Which Superman film is the most watchable to you?

[crazy_asian_man]

Given the context of the film at that moment when Superman finds Lois dead I can buy into the idea that he turns back time. However the lack of consequences for his actions remain a letdown and perhaps that would have been improved upon had Donner properly finished Superman II as Selutron has suggested.

I agree that the lack of ANY consequences is/was a letdown.... But one thing that 's been a blessing and curse for Donner's films have been oftentimes forced happy endings that often make zero sense to whatever came previously in the film.

Examples: Radio Flyer-ridiculous happy ending; Assassins-dumb ending; Conspiracy Theory and Maverick- two really silly endings to otherwise good films. All Donner-directed.

So.... Although I of course wish Donner finished SII, I think there were some things he would have let pass--- Especially if he were forced to meet the release dates in time.

One of which being any addressing of the time reversal.... It was a carryover from the original Puzo script--- and I'd LIKE to think they would have addressed it.... But with all the scenes that were left to shoot (especially if they had to recast Brando), I have only a hunch that they probably would have had enough on their hands just shooting what was already scripted---given the huge scale the Mank's version was, let alone changing the script more to accommodate the switch of time reversal from SII to STM.

Also- No evidence, but I think Donner would have gone with Reeve's idea for a 'memory kiss' over Mank's suggestion.... Being that Donner had no problem with Lois's "Can you read my mind" song in STM....but shot in a way that didn't look so terribly cheap as did the theatrical. Also that Mank/Donner didn't discuss any other alternatives they were excited about the time the RDC came out.

On another note, couldn't agree with you more---- without the Donner footage, Lester completely shooting SII would have been pretty bland/bad.The basic story is interesting enough to carry it--- even if cheaply shot.... but Lester/Victor-Smith is by far not even close to the same league as is the Donner-Baird team.

[Jor-L5150]

strangely, the films i enjoy the least are SII and SII RDC.

i'm just too too burned out on them. during that wasteland of development heck between SIV and SR a lot of us got obsessed over SII.

and conversely, i have learned to LOVE SIII. i just do love it. it's terrible. but its so so bad its good. and it actually does have its moments.

mrs jor loves SR the best (for the metropolis production design, the wardrobe, routh himself and certainly the music). the ladies at my house have been known to put in SR JUST to hear the music while someone is reading, or making dinner or whatever.

for me, STM, SR, SIII.

i cannot fathom the cruel devices that would compel me to watch SIV again. ever.

[Ollie W]

Jan 29, 2013 1:39:04 GMT -5 Shane said:

wow ollie welcome back mate

Thanks Shane.

Jan 29, 2013 4:07:09 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I agree that the lack of ANY consequences is/was a letdown.... But one thing that 's been a blessing and curse for Donner's films have been oftentimes forced happy endings that often make zero sense to whatever came previously in the film.

Examples: Radio Flyer-ridiculous happy ending; Assassins-dumb ending; Conspiracy Theory and Maverick- two really silly endings to otherwise good films. All Donner-directed.

Don't forget 16 Blocks. The happy ending in that film was far inferior to the alternate ending on the DVD.

[Knight]

I have a LOT more time for Superman III now, the start in the daily planet is great, saving a drowning man in a car, the chemical plant disaster, Smallville, Lana Lang's cannons in that yellow dress and of course Superman being baaad!

SIV I have warmed to, there's a lot from Chris Reeve which I love. The double date, Smallville, being CK in the daily planet, (stands up, bangs knee on table. We've all done it!). his reaction to the 'Superman says drop dead to kid' headline, UN address and the press conference speech too. It's Superman after all...

[crazy_asian_man]

I have a LOT more time for Superman III now, the start in the daily planet is great, saving a drowning man in a car, the chemical plant disaster, Smallville, Lana Lang's cannons in that yellow dress and of course Superman being baaad!

I'm glad that Reeve's work in all the films are remembered/appreciated--- and I don't want to sound like a grumpy old guy, but-

I think I wouldn't have been as irritated with Lester's filmmaking if S3 didn't already have a giant standard of quality for their action sequences set by STM ---as well as having had Raiders of the Lost Ark come out not too long before it to really show how to push action sequences to the hilt. Also, S3 seemed to have full backing, unlike poor S4 which seemed doomed right out of the starting gate.

[Deleted]

I'd say 3, mostly for Richard Pryor. I really dig some of those early 80s comedies. The others have worn out. I tried to get the set out recently and put it back within 20 minutes to watch something else. I've simply watched these to death. Probably best to put them away for a few years.

[Ollie W]

So I watched Superman II the Richard Donner cut last night. I hadn’t watched it in over five years and this was only the third time I’d seen it and the first time on Blu Ray.

Seemingly it held up better than I remembered. The hardest thing about watching the Donner cut is excepting Donner’s scenes (which a lot of the time are unfinished), over scenes from a completed film. However this time around I found myself more immersed in the film rather than complaining about what was put in and what was left out. Simply put I was able to watch it as an alternate version rather than a better version.

The new Reeve and Brando scenes still give me chills and the new or added Lois and Clark footage is generally lovely and fun to watch. Non's a better character without all his childish grunts and the lack of silliness in the Metropolis and Fortress battles is well received.

Now you could write a book about stuff wrong with the Donner cut but at the ‘bare minimum’ the following should have been fixed before release.

- The cheap background plates during the pre-title sequence are as cheap as it gets. Honestly why they didn’t use background plates from the theatrical cut is beyond me.

- Poor use of music cues plague this film. Thau was shooting himself in the foot when he chose to replace Ken Thorne cues for scenes which were much or less the same as the theatrical cut. For example villains on the moon, Superman and Lois fly to the Fortress of Solitude and Zod’s speech to the general having just destroyed the small town. However for mine the two worst examples of music editing would be Superman rescuing the boy at Niagara Falls which is as choppy as you can get and secondly not staying with the Superman theme after crushing Zod’s hand.

- The Donner cut is riddled with bad audio. What was Thau thinking when Reeve delivers the line “I’m not a coward Zod’ in a high pitched voice? I accept something was wrong with the audio and you only need listen to the theatrical cut for proof of that but nevertheless you can’t have your hero sounding like that and I’m sure something could have been done. To a lesser extent the same could be said about Zod’s voice changing from scene to scene. Sound effects are both forced and absent at times. Worst choice would have to be the toilet flush in the Fortress of Solitude. The gag works without the deliberate sound effect.

- Superman destroying the Fortress of Solitude is still a problem for me because it looks like he kills Lex. I’m not much of a fan of the arctic patrol scene but if you are going to destroy the Fortress then you must have this scene. The only other way is to remove Superman destroying the Fortress of Solitude as you can then assume he went back for Lex, which is what I always guessed for the theatrical cut.

Overall the editing is quite poor. Sometimes I can forgive Thau because he was only following the script but at times you have got to use your judgement and be a bit more creative. The middle part of the film is where things really struggle. I can understand that Thau was going for a quicker paced film but at times he counteracts that by extending scenes like Lex and Eve trudging though the Fortress whilst trimming scenes like Lois and Clark arriving at the hotel to nothing more than an exit.

The ending doesn’t bother me too much because that’s how it was scripted and having recently read Mankiewicz’s shooting script for Superman II it’s a pretty good reconstruction. Obviously it was still a work in progress because Mank hadn’t resolved why Superman beats up the guy in the dinner when the initial confrontation never happened.

In hindsight perhaps Thau would have been better off completing a Superman II which could be viewed as Donner's sequel to Superman the Movie rather than a reconstruction of Donner’s intended Superman II. The former could still be a Richard Donner film.

But having said that I still think it’s a miracle that we got what we did and I’ll be forever great full. The fan cuts still have there place and hopefully they inspire someone at WB to tackle Superman II again.

[cypher85]

I agree with pretty much everything you just said regarding the donner cut.

[Jimbo]

And it sucks.

[ye5man]

The "please Mr Thau" campaign was funny...till we actually saw the cut

I can't watch it. I find it horrendous. I can't even watch individual scenes cos the music score is fucked up

[crazy_asian_man]

Now you could write a book about stuff wrong with the Donner cut but at the ‘bare minimum’ the following should have been fixed before release.

- The cheap background plates during the pre-title sequence are as cheap as it gets. Honestly why they didn’t use background plates from the theatrical cut is beyond me.

- Poor use of music cues plague this film. Thau was shooting himself in the foot when he chose to replace Ken Thorne cues for scenes which were much or less the same as the theatrical cut. For example villains on the moon, Superman and Lois fly to the Fortress of Solitude and Zod’s speech to the general having just destroyed the small town. However for mine the two worst examples of music editing would be Superman rescuing the boy at Niagara Falls which is as choppy as you can get and secondly not staying with the Superman theme after crushing Zod’s hand.

- The Donner cut is riddled with bad audio. What was Thau thinking when Reeve delivers the line “I’m not a coward Zod’ in a high pitched voice? I accept something was wrong with the audio and you only need listen to the theatrical cut for proof of that but nevertheless you can’t have your hero sounding like that and I’m sure something could have been done. To a lesser extent the same could be said about Zod’s voice changing from scene to scene. Sound effects are both forced and absent at times. Worst choice would have to be the toilet flush in the Fortress of Solitude. The gag works without the deliberate sound effect.

- Superman destroying the Fortress of Solitude is still a problem for me because it looks like he kills Lex. I’m not much of a fan of the arctic patrol scene but if you are going to destroy the Fortress then you must have this scene. The only other way is to remove Superman destroying the Fortress of Solitude as you can then assume he went back for Lex, which is what I always guessed for the theatrical cut.

Overall the editing is quite poor. Sometimes I can forgive Thau because he was only following the script but at times you have got to use your judgement and be a bit more creative. The middle part of the film is where things really struggle. I can understand that Thau was going for a quicker paced film but at times he counteracts that by extending scenes like Lex and Eve trudging though the Fortress whilst trimming scenes like Lois and Clark arriving at the hotel to nothing more than an exit.

The ending doesn’t bother me too much because that’s how it was scripted and having recently read Mankiewicz’s shooting script for Superman II it’s a pretty good reconstruction. Obviously it was still a work in progress because Mank hadn’t resolved why Superman beats up the guy in the dinner when the initial confrontation never happened.

In hindsight perhaps Thau would have been better off completing a Superman II which could be viewed as Donner's sequel to Superman the Movie rather than a reconstruction of Donner’s intended Superman II. The former could still be a Richard Donner film.

But having said that I still think it’s a miracle that we got what we did and I’ll be forever great full. The fan cuts still have there place and hopefully they inspire someone at WB to tackle Superman II again.

Well put!

The bare MINIMUM should have been NOT to damage what was done well already in the theatrical (Thorne music). Besides, it could have saved a world of time if the group that worked with Thau supposedly had little money and little time to put this out.

I have an odd feeling that Thau knows on some level how rough this is- he certainly defended the cut a little TOO strongly I thought in interviews at the time..... but it certainly felt like misguided choices all the way through when watching it--- and one can't help but think: 'Does Thau REALLY think this is the best work that can be done with this footage?'

[atp]

Jan 31, 2013 14:37:05 GMT -5 ye5man said:

The "please Mr Thau" campaign was funny...till we actually saw the cut

What was that campaign?

I vaguely remember something about it on the old forum.