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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 27, 2011 19:38:09 GMT -5
When in doubt, ask me! I don't read crap. Well...sometimes I do, but I'll tell you if it is.
And as for the same creators on a book...
Green Lantern has been written by Geoff Johns since about 2003. There have never been better Green Lantern comics.
Batman has been written by Grant Morrison since 2006. I haven't enjoyed Batman this much since I was a kid.
Brian Michael Bendis has been writing Ultimate Spider-Man for ELEVEN years now. The first EIGHT of those years (yes. Years. Not issues. Not story arcs. Years. Over 100 issues) are the best Spider-Man comics I've ever read in my life. Yes, as good as Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita.
Gail Simone has been writing Secret Six (a DC supervillain/mercenary team) since 2006. It is the best thing DC publishes.
Ed Brubaker has been writing Captain America since about 2003. I'm fairly certain that these are the best Captain America comics I've ever read. And I've read plenty.
Brian Bendis has been writing The Avengers since 2003. While I'm not a huge fan of his Avengers stuff, clearly he's doing something right.
It DOES happen.
TRUST THE TALENT, people. Fuck everything else. If the talent is there, the books will be good. You can get your head around all the little twists and turns that editorial policy will dictate, re-numberings, continuity glitches and reboots, all of it is meaningless as long as the talent actually writing/drawing the books is of a high enough quality.
Don't give in to nerd rage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2011 20:30:50 GMT -5
Again, I'm not opposed to dropping the trunks and making a few subtle costume changes ... but again, I've seen better fan designs. To think that they paid Lee for this is irritating.
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Post by MAVERICK on Jun 27, 2011 20:39:46 GMT -5
To think that they pay Lee for this is irritating. Fixed. |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jun 27, 2011 22:15:00 GMT -5
A few other little things I've managed to glean from various sources... Action and JLA are DEFINITELY set in the past. But, in the case of JLA, it's ONLY for the first arc. I wonder if this is true for Action as well? Clearly, these are the two most important books in the relaunch. Also, I don't think we have to worry about Superman's origins being changed all that drastically. At the retailer roadshow, they pointed specifically to the fact that the Death Of Superman story, for example, DID happen. I still think the biggest change we're gonna see is the removal of the marriage (THANK FUCKING CHRIST), and everything else will be "Man Of Steel" style streamlining and tweaking. It looks like the only characters that are full-blown reboots are Aquaman, Hawkman, Captain Atom, and maybe Green Arrow. In other words, characters that were completely fucked to begin with, so it's all for the best. Supes and Wonder Woman appear to be softer reboots. It's still unclear what all this means for Wally West, the Shazam family, and the JSA. I still think the JSA have been moved off to Earth 2 or some such, which, well, makes sense. And quite frankly, you won't find a bigger Shazam fan than me, but he's never really worked quite right in the DCU proper. He's had his moments here and there, but for the most part, the Marvel Family works best in their own universe with the occasional interdimensional crossover. I'm pretty much OK with them being gone, as long as, at some point, they find a writer/artist team who can ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH THEM. i think shazam is quite cozy in the DCU, as long as they down-play the camp. but it is what it is. maybe the new "earth-2" will have captain marvel as the alternate superman for the JSA..... |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 27, 2011 22:21:21 GMT -5
I...love...you.
That's often been my solution in my own little continuity. JSA/All Star Squadron needs a caped powerhouse during WW2, but, of course, Superman comes "later". Why not Cap?
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ShogunLogan
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If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
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Post by ShogunLogan on Jun 28, 2011 13:14:39 GMT -5
Val...the only problem with Bendis is that the issues he writes can be read in 4 minutes. Here I spend $3-$4 and it's over in 4 minutes.
I guess he should be read in TPB but I, personally, rather read the individual comics.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 28, 2011 13:40:35 GMT -5
TOTALLY AGREE. All those Spidey arcs read beautifully in trades, but not as well in single issues. And I (as you can probably tell) also prefer single issues.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 28, 2011 21:09:04 GMT -5
Lee may be a fan favorite that sells books, (and its said that as far as comic artist goes, he's pretty pleasant to fans--- not always the case)- but a great costume designer he's NOT.
Wonder Woman's redesign with that black jacket? OUGH! ;p
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 28, 2011 21:13:25 GMT -5
That's my whole problem with many of the books - they're thin, fast to read, and mostly prepped to be collected in a trade paperback before it even leaves the printing press.... and aren't cheap. Most books picked up from the bronze age have a TON of story in it- sometimes to the detriment of the art, but at least it doesn't feel so often like $4 for a brochure of a story, as most comics seem like today, with their page counts and pinup pages.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 28, 2011 21:15:29 GMT -5
Ah, forgot to thank you for this post, Val! It does encourage me more knowing there's someone out there keeping a close eye on what to get/not to get in the comics shop! Thanks! Soon as the money loosens up, will start checking those out!  |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jun 29, 2011 18:13:05 GMT -5
well... jim, we probably should put this in the COMICS forum as it ends up not being about the movie or anything... |
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Post by MAVERICK on Jun 29, 2011 23:48:16 GMT -5
Hm?
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Keith
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Post by Keith on Jun 30, 2011 1:23:56 GMT -5
It should stay here, it is about Superman after all.
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cypher85
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Back off, man. I'm a scientist
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Post by cypher85 on Jun 30, 2011 12:58:00 GMT -5
Looks like this thread has been banished to where it might get one comment a week.
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ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
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Post by ShogunLogan on Jun 30, 2011 15:27:06 GMT -5
What's the big deal? It's a thread about DC COMICS revamping their COMIC line, starting their COMICS back to #1 and reimaging their COMIC characters. In the COMIC book format. Of COMICS.
COMIC.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jun 30, 2011 15:38:56 GMT -5
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jun 30, 2011 16:58:28 GMT -5
yeah- he was able to make the elctric blue superman interesting even when the core books were SHIT.
i might pick up that flashpoint superman mini series tomorow if i'm able.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 2, 2011 8:55:45 GMT -5
www.bleedingcool.com/2011/07/01/midnight-sales-for-justice-league-and-flashpoint-%E2%80%93-frequently-asked-questions-about-the-dc-new-52-relaunch/A few interesting tidbits... * DC Comics has had a number of reboots, what makes this one different? This is not a reboot, it’s a launch. This is a historic initiative for DC Entertainment and the DC Comics characters – and a first in the company’s publishing history. This next era of DC Comics characters will see 52 all-new #1 issues of its super hero titles at the same time AND same-day digital across the board. In addition to the number changes, our talented creative teams are working behind the scenes to create compelling storylines and new costume designs for many of our iconic DC Comics characters. * Why not call it a reboot? It’s not a reboot. A reboot is typically a restart of the story or character that jettisons away everything that happened previously. This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past. For the stories launching as new #1s in September, we have carefully hand-selected the most powerful and pertinent moments in these characters’ lives and stories to remain in the mythology and lore. And then we’ve asked the best creators in the industry to modernize, update and enhance the books with new and exciting tales. The result is that we retained the good stuff, and then make it better. * Does The New 52 undo events or continuity that I’ve been reading? Some yes, some no. But many of the great stories remain. For example – Batgirl. The Killing Joke still happened and she was Oracle. Now she will go through physical rehabilitation and become a more seasoned and nuanced character because she had these incredible and diverse experiences. * So will all titles be entry points or will you need to know back-story for some? Each title will read as a #1 issue that will make jumping into the story extremely accessible for all types of readers. The stories are designed in a way that new fans will be able to pick up a book and immediately be drawn into the story, while at the same time existing fans will be engrossed by the new and epic moments that take place. * Do the new #1s mean that the previous stories didn’t take place? Our creative teams have a firm understanding of the storied heritage of characters and titles. The new #1 issues will introduce readers to a more modern, diverse universe of DC Comics characters, with some character variations in appearance, origin and age. All stories will be grounded in each character’s legend – but will map to real world situations, interactions, tragedies and triumphs. Overall, DC Entertainment is focused on putting out the most innovative storylines, featuring the most iconic characters, created by the most creative minds within the industry. * Might you just introduce a new DC “Ultimate” line and give it the spotlight for a few months, then have the opportunity to bring back the other continuity? Will this all be put back to “normal” after a few months? No – this is the new universe of DC Comics characters. This is an epic and ambitious initiative that ushers in the next era of the DC Comics characters and will set the tone for storylines and characters for years to come. This is not an “event,” because events expire.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 6, 2011 16:51:51 GMT -5
bullshit.
dan didio and DC are INCAPABLE of telling the truth.
first, they announce a DC-wide "relaunch" with all new costumes, origins and #1's.
THEN- they say thier motive is to make comics simpler, easier for newbies and a fresh start to reinvent the characters for a new generation.
BUT WAIT- only superman and a couple others are actually being changed. batman? his books were selling well so we'll keep that. green lantern? unchanged.
EXCEPT there's just a teensy weensy problem. IF there is NO "JSA", there is no alan scott green lantern. for the last 15 years, alan scott, hal jordon and kyle rainer have been green lantern/and/or/ pralaxx/and/or/sentinal/and/or/ION/or green lantern.
they have co-existed, overlapped and inter-acted. to have alan scott vanish IS a HUGE revision. to keep, what was, but then get rid of SOME of what was- is JUST-ANOTHER-HALF-ASSED-RET-CONN.
which means, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT DC HAS DONE SEVERAL TIMES.
second, they say that the ENTIRE DCU is being re-written around the idea that SUPERMAN is the "first" superhero.
but that simply ISN'T true.
i just read "flashpoint: progect superman". it is a prequel/sidequel to the (still, another) official origin of superman. in it, general sam lane- a younger sam lane- is already aware of, and trepidatious of , "metahumans" and wants to have a military-controlled crew of meta-humans.
THEN baby kal-el arrives.
so- how can sam lane be aware of, and trying to control superheroes of there aren't any?
SO-
complete relaunch?
NO. another ret-con that arbitrarily throws out SOME stuff, keeps other stuff.
less confusing/more accessible?
NO. you'll need a glenn beck chalk board and a thousand back-issues to decipher what IS or ISN'T "continuity"
superman the first superhero?
clearly not.
now, i know i'll get wrapped in the mouth for this, because, yes- continuity has NEVER been a concern for DC. in fact, there BEST material (kingdom come, wathcmen, all-star superman, dark knight, alex ross' justice) has always been deliberately OUTSIDE "continuity".
but it is galling, it is beyond the pale, to say that this is anything other than what it is:
another confusing ret-con. instead of making it a TRUE relaunch, and strating everything over free and clear with no baggage, they want to have /cake eat it too.
now, if a story is good, then a story is good. reading byrne's "man of steel" can't be easily reconciled with "all-star".
that's NOT thepoint.
the point is DC is full of shit.
STOP lying.
STOP saying it's a full relaunch then back-pedal into a ret-con then try to justify it with "digital comics" being the "breakthrough".
they could have done digital comics already. they could re-start the DCU with the JSA, wait a couple years and bring int he silver-age. THAT would be a TRUE ''relaunch''.
DC?
i'm still waiting to be impressed.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 6, 2011 16:56:06 GMT -5
This is not a reboot, it’s a launch.
Why not call it a reboot?
It’s not a reboot. A reboot is typically a restart of the story or character that jettisons away everything that happened previously.
This is a new beginning which builds off the best of the past
The result is that we retained the good stuff, and then make it better.
Does The New 52 undo events or continuity that I’ve been reading?
Some yes, some no.
;D
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 6, 2011 21:12:59 GMT -5
You...actually bought a Flashpoint tie-in? No wonder you're so angry!
Once again, I could give two shits about continuity. I buy the books with the talent that I trust. Anyone who will pass up books by creators they like because (Comic Book Guy voice) "I don't want to live in a world where Alan Scott wasn't the first Green Lantern" pretty much needs a new hobby.
I don't care that The Teen Titans and Superboy appear to be full-blown reboots because...well...they look like shit anyway. I wouldn't buy a Scott Lobdell book unless the cure for cancer was printed in the centerfold. But if it was Ed Brubaker or Dan Slott or Geoff Johns or Grant Morrison writing it, well...make Superboy from Neptune and give him antenna for all I care, because I know the book will probably be good.
As for the JSA, they're likely back on Earth 2. Where they belong. There was never a satisfactory explanation about why characters born in 1910 are still running around in the DCU, and the idea of a "golden age" of superheroes predating the "modern age" by 70 years was getting unwieldy from an editorial standpoint. And the JSA books have been garbage for the last couple of years, so I won't miss them. I'll always have my issues of All Star Squadron and the Geoff Johns JSA stuff.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 7, 2011 15:57:36 GMT -5
;D
val, you're my concience here.
but hey, if it's silly to have the JSA around because they "should be too old" then the SAME is true for superman. he predates the JSA.
granted, we could say that superman is supposed to outlive his peers, but it's still a cheat to have superman a 30-something .. now a 20-something with him as the first superhero and then ignore the JSA.
frankly, having a 'golden age" to appeal to isn't a bad idea.
what's pissing me off is the bullshit that this is somehow "not" a ret-con and a "full relaunch".
but i agree, a talented team can make a good story, even if continuity is gang-raped.
heck, as far as DC goes, "continuity" is as sturdy a s a bombed-out shanty town parked on a richter scale 9.9 fault line, in the shadow of a tsunami in the path of a comet.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 7, 2011 16:42:40 GMT -5
Sorry, I might have been a little unclear regarding my stance on the JSA. Here's what I mean.
The JSA, as currently portrayed in the DCU, was active during World War II. In fact, EVERYTHING about the book and the concept hinges COMPLETELY on their wartime origins, the "age" of the characters, and the legacies that they inspire. However, there has never been a nice, simple, "Captain America was frozen in ice for 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years" explanation for how the JSA have been around so long, why some of them aged, some of them didn't, some of them had kids who aged while others didn't, etc. etc. This is why, increasingly over the last decade, the JSA books have been less about Alan Scott, Jay Garrick, Wildcat, etc, and more about the legacy characters like the new Mr. Terrific (who's really cool), the new Hourman (ditto), Stargirl, Sand, etc.
Worse (from an editorial standpoint, not that of a fan, as it's never bothered me in the slightest), as time marches on, it creates a HUGE gap between "superheroic eras". In other words, merging Earth 1 and Earth 2 in 1986 meant that, hey, The JSA disappeared in the 50s or 60s, but by the late 70s there was a new heroic era. Now we'd be looking at a gap of nearly SIXTY years. I can see how, from an editorial and storytelling standpoint, this becomes unwieldy.
If this is indeed the case, then yes, it does make sense to shunt them back off to New Earth-2 (or whatever) so that in the main DCU, Superman is the first superhero (inspiring ALL others after him, which was THE norm until post-Crisis) and the JLA is the first group of proper superheroes. When I said "chronological age" I meant it. Current continuity DCU Superman has always been active for roughly the last 10-15 years, and they move his childhood up accordingly (I am now older than Superman). But the JSA was ALWAYS active in WW2, and therefore you're dealing with characters who were "born" around 1915.
Now, to take YOUR idea (which I think is pretty cool, actually) about re-booting the universe and starting with the JSA, and then 5 or 10 years down the road introducing the "new" Flash, Green Lantern, etc. It's cool, but I'm assuming that you'd be starting in the present day, which would require significant revamps of the JSA ANYWAY. But again, the problem is...Jay Garrick and Alan Scott (especially Alan) look pretty corny to the modern reader. And I LOVE those characters and the designs and whatever. But there's no way in heck you're gonna sell a "magic" Green Lantern with a purple cape and a red shirt and a domino mask to the public in 2011. They are for weirdo Golden Age fetishists like me (and probably you), and they don't need to die out completely (we'll always have the Multiverse to know that there are stories to tell), but it makes storytelling and universe building a little simpler without them.
And I'll raise you one more. The example you cite, of the GL stuff being messed up because of Alan Scott's removal is NOTHING compared to the hiccups the merging of the Earths caused after Crisis. Suddenly, there are hundreds of JSA stories featuring Superman, but post-Crisis...Superman was never a member of the JSA and the Earth 2 Superman NEVER EVEN EXISTED!!!! DC tried to explain that void with various "powerhouse" characters like "Iron Munro" and all were dismal failures. From a pure continuity standpoint, this is much more troublesome than the Green Lantern issue, because in all honesty, we could easily go back through the last 10 years of DC Comics and count on one hand the amount of times Alan Scott shows up in a GL book or Hal or Kyle shows up in the JSA.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 7, 2011 17:28:20 GMT -5
fair enough, and well stated. but, it is an historical fact (" an" historical fact- ask spock, that's the correct way to say it) that superman WAS first. then the other golden age characters, then JSA. as for "selling"magic characters..uhh....WB has a billion dollars of cash based on harry potter, so i don't think "selling magic" would be the difficulty. your points about the "age" ( we are so innane even debating this  ) of alan scott and jay garrick are well said. there was an attempt in the 90's to say that alan scott's ring, garricks tie to the "speed force" ( the speed force, god love mark waid, was dumb) and wildcat's "9-lives" were able to explain thier longevity. but 20 years later, it is a stretch to have ( verisimilitude verisimilitude versimilitude) adults inthier prime in WWII still healthy and spry NOW. so- if DC wants to re-invent continuity, then i say, superman and batman SHOULD have a paralell inthe JSA, just as it was in the old earth-1/earth-2 days. in fact- i submit- this is a PERFECT oppurtunity to restore a "best of both worlds" approach. Kal-L is superman. Kal-El is superman. we can't just pretend that JSA never happened. it's a waste of great material/characters. (if you want to get NERDGASMIC- i remember reading how early fantastic four comics {set in the 60's} had reed richards recall fighting in WWII- but by the 80's that was implausible- so they re-wrote it that reed had travelled back in time and joined the allies in a time before he was born) |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Jul 7, 2011 17:47:34 GMT -5
When I was mocking "magic" Allan Scott, I was pointing out how unwieldy it is to have a different character with a similar but different power set with the SAME NAME running around in the same reality.
Everything else, I agree with. In fact, I bet we'll see exactly that. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Kal-L back with the JSA on their alternate world, and that's just fine with me!
It's kinda why I'm OK with Captain Marvel being sent off into the Multiverse, as well. I just think that putting the Marvel Family in the middle of the "realistic" DCU just...always ends up failing. There's only a handful of stories you can tell with them like that. But, on an Earth-S where more whimsical/Shazam-appropriate stories can be told, well...
I think that karmically we both owe our significant others dinner and a foot massage considering that we can carry on like this and still they don't move out on us.
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) of alan scott and jay garrick are well said. there was an attempt in the 90's to say that alan scott's ring, garricks tie to the "speed force" (the speed force, god love mark waid, was dumb) and wildcat's "9-lives" were able to explain thier longevity.