Superman II & Donner cut - Retrospective

[crazy_asian_man]

Since Donner's mantra was to shoot all scenes on a set before tearing it down (As happened with the DP set) I wonder if Donner wanted re-writes for the Supes/Lois date scene and so left it to last, then production on Part II was stopped and they figured they would just rebuild the set later.

I read an interview with Margot from Dec 1978 where she mentioned Superman and Lois have sex in the sequel and she had 6 months left of filming (though she thought it would end up being more) So it made me wonder about that scene and if she was saying they had filmed it or were getting ready to film it.

Thanks for the info, too bad it was never filmed.

The Time article I think had Margot talk about joking with Chevy Chase about the Mank-written scene were Supes/Lois are (suggestively) going to bed off-screen....but it doesn't say that they shot it.

I agree that the Honeymoon Haven scenes, the FOS date scenes, and the Houston sheriff's car scenes all seem pretty low hassle (relatively speaking) production-wise and presumed they got shot by Donner & was looking forward to seeing them on the RDC.

*oh well* ....

[supes81]

Aug 26, 2012 3:49:53 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Since Donner's mantra was to shoot all scenes on a set before tearing it down (As happened with the DP set) I wonder if Donner wanted re-writes for the Supes/Lois date scene and so left it to last, then production on Part II was stopped and they figured they would just rebuild the set later.

I read an interview with Margot from Dec 1978 where she mentioned Superman and Lois have sex in the sequel and she had 6 months left of filming (though she thought it would end up being more) So it made me wonder about that scene and if she was saying they had filmed it or were getting ready to film it.

Thanks for the info, too bad it was never filmed.

The Time article I think had Margot talk about joking with Chevy Chase about the Mank-written scene were Supes/Lois are (suggestively) going to bed off-screen....but it doesn't say that they shot it.

I agree that the Honeymoon Haven scenes, the FOS date scenes, and the Houston sheriff's car scenes all seem pretty low hassle (relatively speaking) production-wise and presumed they got shot by Donner & was looking forward to seeing them on the RDC.

*oh well* ....

The one I read was an AP interview that appeared in several newspapers, sorry it was from Aug 1978 and she said "The second film concerns the love story of Superman and Lois; this time they will finally do it" and sorry she said they had two months left to film, but she thought it would be longer.

Well honestly I would be happy with the RIC of II on Blu Ray, with that the theatrical and DC on Blu someone could put together a great version of the movie.

[TylerDurden389]

Aug 26, 2012 6:46:11 GMT -5 supes81 said:

Well honestly I would be happy with the RIC of II on Blu Ray, with that the theatrical and DC on Blu someone could put together a great version of the movie.

Throw in Selutron's clips in 1080p as well, and I'd say we're good to go. Even if he doesn't release his cut, just give us those clips in HD. Yeah I know he never did them in HD, but who knows. Maybe he's re-working his cut again using the new blu-ray sources right now.

As for what Donner didn't shoot, my current version of my fan edit of S2 does some great stuff with the Lester stuff in order to fix the tone. So a lot of the Lester stuff doesn't bother me anymore (what I used, anyway).

[crazy_asian_man]

Throw in Selutron's clips in 1080p as well, and I'd say we're good to go. Even if he doesn't release his cut, just give us those clips in HD. Yeah I know he never did them in HD, but who knows. Maybe he's re-working his cut again using the new blu-ray sources right now.

Selutron could re-do the stuff in HD that's available in HD (SII theatrical, RDC)--- but I don't think 'the Swarm' is on blu (yet)... so that would mean something possibly pretty jarring.... but then again, the deleted scenes on the RDC dvd are also in lower res, I think.

In any case, yeah, WB, please give us SOMETHING Donner-related for SII if you want our buck$ for the MOS tie-ins!

[crazy_asian_man]

The one I read was an AP interview that appeared in several newspapers, sorry it was from Aug 1978 and she said "The second film concerns the love story of Superman and Lois; this time they will finally do it" and sorry she said they had two months left to film, but she thought it would be longer.

That's interesting.... again, it's a pity that Donner wasn't able to squeeze out the lower-production heavy scenes before getting fired/quitting even if we couldn't get the Metro battle under his direction.

As far as the 'lovemaking scene' goes...

In the script, Supes leans over to Lois, and a few seconds are suggested off-camera in the Mank script. I think that would probably be the limit as far as how graphic it should be/should have been on-screen. (The other alternative was showing heading towards the uber-bed and then cut to unspecified time later, which I thought was smart of the theatrical version). Maybe I'm a prude, but just would feel weird to see anything more, (the fan the Superman costume on Lois is going close enough to the edge as it is imo....

While it's possible there were re-writes wanted first, I have a hunch that Donner might have kept the scenes involving just Reeve and Kidder for last on SII, thinking it easier production wise, once it was decided to focus just on finishing STM....

[dugpa]

I'm surprised no one ever asked Margot To confirm. She's very accessible when she does signing conventions.

[supes81]

Yeah, the only reason I thought Donner might have wanted a re-write was because the de-powering scene was filmed, and although that had Brando, he wasn't actually on set for that scene and wasn't needed to complete it, so it was in effect just Reeve and Kidder. So the fact they did that scene and not the preceding scenes in the FOS made me think there must have been a reason for it.

Then again it may have been Donner wanted to take his time with the date scenes in the FOS with Lois and Supes or they ran out of time before heading to NYC and Canada and intended to do them when they got back, but the decision to halt production I think was made during the location filming. Who knows, just always thought it strange that it was the only scene in Part II on that set that was never filmed under Donner.

I guess some things don't make sense, but it was a pretty chaotic filming experience. Like why Margot's close-ups for the de-powering scene weren't done, but close-ups of random office workers as well as Perry, Jimmy and Lois watching the metro battle were completed. Hackman nor a full DP set were needed for close-ups.

[Tristan D]

Aug 25, 2012 20:40:23 GMT -5 supes81 said:

Though in saying that, those scenes would make no sense in Donner's version, since it takes place the day after the end of the first one. The tone of both movies is different for a reason. It makes sense in Donner's for the love story to be somewhat lighthearted until Clark gives up his powers, while in Lester's Lois and Clark have known each other for a number of years and have created more of a bond.

Maybe. But in that instance, when Superman/Clark speaks to Jor-El and argues about giving up his powers vs serving humanity, it doesn't make dramatic sense for him to be complaining about lifelong servitude when he's been 'Superman' for probably a week / two weeks maximum. (There never seemed that much time between Supes' big first night and the execution of Lex's plot)

[crazy_asian_man]

Then again it may have been Donner wanted to take his time with the date scenes in the FOS with Lois and Supes or they ran out of time before heading to NYC and Canada and intended to do them when they got back, but the decision to halt production I think was made during the location filming. Who knows, just always thought it strange that it was the only scene in Part II on that set that was never filmed under Donner.

That's a great point. In looking back at the 'home movie'/date scenes in the script and the Lester alterations of the same scenes....

It looks like:
#1: it would have needed a separate smaller FOS set built ANYWAYS, from the way that it's staged in the script, than the sole huge one that Donner had shot in. (Presuming that the Donner set didn't have the upstairs bed/chamber as was made in the rebuilt set for Lester. The script has a makeshift kitchen created at the FOS for Lois to cook, and the 'home movies' scene has Supes/Lois sitting down watching them together.... doesn't look like the architecture would have worked as it was in STM).

-or-

#2: Maybe Donner did want to schedule more time for those scenes. In the making of, Donner looks like he's really going into detail over every second on the balcony scenes--- and it really shows at the end.

[crazy_asian_man]

Maybe. But in that instance, when Superman/Clark speaks to Jor-El and argues about giving up his powers vs serving humanity, it doesn't make dramatic sense for him to be complaining about lifelong servitude when he's been 'Superman' for probably a week / two weeks maximum. (There never seemed that much time between Supes' big first night and the execution of Lex's plot)

That's a great point. Even in the Mank scripts, there's no real hint or buildup to Supes' resentment. Even though he's corrected when asked by Jorel a second later... it suggests that Supes is just being an irritated child in his father's presence who is grasping at straws to try to win his argument.

Still... maybe he's felt this way even back when he was a teen, knowing that his physical strength would make it impossible to be with another person even in his Smallville days? While he wasn't burdened with the responsibilities of saving the world then, maybe that's where there might have been hidden resentment early on about being different/having to not be with anyone?

If viewing the two movies back to back (as was originally intended, I believe)- and without the time-reversal tagged at the end of the first one, I wonder if some of these bits like the servitude complaint would have overall felt more natural?

[atp]

The Donner Cut was crap and a scam

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 4, 2022 14:28:51 GMT -5 atp said:

The Donner Cut was crap and a scam

I think we all agree it was not great- for a zillion reasons. But, there are scenes and bits here and there I'm still glad I was able to see. There was no guarantee that we would have EVER had a chance to see it.

I remember just being really bummed and upset that the final result was not only underwhelming... but that it was less than (in a way) the extended tv cut!

But moreso that we really have zero idea whether or not Thau took the best takes or knew how to cut the scenes well.

So.... I can totally get anyone's anger and disappointment- but, at the same time, glad to at least see what we could see.... and want to see more.

[dejan]

Jul 8, 2022 23:46:54 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 4, 2022 14:28:51 GMT -5 atp said:

The Donner Cut was crap and a scam

I think we all agree it was not great- for a zillion reasons. But, there are scenes and bits here and there I'm still glad I was able to see. There was no guarantee that we would have EVER had a chance to see it.

I remember just being really bummed and upset that the final result was not only underwhelming... but that it was less than (in a way) the extended tv cut!

But moreso that we really have zero idea whether or not Thau took the best takes or knew how to cut the scenes well.

So.... I can totally get anyone's anger and disappointment- but, at the same time, glad to at least see what we could see.... and want to see more.

The famous Empire Of Dreams docu regarding how Star Wars was made is something I am pretty sure you fine folks have already seen before.
However, here is a quick refresher on how editing techniques literally transformed the film from it's rough cut version to what we all know and love today:

Goto 54:55 in vid:



Richard Chew , the editor, explicitly says:
"It was cut in a very traditional manner in just letting things play out in masters and then going into the coverage and let the actors rythms dicatate the cuts rather than have the cuts drive the rythm".


This really applies to the DC.

I love the opening frame with Perry reading off the headline from the paper.
But the minute he lands the newspaper on Lois's desk we needed close ups of the McClure and Kidder exchange:
"You know Miss Lane that's a great story , one of the best"  ect ect

Instead , the angle remains unchanged , draining the scene dialogue of any energy.
Indeed, we don't get the close up until Lois starts drawing.

Compare that to the corresponding Daily Planet sequence in STM when we are introduced to Lois:
When  she says:
"How many Ts in blood letting"

Jimmy responds by saying:
"2!"

And it's a close up!......as it needed to be.
It then zooms out to a wide angle shot as Jimmy continues:
"Golly Miss Lane , how come you get all the great stories!"

It was that dynamic interplay of masters and coverage that was done so well by Baird in STM.....that is missing in Thau's SII.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 9, 2022 6:35:56 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 8, 2022 23:46:54 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think we all agree it was not great- for a zillion reasons. But, there are scenes and bits here and there I'm still glad I was able to see. There was no guarantee that we would have EVER had a chance to see it.

I remember just being really bummed and upset that the final result was not only underwhelming... but that it was less than (in a way) the extended tv cut!

But moreso that we really have zero idea whether or not Thau took the best takes or knew how to cut the scenes well.

So.... I can totally get anyone's anger and disappointment- but, at the same time, glad to at least see what we could see.... and want to see more.

The famous Empire Of Dreams docu regarding how Star Wars was made is something I am pretty sure you fine folks have already seen before.
However, here is a quick refresher on how editing techniques literally transformed the film from it's rough cut version to what we all know and love today:

Goto 54:55 in vid:



Richard Chew , the editor, explicitly says:
"It was cut in a very traditional manner in just letting things play out in masters and then going into the coverage and let the actors rythms dicatate the cuts rather than have the cuts drive the rythm".


This really applies to the DC.

I love the opening frame with Perry reading off the headline from the paper.
But the minute he lands the newspaper on Lois's desk we needed close ups of the McClure and Kidder exchange:
"You know Miss Lane that's a great story , one of the best"  ect ect

Instead , the angle remains unchanged , draining the scene dialogue of any energy.
Indeed, we don't get the close up until Lois starts drawing.

Compare that to the corresponding Daily Planet sequence in STM when we are introduced to Lois:
When  she says:
"How many Ts in blood letting"

Jimmy responds by saying:
"2!"

And it's a close up!......as it needed to be.
It then zooms out to a wide angle shot as Jimmy continues:
"Golly Miss Lane , how come you get all the great stories!"

It was that dynamic interplay of masters and coverage that was done so well by Baird in STM.....that is missing in Thau's SII.

It'd be easier to give Thau the benefit of the doubt if he hadn't also swapped out better shots for worse alternate ones- though in an interview he had mentioned that sometimes a shot was in bad physical condition and had to be swapped out.... so, without looking at what was available.... who knows???

But--- I do wonder- how is it that we were able to get a widescreen blu ray of STM extended? Was it also going to originals recutting them or was a cut sitting on the side in widescreen already cut?

If it's the first, again and again I'm hoping the extended SII widescreen is sitting somewhere and WB finally releases it before the world collapses.

[Metallo]

Jul 9, 2022 6:35:56 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 8, 2022 23:46:54 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think we all agree it was not great- for a zillion reasons. But, there are scenes and bits here and there I'm still glad I was able to see. There was no guarantee that we would have EVER had a chance to see it.

I remember just being really bummed and upset that the final result was not only underwhelming... but that it was less than (in a way) the extended tv cut!

But moreso that we really have zero idea whether or not Thau took the best takes or knew how to cut the scenes well.

So.... I can totally get anyone's anger and disappointment- but, at the same time, glad to at least see what we could see.... and want to see more.

The famous Empire Of Dreams docu regarding how Star Wars was made is something I am pretty sure you fine folks have already seen before.
However, here is a quick refresher on how editing techniques literally transformed the film from it's rough cut version to what we all know and love today:

Goto 54:55 in vid:



Richard Chew , the editor, explicitly says:
"It was cut in a very traditional manner in just letting things play out in masters and then going into the coverage and let the actors rythms dicatate the cuts rather than have the cuts drive the rythm".


This really applies to the DC.

I love the opening frame with Perry reading off the headline from the paper.
But the minute he lands the newspaper on Lois's desk we needed close ups of the McClure and Kidder exchange:
"You know Miss Lane that's a great story , one of the best"  ect ect

Instead , the angle remains unchanged , draining the scene dialogue of any energy.
Indeed, we don't get the close up until Lois starts drawing.

Compare that to the corresponding Daily Planet sequence in STM when we are introduced to Lois:
When  she says:
"How many Ts in blood letting"

Jimmy responds by saying:
"2!"

And it's a close up!......as it needed to be.
It then zooms out to a wide angle shot as Jimmy continues:
"Golly Miss Lane , how come you get all the great stories!"

It was that dynamic interplay of masters and coverage that was done so well by Baird in STM.....that is missing in Thau's SII.

Yeah. Great doc. Lots of people have said Star Wars was saved in the editing room. Then Lucas had to go and mess that all up 20 years later.

But still lots of todays big movies could benefit from taking a page from the editing process on Star Wars. I look at many is the DC films and they just ruined them even more with bad editing.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 13, 2022 20:34:23 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 9, 2022 6:35:56 GMT -5 dejan said:

The famous Empire Of Dreams docu regarding how Star Wars was made is something I am pretty sure you fine folks have already seen before.
However, here is a quick refresher on how editing techniques literally transformed the film from it's rough cut version to what we all know and love today:

Goto 54:55 in vid:



Richard Chew , the editor, explicitly says:
"It was cut in a very traditional manner in just letting things play out in masters and then going into the coverage and let the actors rythms dicatate the cuts rather than have the cuts drive the rythm".


This really applies to the DC.

I love the opening frame with Perry reading off the headline from the paper.
But the minute he lands the newspaper on Lois's desk we needed close ups of the McClure and Kidder exchange:
"You know Miss Lane that's a great story , one of the best"  ect ect

Instead , the angle remains unchanged , draining the scene dialogue of any energy.
Indeed, we don't get the close up until Lois starts drawing.

Compare that to the corresponding Daily Planet sequence in STM when we are introduced to Lois:
When  she says:
"How many Ts in blood letting"

Jimmy responds by saying:
"2!"

And it's a close up!......as it needed to be.
It then zooms out to a wide angle shot as Jimmy continues:
"Golly Miss Lane , how come you get all the great stories!"

It was that dynamic interplay of masters and coverage that was done so well by Baird in STM.....that is missing in Thau's SII.

Yeah. Great doc. Lots of people have said Star Wars was saved in the editing room. Then Lucas had to go and mess that all up 20 years later.

But still lots of todays big movies could benefit from taking a page from the editing process on Star Wars. I look at many is the DC films and they just ruined them even more with bad editing.

As an aside on editing-

The current Thor: Love and Thunder had different main editors from Thor: Ragnarok- and I imagine suffered a big shift into TOO much comedy. In looking at scenes edited out of Thor: Ragnarok- I really want to give the Ragnarok editors even more credit.