|
|
Post by Olly H 82 on Aug 18, 2012 4:16:13 GMT -5
This weeks review is a biggie - Superman II and the Donner Cut. If you disagree with anything i say in the review thats cool, i respect that.
Enjoy!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by booshman on Aug 18, 2012 5:56:50 GMT -5
Good work as usual Olly!
I could be wrong, but I don't think Selutron has actually made a complete edit, just the selection of clips that are online, and his end scene, which he showed to Mank and the WB folks. I believe the aim was to get the go ahead, based on those clips, to be able to create an official new edit with access to the WB archive.
You're dead on about needing a more experienced editor than Thau on the project, and a decent budget would have helped a lot. The praise the Donner Cut receives baffles me, elements of it are great, but as a whole it's weak.
|
|
|
|
Post by Olly H 82 on Aug 18, 2012 6:20:02 GMT -5
cheers man. I recall reading he did make a new edit of the film. i think Dharmesh has seen it. i could be wrong. will find out soon! lol
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Aug 18, 2012 8:05:50 GMT -5
Oh yeah, he made an entire edit. He showed it to WB. At least, I think that's what the letter said. Man that was like what, 4-5 years ago now? Well, either way I'm happy he gave us the clips in better quality. The new opening is leaps and bounds better than the one he originally made with the kid narrating. The "sick fantasy" line as the opening line is a great touch and nod to the first line in part 1.
Doesn't matter though. Booshman's cut is gonna be the best one yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2012 10:08:08 GMT -5
Great video, Ollie! I agree with most (if not all) of your assessment ofthe SIIs here.
.
Recently I did a search on the reactions to the RDC and the old interview with Thau and was reminded (and suprised) how some of Donner's influence hurt rather than helped the RDC--like removing some of his own footage (the approach to the Fortress and the arctic police scene) & 'speeding up/rushing through' the Lester footage- and
Thau's own desire to speed things up (based on what he said he wanted to cut on STM for the 2006 edition).
It's truly sad that Lester was the wrong man (for the most part) to finish SII- and hurt Donner's tone and intentions intentionally--- and that Thau hurt Donner's tone and intentions UN-intentionally.
It's a pity that Stuart Baird wasn't obsessed with finishing SII as an edit, even as there was little money for him--- if Baird's editing style remained the same now as then, that is. The fans wanted to see what would have been done then, as close as possible... I can only think that Baird MIGHT have been the one to save the day- especially as we see now how much his editing style/tastes shaped STM after the RDC.
To this day it still sadly feels like the IRC reached the feeling of what SII might have felt like under Donner far closer than the RDC did. Ironically, it treats the Donner footage with more respect than the Donner-approved cut does!
|
|
|
|
Post by booshman on Aug 18, 2012 12:42:37 GMT -5
Oh yeah, he made an entire edit. He showed it to WB. At least, I think that's what the letter said. Man that was like what, 4-5 years ago now? Well, either way I'm happy he gave us the clips in better quality. The new opening is leaps and bounds better than the one he originally made with the kid narrating. The "sick fantasy" line as the opening line is a great touch and nod to the first line in part 1. Doesn't matter though. Booshman's cut is gonna be the best one yet. If that's the case then he should just release the thing. I thought the whole point of going to WB for an official release was to get as yet unreleased footage to finish his edit. If it's been done with what's already out then what's the hold up. As for my edit, you'll probably see a Justice League film before it's finished.  |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Aug 18, 2012 12:58:05 GMT -5
As for my edit, you'll probably see a Justice League film before it's finished. No hurries at all man. The longer it takes, the better I know it's gonna be. With the job I've been working lately and having very little time for myself, I understand exactly how hard it is to dedicate time to something as complicated as this not just for fun, but without any money going into it, or after it's done. I've been patient enough for the Restore KCOP of STM, I can be patient for this. I hardly have time to even think about it anyway ;D Though don't take that as my way of saying I can't put in my input anymore. I will ALWAYS make time to help you improve it when you give us a new clip and want opinions/ideas. Who knows, maybe if Sel stays MIA, maybe YOU can show WB what you're capable of. If they were to see ANOTHER fan edited version of the film, they may see $$ signs for putting their money into a project like this. They may finally see that giving this film one more try IS a good investment because it does have a following. |
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,823 
|
Post by atp on Aug 18, 2012 14:02:32 GMT -5
Personally, I think Mr Thau would still be the best person to make a new version of S2, but he needs to have proper support from the studio. If he was given enough time, a proper team and budget, and a CGI department, his version would be better than anyone else's.
|
|
|
|
Post by booshman on Aug 18, 2012 16:06:04 GMT -5
Personally, I think Mr Thau would still be the best person to make a new version of S2, but he needs to have proper support from the studio. If he was given enough time, a proper team and budget, and a CGI department, his version would be better than anyone else's. ;D ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Aug 18, 2012 16:08:32 GMT -5
Personally, I think Mr Thau would still be the best person to make a new version of S2, but he needs to have proper support from the studio. If he was given enough time, a proper team and budget, and a CGI department, his version would be better than anyone else's.  |
|
|
|
Post by Tristan D on Aug 19, 2012 11:44:15 GMT -5
Very good review.
Completely agree that the best version of Superman II lies somewhere between Donner and Lester.
Donner and Mank, much as we are fond of and grateful to them, were too personally involved and injured I feel to provide an objective view of the RDC.
The best case in point for this is the Lester Niagara Falls sequence, which is rushed through in the RDC, particularly amputating it's denouement. The main point of the scene (even in the script that Donner filmed) is to conclude with Lois' cheeky realisation that Clark is never around when Superman is. Despite it actually running more or less as scripted before Mank and Donner left it cuts off abruptly with Lois slightly sad at Superman leaving so quickly. Next we see Lois in the 'blank-bullet' scene and the change is jarring.
It might have been Thau's choice, but it seems more likely to me that there was pressure from Donner to push through Lester's material as quick as possible.
The love story between Lois and Clark plays differently between Donner and Lester. Donner seems to go for a light-hearted rom-com feel and Lester a more syrupy soap opera. I'm not sure which I prefer (Donner's seems to0 flippant, but Lester's too cloying).
The RDC also, as far as it seems to me, tried to show alternative takes to give its own stamp on scenes. Unfortunately, I think many of them were more inferior (e.g. Lois' exclamation of 'Superman!' in the RDC is weak compared with the genuine surprise and relief that is conveyed in Lester's version). And why change the 'I'm not a coward' line?
|
|
|
|
Post by Olly H 82 on Aug 19, 2012 12:39:38 GMT -5
Im sure Richard Lester reviewed what had been shot at the time by Donner and saw what needed to be re shot and within the lowest number of camera set ups.
I prefer Zod's deeper voice in the lester footage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 19, 2012 13:55:03 GMT -5
That was an outstanding sII recap!
Loved the montage and clip selection and commentary
For the first time in many months I actually feel like watching it again
Can't wait to see these ambitious fan cuts we're talking about!
|
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 19, 2012 13:58:19 GMT -5
In fact I'd say that review is more candid and objective than any of the official DVD docs
|
|
|
|
Post by Olly H 82 on Aug 19, 2012 14:20:36 GMT -5
Jor-L5150 thank you very much for the great feedback.  |
|
Knight
New Member
@Knighty80
Posts: 1,069
|
Post by Knight on Aug 20, 2012 5:05:08 GMT -5
With II my thoughts are such, which Olly pretty much covered in the review.
Lester's Cut was poorly and quickly written but better performed. TDC is written better by miles but the performances are not as good.
The continuity of the screen test lets the cut down for me. I love the writing, the self confidence stuff is great but, again, I wish this was shot for real. That god awful re-write in the DP with the cigarettes, blurgch, is awful!!
That said, TDC has some beautiful moments. I love Clark's ''There's no one there to help them now, the people of the world, not since I...'' and the end of FOS stuff with Lois and Superman and the ending on the balcony too (apart from MK's looped out voice).
I now watch II over three nights, LC, DC and then the RIC.
sigh!
|
|
|
|
Post by Olly H 82 on Aug 20, 2012 5:16:42 GMT -5
i always thought it was strange Margots voice was lopped at the end in the Donner cut?. In the extended TV broadcast her voice was fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 20, 2012 5:53:29 GMT -5
Great points, Tristan-
With what's existing, I totally agree....
Agreed. It's a horrible transition--- with the RDC, it ends with Lois being downbeat- then when it returns with the screentest, Lois is perky and upbeat & it makes NO sense. (If they retained the theatrical ending of that scene with Lois getting excited again about the coincidental appearance of Supes/Clark- it actually would have made far more sense to transition to the screen test when it came back to Niagara later-
What's odd is that Donner seemed to give pressure to get through his OWN material as fast as possible (outside of the excess Lex stuff) too!
In looking at the whole (with the Mank script)--- it's interesting that Donner would have kept a light hearted rom-com feel as you mentioned, before it would have gotten heavy and serious from the Jorel depowering on.
Lester's is written badly and shot terribly, even though performed well. Odd.
Again, true--- I dug the alternates with the rehashed Phantom Zone trial, (in fact it could have even used more as we saw this already in STM) but otherwise in almost every case an alternate was used (the exception I think being some of the shots with the expanded DP attack and the white house), it was a worse shot.
|
|
|
|
Post by booshman on Aug 20, 2012 7:33:06 GMT -5
That said, TDC has some beautiful moments. I love Clark's ''There's no one there to help them now, the people of the world, not since I...'' I don't like the way this scene plays out in the Donner Cut. Reeve mumbles his way through the scene and I don't really believe him. Compared to the Lester version it's night and day. Such a shame Donner never got to reshoot the scene once Reeve was more comfortable in the role. |
|
Knight
New Member
@Knighty80
Posts: 1,069
|
Post by Knight on Aug 20, 2012 9:16:46 GMT -5
Yea, Margo being looped out at the end of TDC really winds me up. The version in the RIC is beautiful, a genuinely emotional performance.
|
|
|
|
Post by EnriqueH on Aug 20, 2012 10:58:22 GMT -5
Good job, Olly.
Where can I see Selutron's footage? I always heard about it, but your review really makes me want to check it out.
Nevermind, I just looked it up on Youtube.
WOW! That shit was impressive.
Loved the "Niagra Bullets" and "Villains land in DC" bit.
COOL!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 20, 2012 11:26:31 GMT -5
I love the way that this READ on paper years ago before in the Mank script.
We know two things:
#1- That Donner is a perfectionist in terms of performance, and got in trouble for multiple takes of everything.
#2- That Thau/Donner wanted 'fast fast fast' for whatever reason.
The idea of Clark almost RUNNING in, then stopping, and then mumbling this speech just feels wrong for the way this was written. Were these the best takes or the ones that moved the fastest?
I always pictured the bit of Clark saying this mini-monologue as being performed similarly to how Jorel spoke of his speech to his son in STM before sending him off in the starship--- slow, emotional...
Not dissimiliar to how Reeve performed the 'I failed' in the theatrical--- but I was looking forward to Reeve really milking these lines for maximum emotion, not mumbling, too.
Almost all of the scenes in STM are done to maximum effect emotionally, but the disappointment with the RDC for me is that much of the time, the intention editingwise to make it go as fast as possible seems to really undermine it's own scenes.
I'm guessing that there were better takes out there performancewise- (given Donner's track record not just for STM but all of his films). but if this is really what was intended back in 1980, and wasn't going to be reshot, then it is disappointing.
|
|
|
|
Post by supes81 on Aug 25, 2012 20:40:23 GMT -5
Great review. If it wasn't for the memory kiss I would love that end scene with Lois and Clark from the theatrical. Lester did a great job with the more emotionally intense scenes in his Superman II.
Though in saying that, those scenes would make no sense in Donner's version, since it takes place the day after the end of the first one. The tone of both movies is different for a reason. It makes sense in Donner's for the love story to be somewhat lighthearted until Clark gives up his powers, while in Lester's Lois and Clark have known each other for a number of years and have created more of a bond.
Does anyone think there is any footage still not seen in any version i.e DC, LC and RIC? I personally doubt it, but I wonder how exhaustive the search was when the DC was being made. I know Donner said in an interview in the 80's he shot the blank bullets scene (though I guess he confused it with the screen test) and I have always been curious about why Donner never shot the Lois/Superman date scene at the Fortress of Solitude. He shot every other scene on that set for both films but that one.
I also wonder why he didn't have a second unit (even with Lester) shoot the villans confrontation with the Houston police officers, it was such a short easy scene to film in comparison to other scenes in both films.
|
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Aug 25, 2012 21:16:37 GMT -5
I have always been curious about why Donner never shot the Lois/Superman date scene at the Fortress of Solitude. He shot every other scene on that set for both films but that one. The set was destroyed for the scene when Krypton explodes. They re-used it for that one shot. The set needed to be rebuilt. THAT'S why the FOS looks different in Lester's 2. As for why it was destroyed before the date scene was shot.... I think the FOS scenes with Brando and Hackman were shot first (as well all know the story as to why). However, the scenes of Supes and Lois on their date would not have had Brando, so they were going to be shot later. However, this was probably before the decision was made to finish part 1 first. Once that decision was made, the set was re-used, and thus destroyed. Think about it. The Donner FOS scenes in the DC ALL have either Hackman or Brando in them. And the "date" scene was the only one that needed to be filmed. That and if Donner decided to film a post-scene after Supes loses his powers ("Just say you love me"). And the subsequent sex scene of course. Again, Brando wouldn't have been needed for these scene, and again, it wasn't shot since they figured they'd shoot it later. But again, they decided to finish part 1 instead. Think about the scene after Supes destroys the FOS where him and Lois talk. Reeve looks different. His hair is different, the cape hangs different, and his build is bigger. Margot's eyebrows are a different shape as well. This scene must've been shot later. |
|
|
|
Post by supes81 on Aug 25, 2012 22:29:16 GMT -5
I have always been curious about why Donner never shot the Lois/Superman date scene at the Fortress of Solitude. He shot every other scene on that set for both films but that one. The set was destroyed for the scene when Krypton explodes. They re-used it for that one shot. The set needed to be rebuilt. THAT'S why the FOS looks different in Lester's 2. As for why it was destroyed before the date scene was shot.... I think the FOS scenes with Brando and Hackman were shot first (as well all know the story as to why). However, the scenes of Supes and Lois on their date would not have had Brando, so they were going to be shot later. However, this was probably before the decision was made to finish part 1 first. Once that decision was made, the set was re-used, and thus destroyed. Think about it. The Donner FOS scenes in the DC ALL have either Hackman or Brando in them. And the "date" scene was the only one that needed to be filmed. That and if Donner decided to film a post-scene after Supes loses his powers ("Just say you love me"). And the subsequent sex scene of course. Again, Brando wouldn't have been needed for these scene, and again, it wasn't shot since they figured they'd shoot it later. But again, they decided to finish part 1 instead. Think about the scene after Supes destroys the FOS where him and Lois talk. Reeve looks different. His hair is different, the cape hangs different, and his build is bigger. Margot's eyebrows are a different shape as well. This scene must've been shot later. Since Donner's mantra was to shoot all scenes on a set before tearing it down (As happened with the DP set) I wonder if Donner wanted re-writes for the Supes/Lois date scene and so left it to last, then production on Part II was stopped and they figured they would just rebuild the set later. I read an interview with Margot from Dec 1978 where she mentioned Superman and Lois have sex in the sequel and she had 6 months left of filming (though she thought it would end up being more) So it made me wonder about that scene and if she was saying they had filmed it or were getting ready to film it. Thanks for the info, too bad it was never filmed. |
|
