

[Kamdan]

Jul 13, 2022 10:45:56 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 9, 2022 16:06:40 GMT -5 atp said:

MoS looks like a videogame, not a film

You call this real?..........Goyer:




This is how I define "real":

There’s no way in heck they would do what they did back then now. It’s staggering to think about Reeve being hung up by a wire on location and nothing below him if the wires were to break. It would also be too expensive to do a Zoptic type of setup due to the severe strain it puts on the actors to be placed in that position. That was a common complaint about how the flying scenes were shot and modern safety factors have to be accounted for in regard to these criticisms.

[dejan]

Kamdan wrote:

There’s no way in heck they would do what they did back then now. It’s staggering to think about Reeve being hung up by a wire on location and nothing below him if the wires were to break. It would also be too expensive to do a Zoptic type of setup due to the severe strain it puts on the actors to be placed in that position. That was a common complaint about how the flying scenes were shot and modern safety factors have to be accounted for in regard to these criticisms.

 
 Absolutely!

I think at the time though, it was just considered normal in terms of how the cast and crew reacted to and confronted certain situations/problems.
Even Kidder ended up being buried under a bucket load of soil and clay pellets(aswell as being inside a hydraulic compressor used for crushing the car) for the earthquake climax.
When Petrou interviewed her for the making of book, she was still spitting out dirt from the day's shooting!(page 190).

But that sense of tangible , physical reality is what is missing in The Snyderfest(AKA Mos and BvS) and quite frankly modern fantasy films in general.
I also have a fairly big home theater screen.......so gimmicky CGI(The World Engine ect ect) just does not hold water(no pun intended) on my set up(JVC NX9 Pseudo 8K projector ).

I also watched 76's Logan's Run recently and sure the camera pans are slow, as they survey the miniatures......but they are still real miniatures!......and your perception comprehends that sense of physical reality(mine does anyways lol).

I will take that, than some fast moving World Engine tentacle that looks like an elaborate cartoon......or as ATP said.....a s****y video game!

[Metallo]

Jul 13, 2022 14:02:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

Kamdan wrote:

There’s no way in heck they would do what they did back then now. It’s staggering to think about Reeve being hung up by a wire on location and nothing below him if the wires were to break. It would also be too expensive to do a Zoptic type of setup due to the severe strain it puts on the actors to be placed in that position. That was a common complaint about how the flying scenes were shot and modern safety factors have to be accounted for in regard to these criticisms.

 
 Absolutely!

I think at the time though, it was just considered normal in terms of how the cast and crew reacted to and confronted certain situations/problems.
Even Kidder ended up being buried under a bucket load of soil and clay pellets(aswell as being inside a hydraulic compressor used for crushing the car) for the earthquake climax.
When Petrou interviewed her for the making of book, she was still spitting out dirt from the day's shooting!(page 190).

But that sense of tangible , physical reality is what is missing in The Snyderfest(AKA Mos and BvS) and quite frankly modern fantasy films in general.
I also have a fairly big home theater screen.......so gimmicky CGI(The World Engine ect ect) just does not hold water(no pun intended) on my set up(JVC NX9 Pseudo 8K projector ).

I also watched 76's Logan's Run recently and sure the camera pans are slow, as they survey the miniatures......but they are still real miniatures!......and your perception comprehends that sense of physical reality(mine does anyways lol).

I will take that, than some fast moving World Engine tentacle that looks like an elaborate cartoon......or as ATP said.....a s****y video game!

I get what Goyer was saying but they failed at even their goal. MoS and BVS lack real world consequences. They wanted all the emotional angst and darkness but none of the actual logic or responsibilities that come with a “real world” story. Snyder couldn’t be consistent so he raised certain issues then completely forgot about them. His films lack heart, common sense, and any real emotional depth or stakes.

[atp]

I hate CGI in Superman movies.

The only exception is CGI villains.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 13, 2022 14:02:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

Kamdan wrote:

There’s no way in heck they would do what they did back then now. It’s staggering to think about Reeve being hung up by a wire on location and nothing below him if the wires were to break. It would also be too expensive to do a Zoptic type of setup due to the severe strain it puts on the actors to be placed in that position. That was a common complaint about how the flying scenes were shot and modern safety factors have to be accounted for in regard to these criticisms.

 
 Absolutely!

I think at the time though, it was just considered normal in terms of how the cast and crew reacted to and confronted certain situations/problems.
Even Kidder ended up being buried under a bucket load of soil and clay pellets(aswell as being inside a hydraulic compressor used for crushing the car) for the earthquake climax.
When Petrou interviewed her for the making of book, she was still spitting out dirt from the day's shooting!(page 190).

But that sense of tangible , physical reality is what is missing in The Snyderfest(AKA Mos and BvS) and quite frankly modern fantasy films in general.
I also have a fairly big home theater screen.......so gimmicky CGI(The World Engine ect ect) just does not hold water(no pun intended) on my set up(JVC NX9 Pseudo 8K projector ).

I also watched 76's Logan's Run recently and sure the camera pans are slow, as they survey the miniatures......but they are still real miniatures!......and your perception comprehends that sense of physical reality(mine does anyways lol).

I will take that, than some fast moving World Engine tentacle that looks like an elaborate cartoon......or as ATP said.....a s****y video game!

I remember even Donner-who seemed to have a heart of gold... mentioning being extremely grateful that wires didn't break on some of the stunts he shot in STM---- and one stuntman I think was killed on STM-

Can you imagine the horror if one of the leads died or was paralyzed- directly from the film?

While I'm glad Alex Proyas is still directing from his amazing talent- I can't imagine how he feels (or anyone more recently on the Alec Baldwin films)- after what happened on the Crow with poor Brandon Lee (or the actor who held the gun that shot him!)....

While the tragedy with Reeve's horse was horrific- I honestly would have a REALLY difficult time watching a Superman film if any of it had related to wirework with the practical effects.

Even with the advancements, apparently it still causes a lot of issues with actors backs- at least reportedly it did with Tobey Maguire.... with all the wirework in Marvel films, maybe its improved to a point where there's little to no damage? (I shrug because I don't know).

But as a bizzare sidebar---

With all the CGI-
Apparently it's causing health problems with fx artists who are overworked by impossible demands!

I can kind of see it- years ago I went to school for sfx and- while its much easier today- 3d modeling when I was working with it would give me endless migraines. It was like those old kids books where you'd connect the dots to make something.... only YOU'RE the one manipulating 3d space in 2d views, and if you got one dot wrong, it would be screwed up. It might have been fun later (rotoscoping also no fun but not nearly as headache inducing).

But here's the John Campea short video discussing the basic problems in Hollywood with CGI artists going nuts and not wanting to work for Marvel:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBkZCwarLYc

Maybe Hollywood can go back to OLD methods and focus more on a great story where not so many shots are needed and/or necessary to get engaged? I know I saw an old Hitchcock film for the first time, "North by Northwest"- and the fx (though fine by that era) at the end were horrible- but I was SOOOO into the story by the end, that I was still biting nails because the movie had captivated me that much.

From Marvel tv shows to the $200 million dollar movie- to me, it's ALL story, but if Hwood were more careful and allocated more time to certain shots/fx- practical or not- it maybe could be safer, look better, and if there were less shots demanded for the time and the story, it could pop out more and be a reality. (Maybe)

[dejan]

Metallo wrote:

I get what Goyer was saying but they failed at even their goal. MoS and BVS lack real world consequences. They wanted all the emotional angst and darkness but none of the actual logic or responsibilities that come with a “real world” story. Snyder couldn’t be consistent so he raised certain issues then completely forgot about them. His films lack heart, common sense, and any real emotional depth or stakes

Could not agree more.

To be fair I was being a bit tongue in cheek with Goyer in my previous post.

Having said that if you goto approx 3:00 in the making of MoS video......
 
Deborah Snyder says:
"We wanted to have real places and not have Supes crash into fictitious locations. We wanted everything to feel as real as possible".

Good job!................lol!:


 

[Metallo]

Jul 13, 2022 16:17:30 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 13, 2022 14:02:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

Kamdan wrote:

 
 Absolutely!

I think at the time though, it was just considered normal in terms of how the cast and crew reacted to and confronted certain situations/problems.
Even Kidder ended up being buried under a bucket load of soil and clay pellets(aswell as being inside a hydraulic compressor used for crushing the car) for the earthquake climax.
When Petrou interviewed her for the making of book, she was still spitting out dirt from the day's shooting!(page 190).

But that sense of tangible , physical reality is what is missing in The Snyderfest(AKA Mos and BvS) and quite frankly modern fantasy films in general.
I also have a fairly big home theater screen.......so gimmicky CGI(The World Engine ect ect) just does not hold water(no pun intended) on my set up(JVC NX9 Pseudo 8K projector ).

I also watched 76's Logan's Run recently and sure the camera pans are slow, as they survey the miniatures......but they are still real miniatures!......and your perception comprehends that sense of physical reality(mine does anyways lol).

I will take that, than some fast moving World Engine tentacle that looks like an elaborate cartoon......or as ATP said.....a s****y video game!

I remember even Donner-who seemed to have a heart of gold... mentioning being extremely grateful that wires didn't break on some of the stunts he shot in STM---- and one stuntman I think was killed on STM-

Can you imagine the horror if one of the leads died or was paralyzed- directly from the film?

While I'm glad Alex Proyas is still directing from his amazing talent- I can't imagine how he feels (or anyone more recently on the Alec Baldwin films)- after what happened on the Crow with poor Brandon Lee (or the actor who held the gun that shot him!)....

While the tragedy with Reeve's horse was horrific- I honestly would have a REALLY difficult time watching a Superman film if any of it had related to wirework with the practical effects.

Even with the advancements, apparently it still causes a lot of issues with actors backs- at least reportedly it did with Tobey Maguire.... with all the wirework in Marvel films, maybe its improved to a point where there's little to no damage? (I shrug because I don't know).

But as a bizzare sidebar---

With all the CGI-
Apparently it's causing health problems with fx artists who are overworked by impossible demands!

I can kind of see it- years ago I went to school for sfx and- while its much easier today- 3d modeling when I was working with it would give me endless migraines. It was like those old kids books where you'd connect the dots to make something.... only YOU'RE the one manipulating 3d space in 2d views, and if you got one dot wrong, it would be screwed up. It might have been fun later (rotoscoping also no fun but not nearly as headache inducing).

But here's the John Campea short video discussing the basic problems in Hollywood with CGI artists going nuts and not wanting to work for Marvel:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBkZCwarLYc

Maybe Hollywood can go back to OLD methods and focus more on a great story where not so many shots are needed and/or necessary to get engaged? I know I saw an old Hitchcock film for the first time, "North by Northwest"- and the fx (though fine by that era) at the end were horrible- but I was SOOOO into the story by the end, that I was still biting nails because the movie had captivated me that much.

From Marvel tv shows to the $200 million dollar movie- to me, it's ALL story, but if Hwood were more careful and allocated more time to certain shots/fx- practical or not- it maybe could be safer, look better, and if there were less shots demanded for the time and the story, it could pop out more and be a reality. (Maybe)

Yeah the wire work can be pretty dangerous. It’s much safer now but back in Chris Reeve’s day it probably took nerves of steel to do some of those wire and harness shots even with them doing what they could do make them as safe as possible. Stunts go wrong. I know the wires did break on George Reeves and he vowed to never fly using wires or cables again. As far as I know he didn’t and they stuck with the pan for processed shots and other tricks for take offs and landings.

The entertainment industry has gotten too lazy and cheap when it comes to vfx. This is all of them. They could be doing more practically with effects and real sets but don’t. They want to do as much as possible in post with cgi because they don’t want to put the time and effort in on set.

With such over reliance on cgi it hurts the quality of the cgi. There’s so much done with not enough time and it looks like crap. It also overworks the artists while they’re making almost nothing. And because the fx houses they work for underbid each other to get contracts many of them end up going out of business. There’s going to come a time when this all comes to a head and something has to change. If enough of the fx industry went on strike big budget Hollywood films would be screwed because they’ve become so reliant on cgi in almost every shot in the big blockbusters.

[Metallo]

Jul 13, 2022 16:12:45 GMT -5 atp said:

I hate CGI in Superman movies.

The only exception is CGI villains.

Snyder has given you all the CGI villains you’d ever want!

I don’t mind cgi but they use it way too much. The cgi closeups in SR were bad enough but almost every shot in Snyder’s films use a digital double. Sometimes it’s absolutely necessary and looks good but when its not it’s painful to look at and the over abundance of it takes away from the impact. Only use it when it’s needed as one tool in the box not all of them.

The quality of cgi in some top franchises has also taken a serious nose dive in the last few years. You used to see names like ILM and Weta and were guaranteed to see great work. Now? Who knows? Between being stretched thin with the sheer amount of cgi work needed, less time to do it, and being forced to subcontract to lesser fx companies it’s only making things worse.

[Metallo]

Jul 13, 2022 19:02:51 GMT -5 dejan said:

Metallo wrote:

I get what Goyer was saying but they failed at even their goal. MoS and BVS lack real world consequences. They wanted all the emotional angst and darkness but none of the actual logic or responsibilities that come with a “real world” story. Snyder couldn’t be consistent so he raised certain issues then completely forgot about them. His films lack heart, common sense, and any real emotional depth or stakes

Could not agree more.

To be fair I was being a bit tongue in cheek with Goyer in my previous post.

Having said that if you goto approx 3:00 in the making of MoS video......
 
Deborah Snyder says:
"We wanted to have real places and not have Supes crash into fictitious locations. We wanted everything to feel as real as possible".

Good job!................lol!:

Funny since Smallville and Metropolis are fake places. And all the destruction in both is totally glossed over. When Clark gets a job at the Daily Planet at the end of MOS it’s like nothing happened. We don’t see the city wide destruction and people are going on with their lives like nothing happened. We all remember post 9/11. It took years for things to get close to something normal again and it never really did. It’s never been exactly as it was before that day. Zod destroying much of a major American city would be ten times more impactful than that.

Then there’s Smallville. I mean…there’s no way a town that small could absorb all the cost of that. Maybe they’d get federal emergency relief funds but I doubt there’s insurance coverage for alien invasion destruction. Would that fall under act of God? Act of Zod? Nothings ever said of it. Goyer sucks as a writer.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 13, 2022 20:22:10 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 13, 2022 19:02:51 GMT -5 dejan said:

Metallo wrote:
Could not agree more.

To be fair I was being a bit tongue in cheek with Goyer in my previous post.

Having said that if you goto approx 3:00 in the making of MoS video......
 
Deborah Snyder says:
"We wanted to have real places and not have Supes crash into fictitious locations. We wanted everything to feel as real as possible".

Good job!................lol!:

Funny since Smallville and Metropolis are fake places. And all the destruction in both is totally glossed over. When Clark gets a job at the Daily Planet at the end of MOS it’s like nothing happened. We don’t see the city wide destruction and people are going on with their lives like nothing happened. We all remember post 9/11. It took years for things to get close to something normal again and it never really did. It’s never been exactly as it was before that day. Zod destroying much of a major American city would be ten times more impactful than that.

Then there’s Smallville. I mean…there’s no way a town that small could absorb all the cost of that. Maybe they’d get federal emergency relief funds but I doubt there’s insurance coverage for alien invasion destruction. Would that fall under act of God? Act of Zod? Nothings ever said of it. Goyer sucks as a writer.

I still feel with a good counterbalance writing wise, good movies could come of a Goyer script. In seeing his series with him as showrunner, there's still good ideas- but it's buried under too much depression and dreariness from what I've seen.

[Kamdan]

I also watched 76's Logan's Run recently and sure the camera pans are slow, as they survey the miniatures......but they are still real miniatures!......and your perception comprehends that sense of physical reality(mine does anyways lol).

I will take that, than some fast moving World Engine tentacle that looks like an elaborate cartoon......or as ATP said.....a s****y video game!

Sadly, someone like Snyder would counteract your criticisms by claiming that those models look more phony to him than your views on the CGI. They also like to prey upon “nostalgia lenses” that make older practical effects like those believable. I still at the town flooding scenes from Superman I with the obvious scale models and I’m sure it ate a huge chunk of Donner’s personal perfectionism, but it was considered to be the best they can do at the time and that’s the same mentality when applied to modern special effects. I believe The Mandalorian is wasting their time and resources filming models when all of those elements are going to be composited in a computer anyways.

I get what Goyer was saying but they failed at even their goal. MoS and BVS lack real world consequences. They wanted all the emotional angst and darkness but none of the actual logic or responsibilities that come with a “real world” story. Snyder couldn’t be consistent so he raised certain issues then completely forgot about them. His films lack heart, common sense, and any real emotional depth or stakes.

I’m 1,000% nobody saw nothing wrong with the destruction depicted in Man of Steel until the criticisms started to pour in. For Snyder, this was no different from the scale of destruction Michael Bay depicted in Transformers, which brushed off any concern or consequence other than providing satisfactory action. Proof of this mentality of tone deafness was on Snyder’s part to think this backdrop was a good place for Lois to kiss Superman. Conveniently, they needed a reason for Batman to want to confront Superman and were able to use our criticisms to their advantage. Too bad the reason they unite was openly mocked and didn’t land as well as they thought it would.

While the tragedy with Reeve's horse was horrific- I honestly would have a REALLY difficult time watching a Superman film if any of it had related to wirework with the practical effects.

Even with the advancements, apparently it still causes a lot of issues with actors backs- at least reportedly it did with Tobey Maguire.... with all the wirework in Marvel films, maybe its improved to a point where there's little to no damage? (I shrug because I don't know).

I’ve heard Reeve mention that one of his reluctances of doing a fourth Superman was having to deal with the strain he suffered from the previous films. Dean Cain has always said that if you want to feel what it’s like to play Superman, he advises you to position yourself in the classic flying pose on a chair and see how long it takes for you to stop because of the strain it causes. You do that repeatedly and you’ll definitely suffer problems.

This is exactly why we’re seeing an increase in CGI models for stunts, like the often criticized shot of Routh lifting the space shuttle in Superman Returns. The shot they wanted to achieve was likely too difficult to achieve with wires and green screen with all of the right elements and they must have just let it fly with the mentality that “it’s the best we can do for the moment.” It turned into one of the big criticisms of the movie and many questioned why that was necessary.

With all the CGI-Apparently it's causing health problems with fx artists who are overworked by impossible demands!

It is a shame as you detailed about the strains of effects work being suffered by the artists. I’m sure there was an equal amount of burdens suffered for thd effects work on older films. I can’t imagine the frustrations with seeing a misaligned matte shot after a day of running it through an optical printer only to completely start over again with your deadline either fast approaching or already over. Today’s effects artists have it much easier to fix problems, but the easier they have it, the more can be demanded to do.

[crazy_asian_man]

]I’m 1,000% nobody saw nothing wrong with the destruction depicted in Man of Steel until the criticisms started to pour in. For Snyder, this was no different from the scale of destruction Michael Bay depicted in Transformers, which brushed off any concern or consequence other than providing satisfactory action. Proof of this mentality of tone deafness was on Snyder’s part to think this backdrop was a good place for Lois to kiss Superman.

I didn't mind it if a Superman movie wanted to tip into the horror of the level of destruction- as long as it was done the way Mank and Donner were going to do it, with Supes horrified and having to try to save people simultaneously.

While there's a bit of it, it's done so badly in MOS anything Supes does to save anyone is outweighed by his massive neglect of the damage done while it's happening... add to that the way Snyder chose to tell the story is superspeed blurs was just sensory overload and also came off as heartlessness at the core of it as well.

A Supes movie as "Independence Day" I was okay with- if done right. But that's probably the core of the problem I had/have with MOS- the dramatic scenes landed with a thud (not helped by GOyer's script)- and -as we mentioned... Superman being ridiculously callous to the suffering around him.

Even the semi-comedic "Thor: Ragnarok" always had Thor care about its citizens amidst the laughter, and the tragedy of even the whole planet getting destroyed was oddly never lost even with the humor!!!