Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 5, 2013 9:07:35 GMT -5
I went back and read some of the early reviews in this thread. Thought Verisimilitude's, Metallo's and Mark Waids reviews were all very good. I really want to enjoy this movie more but I just can’t get past the main issues that many critics seem to be having with this film. I‘ll say one of the scenes that really bothers me is when Superman drops the satellite in front of the military general. He tells General Swanwick that he's here to help but that it has to be on my terms and that Swanwick needs to trust him. Such trust has to be earned. How about a few scenes of Superman rescuing some people from all the destruction he and Zod inflicted on the people of earth as a start? Ditto. I can understand Superman's frustrations but taking a hardline stance against the government and military by displaying that kind of power might realistically make them MORE nervous. This is the US Governemnt after all. For a guy claiming to be so American your think Clark would know that and handle the situation little more delicately. |
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 5, 2013 9:21:33 GMT -5
Damn Jim, did you watch the movie with paper and pen?
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 5, 2013 11:03:41 GMT -5
The homo erectus skull codex was cool. I loved that.
For the kryptonians - a society 100000 years old- they are all about evolution and genetic engineering.
I thought it easy to infer that the skull was symbolic of primitive ancestors evolving into a "superior" kryptonian. The relic reminds them of their growth/evolution and it holds the information (mechanically inscribed) for the approved templates of their caste society. All of that is cool. Very john byrne.
The lost colonies of krypton- I don't see a plot hole here. Jor and Zod both talked about colonies being cut off from supplies from krypton.
If anything, I see a giant telegraph for sequels. When zod found one colony ghost town the skeletons were in armor and holding weapons= brainiac? Apokolips? Can't wait to see where that goes.
The battle of metropolis does sort of look like "revenge of the fallen"- but not nearly as much as avengers did. If the codex was a cube opening a portal for giant robot slugs then i'd concede that one. Lol!
As to perry and steve seeing lois kiss superman- in the originals didn't perry (and lex and others) see lois with superman all the time? Why is daily planet clark with glasses ok then and not now? I recall seasons 3 and 4 of "lois and clark" and my friends were all "how can anyone NOT know clark is superman? They don't even act different!" But that's always been the thing.
I'm glad that lois knows- take that off the table and I'm happy. But perry ? He always knew lois was hot for superman and he always worked with clark every day and it wasn't a "plot hole". But having said that- id like it if perry tacitly admits he knows (as I suspected he did in "lois and clark") and is part of superman's cover. Like how batman had lucious and alfred in on it the whole time.
As to superman "earning" the trust of the gov- it goes both ways. This superman lives in an america that spies on its own citizens, uses predator drones on citizens, conducts proxy wars, is instituitonally corrupt, and inept. And they want to track his every move? Nah- I like that it isn't all "gee superman, we're all cool now". Some people will never trust superman- some already adore him. Luthor is going to play that up for sure.
Good review jim. I agree with some of what you said, though obviously I rate it higher. Lol
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Jul 5, 2013 11:20:38 GMT -5
They'll ignore it for sure. It'll prob be set a few years later when CK has settled in.
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Post by Paul (ral) on Jul 5, 2013 13:44:21 GMT -5
Clark goes out looking for some hint at his heritage based on nothing more than Jonathan saying "Somewhere out there you have another father..."
The fact that he knows he's from another planet would hardly inspire him to look answers on Earth. And if he was looking for answers on Earth wouldn't the ship he arrived in (which he has a key for but never thinks to put it in the key shaped hole) be the first place he would look?
And with all Jor-El's advanced holographic consciousness could a message not have played on the ship when it landed on Earth?
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 5, 2013 18:54:52 GMT -5
Clark goes out looking for some hint at his heritage based on nothing more than Jonathan saying "Somewhere out there you have another father..." The fact that he knows he's from another planet would hardly inspire him to look answers on Earth. And if he was looking for answers on Earth wouldn't the ship he arrived in (which he has a key for but never thinks to put it in the key shaped hole) be the first place he would look? And with all Jor-El's advanced holographic consciousness could a message not have played on the ship when it landed on Earth? But in this regard it verbatum what the original did- only changed cosmetically. - sees the craft that brought him - has a key/crystal - feels impelled to move north - Jor-El ONLY appears AFTER clark has done "the journey" Its all in the embedded subtext. MOS is the most sci-fi heavy version of superman to date. If we'd have him join SETI or NASA and the ghost of Jor raise him along with the Kents I think it would deviate from the source too much. Imo |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 19:11:48 GMT -5
Yeah you could turn around and say "Surely Jor-El could have done this or that" in practically every incarnation of Superman.
I mean the big one you always get from people is that they were this highly intelligent race yet failed to realize they're planet was on the way out and evacuate in time.
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 5, 2013 19:47:33 GMT -5
I feel the over analyzing of Man of Steel is bringing out the logical flaws in Superman lore in general, which that in itself is sooooo contradicting over enjoying other mediums of Superman stories. Before you know it, someone is going to complain about how Clark realizes he can fly later in his life instead of during his childhood.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 5, 2013 19:52:58 GMT -5
Exxxxaaaaaaaaaaactly.
We have rockets and sattelites and internet and cars and generally speaking affordable food and laws and infrastructure- but we also have crime disease poverty rape murder etc etc.
So yeah- krypton coulda shoulda this and that...
So when superman says "krypton had its chance" its kinda like...uuuuhhh yeah you did. Ironic that crowe played a similar contextual character in gladiator.
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 5, 2013 20:14:21 GMT -5
And this illustrates why nobody can make a great Superman movie.
Nobody knows what to do with him anymore.
It ain't about logic, it's about feeling and getting te character right.
Ad they haven't gotten te character right in the last 2 films because they're trying to make Superman something he's not: sad, introspective and brooding.
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 5, 2013 20:30:20 GMT -5
It is about logic, though. Mostly everyone who has been very critical of this movie have pointed out nearly every logical flaw. The consensus here is not about Cavill's portrayal of Superman. Everyone likes him and feels he should've had more to do. But everything else is narrative dissections concerning its logic....which is fine. That's how one is critical, but it's been overdone to the point where it's the lore of Superman that's being criticized for having logical flaws.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 5, 2013 20:42:27 GMT -5
Every mythos has that weakness though.
Which is why one is either a believer or a heretic.
But I disagree with enrique on this, "superman returns" and "man of steel" are effective portraits of superman. They each focus and anchor on a particular element of superman- as would any individual comic book or episode of a series.
We have, almost all of us, conceded that STM is a beloved fantasy classic- but if we aimed the same scrutiny and ruthlessness and subtracted our sentimental forgiving disposition we would have to knock it down a bit here and there.
So, STM/SR/MOS are all flawed but have various aspects that speak to the craving of a fan of superman fans who follow the character through all media over many many years.
Charming but hoaky?
Dramatic and romantic?
Balls out action romp?
We have all that in these flicks. As a superman fan I'm happy as heck.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 5, 2013 21:06:15 GMT -5
It's not a logical flaw in the mythos when Superman is involved in a fight or in an attack that causes massive MASSIVE damage and then doesn't seem to care about it. That's called piss poor writing. Then the film skips ahead to gloss over said damage so they don't have to deal with it even though the film was SOLD on the effects beings like this arriving would have on the word. If anything the mythos has always addressed Superman's feelings of responsibility when it came to the sheer awesomeness of his powers and what they could lead to on a battle. The flaw is that David Goyer is a mediocre writer. Always has been. That's nothing new or the fault of fans being overly critical.
And when the filmmakers themselves embrace realism and the real world as part of their creative strategy they shouldn't expect their film to be immune to such criticism.
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Post by Paul (ral) on Jul 5, 2013 21:29:34 GMT -5
Clark goes out looking for some hint at his heritage based on nothing more than Jonathan saying "Somewhere out there you have another father..." The fact that he knows he's from another planet would hardly inspire him to look answers on Earth. And if he was looking for answers on Earth wouldn't the ship he arrived in (which he has a key for but never thinks to put it in the key shaped hole) be the first place he would look? And with all Jor-El's advanced holographic consciousness could a message not have played on the ship when it landed on Earth? But in this regard it verbatum what the original did- only changed cosmetically. - sees the craft that brought him - has a key/crystal - feels impelled to move north - Jor-El ONLY appears AFTER clark has done "the journey" Yeah but in STM it's implied that the green crystal told him on a subconscious level to go north. It tells him where to throw it. Jor-El can only appear once the "tech" has been created on Earth via the green crystal. The ship STM's Clark arrives in is a husk. A sheck that no longer has a function, whereas in MOS its still operational to an extent. |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Jul 5, 2013 21:36:58 GMT -5
Y'know- if bruce wayne wanted to fight crime so bad, he should have just donated all that tech to gotham PD and been done. Why all this globe trotting to be a ninja? Pffft.
And how does superman show he "cares" about the destruction of metropolis?
Beat up a trucker?
Fly a flag to the white house?
Give lois amnesia?
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jul 5, 2013 21:37:09 GMT -5
You guys expect too much with the comic book heroes in a real world dynamic. Real life logic is very hard to bring in a movie, even when it's a regular drama. But in a comic book movie? Everything has to be covered. I understand some of the arguments and some are good points, but at the end of the day, it's not going to take away the fun I personally had from watching the movie.
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Post by Paul (ral) on Jul 6, 2013 4:22:59 GMT -5
I had fun watching it too (seen it 3 times now) and yes we can all pick holes in ALL of our favourite movies...but I'm of the opinion that if we don't critique the writing of current movies we can't expect the writers to up their game for the next installments.
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 4:52:52 GMT -5
But in this regard it verbatum what the original did- only changed cosmetically. - sees the craft that brought him - has a key/crystal - feels impelled to move north - Jor-El ONLY appears AFTER clark has done "the journey" Yeah but in STM it's implied that the green crystal told him on a subconscious level to go north. It tells him where to throw it. Jor-El can only appear once the "tech" has been created on Earth via the green crystal. It's kind of hard to explain, but it ... um ... it called to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 5:23:57 GMT -5
'it called to me' is used in SII.
In STM as a stand alone I personally never saw any reason for him to go north and throw the crystal, that to me is the kind of thing that was a big convenience and the kind of thing MOS would have been slated for. Same as the notion that he was in the fortress and 12 years had suddenly passed with him reappearing in a suit that bore no resemblance whatsoever to anything on Krypton previously in the film. Was the '12 of your years will have passed' part a lazy way of getting the story from teenage clark to 30 year old Superman Clark?
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 6, 2013 5:36:18 GMT -5
This is fantasy! You wanted adventure, how's this? Got the adrenaline going? So get in the closet!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 6:04:28 GMT -5
So I'm guessing by that butt hurt retort you agree with me?  |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2013 6:20:11 GMT -5
Well, yes, in one sense, it is a lazy way of doing it.
But then again, the use of Jor-El's speech and the Williams music does give the sense of time passing.
I never really had a problem believing that 12 years passed even though it only took less than 3 minutes in the movie.
And of course, the thrill for audiences of seeing Reeve in the suit and then flying towards the camera probably left no time to wonder about the whole 12 years thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 6:27:13 GMT -5
It never bothered me either, I quite like the way it worked, but lets be honest if MOS had something like that in the story the usual suspects would be chomping at the bit to slate it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 8:21:55 GMT -5
You guys expect too much with the comic book heroes in a real world dynamic. Real life logic is very hard to bring in a movie, even when it's a regular drama. But in a comic book movie? Everything has to be covered. I understand some of the arguments and some are good points, but at the end of the day, it's not going to take away the fun I personally had from watching the movie. Then maybe they shouldn't have taken a real world dynamic with MOS. Is that their fault our ours? I don't think anyone forced them to do that. Dont promis shit you arent going to bother delivering on or half assing and they half assed certain things in this movie. The movie has a bunch of holes both logical and character related that certain apologists would be all over with movies they didn't like so much. When other filmmakers say their film is a fantasy or has a certain level of verisimilitude they aren't trying to sell it as the real world. Certain leaps can be taken. They never promised anything else. MOS was made buy guys who never should have made such big claims when they couldn't back it up. If you are going to make a comic book movie make it comic book. Dont suck the comic book fun and flare out of it so much then complain when people start to look seriously at your serious real world movie. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2013 8:24:24 GMT -5
Y'know- if bruce wayne wanted to fight crime so bad, he should have just donated all that tech to gotham PD and been done. Why all this globe trotting to be a ninja? Pffft. And how does superman show he "cares" about the destruction of metropolis? Beat up a trucker? Fly a flag to the white house? Give lois amnesia? Suck face with a girl surrounded by the twisted remains of thousands of dead? Fly through IHOPS? |
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