Man of Steel - *Spoilers*

[Keith]

Jun 14, 2013 13:16:15 GMT -5 Paul (ral) said:

Jun 14, 2013 12:40:27 GMT -5 Keith said:

I could have sworn they, for a split second or two put Reeve's face over Cavill's when Supes was under that ship that was pushing out that gravity beam things.. When it showed the close up of his face, I swear Reeve was there, even Cassie noticed it.

I noticed it on Monday. It still stood out this morning. My wife also saw it. It's like a flash.

I spoke to Jim Bowers about it cause I thought it was the cameo he was talking about...obviously it wasn't.

He is going to see it tonight. Will be interesting to hear his thoughts.

Nice to know that I'm not the only one that seen it lol. Thought I my eyes were really playing tricks on me.

[Deleted]

I loved the stuff on Krypton. Thought it was all very well done and sending Kal-El off was a very emotive part. I thought the whole design, all the Kryptonian technology was really well done. Russell Crowe was just fantastic.

The way the the story jumps back and forward between flash backs, and cuts to Clark on a fishing boat immediately after his ship landing on earth did feel a bit strange.

The decision to alter the death of Jonathan Kent was interesting, and very powerful the way it played out. Was extremely hard to watch!

I also enjoyed the prick trucker leaving the diner to find his truck wrecked! I thought Diane Lane was fantastic and I loved her trying to calm Clark down in the school, thought it was good the way they showed us Clark getting scared and freaked out about his senses, being able to x-ray his classmates and teacher.

I loved the reveal and the fact he actually had to learn how to fly, the excitement he had when he realized he could fly.

I honestly think all this 'no heart' stuff is bollocks, but I think the film has itself to blame in a sense, I think the last 3rd is so intense and so action packed it's easier to forget what went before it, and there was some great stuff.

You know I always knew Cavill was a big guy in this film, but it didn't even hit me how big until the end when he and Martha were standing at Pa Kent's grave, the guy was huge. Loved the ending where he arrives at the Daily Planet, thought it was a great way to end it.

The films definitely got flaws, the pacing and structure are off, but seeing Superman utilize his powers the way he does, and seeing some of the tender moments, and seeing the cast in general put in such great performances......it all made it worth while for me.

[Deleted]

On the Pa Kent death part.

As much as it was moving, I'm still not comfortable with the idea. Clark wouldn't go back and get the dog? he waited and obeyed his dad when he gave the signal to let him die? It's one of those things that will bother me over time.

[Deleted]

Yeah, obviously Clark should've gotten the dog and Jonathan take the kid and Martha under the overpass, but...that wouldn't have been as dramatic.

[Deleted]

True. But they could have kept a lot of people off their backs if they had been a bit smarter about some of this stuff.

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2013 3:44:16 GMT -5 @shinymarble3000 said:

I know the death of Zod is controversial, but to me it's one of the moments that made this version of Superman. Yes, he kills; but for all the speculation over what he could have done, I think the scene sold the idea that he was being forced to make a terrible choice. It was either let Zod kill innocents, or kill Zod to save innocents. Superman does what he has to- what he's forced to do- and it tears him up inside. To see Superman cry out in anguish, even when he was given one of the clearest moral choices you can imagine, shows his compassion and respect for life in a way that's more meaningful than saving a kitten from a tree. Any ordinary person would have made that choice and slept like a baby; for Superman, it's torturous. His respect for life runs that deep. When he embraces Lois, hunched on his knees, he seems almost child-like; as if he accidentally killed a bird with a slingshot. There's a naive innocence there that, to me, cuts to the heart of the character and demonstrates what they're trying to accomplish with this take. I'm not sure how I feel about what they're trying to accomplish quite yet- this film seemed dead set on putting Superman in positions where he clearly has to decide who lives and who dies, with no third option- but I'll leave that discussion for tomorrow.

Boom. Nailed it. Word for word.

[eccentricbeing]

The language of the movie is a bit unusual. I've come to the conclusion that the flashbacks serve more as an "in the moment" memory snippet of Clark, which explains why don't have an arc behind them. Like, let's say, Batman Begins flashbacks. These snippets are to explain motives that challenge Clark in the natural story arc. Telling the story like this makes characters that are in the "flashback" feel less fleshed out. It's a good thing that the performances were excellent or else this technique would've been HORRIBLE. Once you tune yourself to the way it tells its story, the dramatic structure becomes clear. I still don't find it to be a good way of storytelling because the movie should be understood and engaging (for the most part) on your first viewing.

I found that the action wasn't exhausting the second time around and it's not because I anticipated it either. I think it's because I originally didn't feel the momentum leading up to it. For the most part, the big action doesn't kick in until over an hour into the movie when Faora and Zod threaten Ma Kent. And the action DOES break up in small moments, which I didn't notice before. I'm attributing my negative experience to my seating in the theater and the headache was starting to develop, I guess. I don't know.

What also helped in setting my mood right for the movie was the score. It's so good. Like...the whole album is good. I don't skip tracks. Sometimes, Zimmer has filler tracks, but all of the tracks fit a certain mood.

As long as they bring in Luthor to clean up ground zero and rebuild in the sequel, the collateral damage done in this one won't be as over the top. But watching the movie again, ground zero wasn't as wide as I thought. I mean, it's big, but maybe a few blocks and a stadium wide.

[Deleted]

Was gonna say eccentric, the destruction isn't as much as I had imagined.

I can see why some people have bigger problems with the film, I really do, it's just the constant comparing it with the earlier films that bugs me.

I'm thinking if they do get a sequel they need to bring in someone to work with Goyer, the story and structure is just a bit too flawed for me. The sequel should have build up to big moments, more extended dialogue etc etc.

[atp]

Superman breaking Zod's neck and then screaming at what he has done was taken from the Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris fight in Way of the Dragon.

[Jack Tripper]

Thoughts after my second viewing...


I still have my disappointments but it was better the second time.

I still don't like how thousands of people died in the destruction of Metropolis and it's never even mentioned. The ending was a little too upbeat. Superman shouldn't have been so cavalier. He at least should've said something or made a statement to the public about all the death and destruction. He should've apologized since it was his being on earth that helped facilitate all the mayhem.

Speaking of casualties, Superman definitely had a hand in some of those deaths as he was very careless when fighting the Kryptonians. He needlessly flew through buildings and crashed into everything when he didn't have to. I understand this was done just so we the audience could SEE SHIT BLOW UP but it got out of hand. There should of been a scene or two of him saving more people specifically during the Smallville battle. It would've been cool to see him race to save people one by one while fighting off Faora and the big dude. That would've created a sense of much needed urgency. When you see building after building fall but show no consequences it becomes dull.

There were no holy shit! or wow! moments. There were definitely some cool parts but nothing that makes you wanna go back to a specific scene and watch it over and over again. Take for example Bruce Banner turning into the Hulk just in time to take down that warship in the Avengers or the helicopter rescue in the original Superman. This is a reintroduction to Superman. He can do practically anything. Showcase that.

After my first viewing, I was really against the idea of Superman killing Zod. After all, that's not how he operates. I pretty much got over it in the second viewing. Superman saw there was no alternative. It was either kill Zod or risk the chance of him killing more innocent people. Zod wasn't going to stop. He made that clear. He and his gang practically leveled the city so Superman figured enough was enough. I'm cool with it now. Plus Superman was obviously pretty upset by it as he's killed the last of his kind. Perhaps from this dismay will come the no killing rule. He is still learning to be Superman after all.

As others have mentioned, I have to pick on the narrative. I feel it should've been told linear, from beginning to end with no use of flashbacks. I think the scenes with young Clark/Smallville lose most of their impact and emotion when you keep cutting back and forth between the present and past. It doesn't give the audience any time to absorb the emotion of the scenes. There is no buildup. My complaint lies specifically with the death of Jonathan. It felt off to show his death, go to the present and then cut back to another Smallville scene with him still alive. I think they should've kept it linear up until the very end where Clark and Martha visit the grave. The flashback scene with Clark putting the cape on and his Dad watching, that was perfectly placed. That's the only flashback I would've had in the entire movie.

[Jor-L5150]

Caught something this time I cannot belive I missed the first time- and it totally helps me get the 2nd act way way better-

Clark was ON the (don't say on the bus) ON the helicopter with lois when she got to the site! HE helped her off the helicopter! I didn't pay attention to that element at all.

That totally smooths over how clark was just roaming the mountain in such proximity to lois!
I caught that he heard the soldiers talking about the "maguffin" and so he goes off after it as part of his search...

Didn't catch the bridging element the first time. I won't change my rating because my initial 4/5 was all heat of the moment.

Goddamn I hope this banks. I gotta have more cavill!

[Deleted]

It was kind of weird seeing Gaeta and Helo hanging out there. How often does that happen, two actors from a well-known TV show playing different characters in a completely separate film, without it being referenced in some way? One "frack!" would've done the job.

Huge missed opportunity, ruined the film for me.

[Valentine Smith]

Jun 14, 2013 12:40:27 GMT -5 Keith said:

I could have sworn they, for a split second or two put Reeve's face over Cavill's when Supes was under that ship that was pushing out that gravity beam things.. When it showed the close up of his face, I swear Reeve was there, even Cassie noticed it.

That bit reminded me SO much of the part in STM where he's pushing up the San Andreas fault...which is one of the best Superman shots ever put on film. I DEFINITELY thought Reeve in that moment, too!

[Jack Tripper]

Jun 14, 2013 12:40:27 GMT -5 Keith said:

I could have sworn they, for a split second or two put Reeve's face over Cavill's when Supes was under that ship that was pushing out that gravity beam things.. When it showed the close up of his face, I swear Reeve was there, even Cassie noticed it.

the scene with Cavill on his hands and knees after him and Zod crashed through 7-11, the profile view of Cavill looked so much like Dean Cain to me and then toward the end with Daily Planet Clark, he looked like Tom Welling.. it was weird that I was seeing all of the previous Superman actors in Cavill.

I know the exact moment you're talking about. I read your post after seeing the midnight showing so when I saw it again today I looked out for it. It's a closeup shot with Cavill looking up. In that moment he looks 90% like Reeve.

[crazy_asian_man]

Just came back from watching an evening showing of it on the supersize screen in town....
Some GREAT stuff.... but a lot I didn't care for at all.
The general feeling I get is similar to my experience with Spiderman 3- it feels like two movies crunched into one movie, at the expense of enough buildup and character moments.

Would love to see an extended version of this- but as is..... I feel the whole movie feels truncated, as if edited by Michael Thau.
Looks like some great stuff there, but... maybe I'll feel different with a second viewing.

[Deleted]

It didn't feel as crammed or messy the second time. It definitely put a lot in there, though. The way the movie is edited is jarring the first time around as it's nothing we're used to with Superman, really, so maybe if you see it again knowing how it's arranged, it won't be so offputting.

[atp]

So, who in the movie doesn't know his identity?

[Deleted]

Fewer than the number who know Bruce is Batman by the end of Begins.

BB
Alfred, obviously
Fox
Rachel
Ra's, but he died.
At least the half dozen members of the League of Shadows that crashes the party, and it's not exactly clear what happened to them. Likely apprehended.

MOS
Martha, duh
Lois
Zod, Faora, but do they really give a shit? Besides, they died.
Maybe Perry, Lombard, and Jenny, but they saw him with Lois at a distance so I think the jury may be out. The way the final scene played, only Lois showed obvious recognition. Lombard, Perry, and Jenny appeared pretty clueless. I'd say the military didn't know, given the scene where he downs the drone, though he stupidly admits to being from Kansas. That was a dumbass move.

So, less.

[atp]

There were also a couple of cops that brought Lois to the Kent house. So they probably know. Not to mention all the people that Lois interviewed on her way to tracking him down.

I have to say, I wasn't that impressed with his Daily Planet disguise. He just looks like Superman wearing glasses.

I was also really disappointed in Zod. For months, we have been hearing about how Zod was this nuanced, multilayered villain and who was even a sympathetic character. I was expecting someone like Ed Harris in The Rock or Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide. But in the end, Zod was just basically Drax from Moonraker.

[crazy_asian_man]

It didn't feel as crammed or messy the second time. It definitely put a lot in there, though. The way the movie is edited is jarring the first time around as it's nothing we're used to with Superman, really, so maybe if you see it again knowing how it's arranged, it won't be so offputting.

It's certainly possible- the pacing of STM initially felt a little weird, too, on first viewing (though not nearly as weird as MOS).... so I'll defnitely give it that.
I wish that there was already an extended version available to view now- There's a lot of promising ideas and bits in the film that I feel just never got a chance to breathe, possibly through editing or underwriting. Hard to know, but definitely want to view this one more time.

[Knight]

First viewing last night and I loved it. I like the flashbacks to and from, discovering his abilities like that during class was excellent! The introduction to Lana Lang too, I also like how Lois knows who Superman is. She had to really, being the reporter she is with her credentials. The fight scenes and use of powers were great, loved how he took a few leaps before actually flying. I knew he'd bump off Zod like that and I was shocked!! That one rule isn't it? But then again as previously mentioned, Supes/Zod in SII...

Noticed the Lexcorp oil tankers and building later on in the film. Anyone else notice the Wayne Enterprises logo on that satellite in space?

I watched Russell Crowe as Jor-El but couldn't help but think Brando as he addressed the Counsel. Loved how Costner held up his hand 'no!' to Clark during the storm, fantastic! Pa Kent is Superman but without the powers, I've always thought this. I mean, he ran into that storm... The part when he got weak as a result of growing up on Earth while on board Zod's ship, spitting blood, that was cool.



I TOTALLY got how much Cavill looked like Chris during the close up of 'white light' bit, before he flys up. I got the Welling vibe to in the Daily Planet, I'm cool with that.


I kind of chuckled when Clark was on his bike and tie flapping over his shoulder, haha! Great.
How cool was the ending from the trailer, young Clark with the red blanket over his shoulders. Totally iconic. I loved it, beautiful!

Am looking forward to seeing it again.

[Deleted]

Thinking on it more, I can understand why it's hard to compare the new film with the old film: it's a different point of view.

In "Superman," the filmmakers presented the standard, start-to-finish narrative in which nearly every facet was shown. Kal-El/Clark/Superman as a character is featured in maybe 60-65 percent of the film. He has virtually no presence during the Krypton scenes, which are about 20-30 minutes of screen time. He is absent during the introduction of Lex, Miss Tessmacher, and Otis. He is again absent in the scenes in which the trio screw with the XK-101 rockets, etc. Having Clark immediately turn up as a Planet employee cuts down on his time in the costume (which I think is all some fans really care about), so I'd say quote-Superman-quote is in the film even less than the mentioned 60-65 percent.

In "Superman Returns," it's the same because of the linear storytelling method, which features many scenes without the character and a more omniscient point of view. I won't go into further details since most of you fucking hate that movie anyway.

In "Man of Steel," once the opening Krypton scenes are done, perhaps 15-20 minutes later, we get Kal/Clark/Superman and he is in nearly every shot from here on. The benefit of the non-linear form of storytelling is we get him, particularly Cavill, much earlier in this movie. Aside from two Lois/Perry scenes and the final Zod/Jor-El banter, this is completely his movie. His time in Smallville is shown through his own memories and recollections. Even Zod's explanation of how he got to Earth was shown as Zod creeping into an unconscious Kal's mind and showing him how he got to Earth. We're practically seeing this movie through Superman's eyes. I'd say he's in 85 percent of this film, whether it's Cavill or the kid playing the part. I also can rationalize that this point of view is why we don't have the scenes of a first big rescue and people gawking in the street. We're not seeing the movie from their point of view, we're seeing it from Kal's. (Plus, really, the whole "up in the sky" thing is so corny. Really glad the filmmakers didn't shoe-horn in another tired trope of the franchise.)

So, while not all will appreciate the non-linear storyline, it's fine with me.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2013 3:38:18 GMT -5 atp said:

There were also a couple of cops that brought Lois to the Kent house. So they probably know. Not to mention all the people that Lois interviewed on her way to tracking him down.

I have to say, I wasn't that impressed with his Daily Planet disguise. He just looks like Superman wearing glasses.

I was also really disappointed in Zod. For months, we have been hearing about how Zod was this nuanced, multilayered villain and who was even a sympathetic character. I was expecting someone like Ed Harris in The Rock or Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide. But in the end, Zod was just basically Drax from Moonraker.

Cavill is incredible as Superman though.

Fine. Whatever. At least you're bitching about something new.

[atp]

Jun 15, 2013 7:22:30 GMT -5 @bamabrad said:

Thinking on it more, I can understand why it's hard to compare the new film with the old film: it's a different point of view.

In "Superman," the filmmakers presented the standard, start-to-finish narrative in which nearly every facet was shown. Kal-El/Clark/Superman as a character is featured in maybe 60-65 percent of the film. He has virtually no presence during the Krypton scenes, which are about 20-30 minutes of screen time. He is absent during the introduction of Lex, Miss Tessmacher, and Otis. He is again absent in the scenes in which the trio screw with the XK-101 rockets, etc. Having Clark immediately turn up as a Planet employee cuts down on his time in the costume (which I think is all some fans really care about), so I'd say quote-Superman-quote is in the film even less than the mentioned 60-65 percent.

In "Superman Returns," it's the same because of the linear storytelling method, which features many scenes without the character and a more omniscient point of view. I won't go into further details since most of you fucking hate that movie anyway.

In "Man of Steel," once the opening Krypton scenes are done, perhaps 15-20 minutes later, we get Kal/Clark/Superman and he is in nearly every shot from here on. The benefit of the non-linear form of storytelling is we get him, particularly Cavill, much earlier in this movie. Aside from two Lois/Perry scenes and the final Zod/Jor-El banter, this is completely his movie. His time in Smallville is shown through his own memories and recollections. Even Zod's explanation of how he got to Earth was shown as Zod creeping into an unconscious Kal's mind and showing him how he got to Earth. We're practically seeing this movie through Superman's eyes. I'd say he's in 85 percent of this film, whether it's Cavill or the kid playing the part. I also can rationalize that this point of view is why we don't have the scenes of a first big rescue and people gawking in the street. We're not seeing the movie from their point of view, we're seeing it from Kal's. (Plus, really, the whole "up in the sky" thing is so corny. Really glad the filmmakers didn't shoe-horn in another tired trope of the franchise.)

So, while not all will appreciate the non-linear storyline, it's fine with me.

Once he appears in costume though (in MOS), he doesn't actually do anything to establish himself to the people of earth. They should have given him more time as the costumed Superman, winning people over, before Zod arrives.

The way it is, the people of earth have no reason to care about this "Kal-El" person that Zod is looking for.

[Deleted]

I think Zod threatening to fuck shit up is plenty reason for people to care who Kal-El is.

Here's how it plays out to me: Kal finds the ship, talks to daddy, finds his costume, learns to fly a bit, decides to go home and see Martha to tell her about what he's learned. He didn't immediately jump into "I'm going to go around in this blue suit and cape and save a bunch of folk" because he's still struggling with Jonathan's fear that people still aren't ready for him. We heard that from the man's own mouth as he explained it to Lois, also revealing how Jonathan went to his grave rather than have Kal reveal his true nature at a young age. Later that night, Zod shows up because he activated the ship and unknowingly got their attention. Thus, Zod's appearance forces his hand into appearing to the military first to show the country's leaders that he is cooperative and not an evil alien invader. He doesn't have time to go saving cats from trees.

Makes sense to me.