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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 29, 2013 22:23:05 GMT -5
The poll to end all polls.
So I keep hearing how great Zimmer's score was great.
But is it better than the Williams score?
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Shane
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Post by Shane on Jul 29, 2013 22:45:18 GMT -5
no
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Jul 30, 2013 4:17:54 GMT -5
I can only hope...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 6:07:49 GMT -5
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 30, 2013 8:01:38 GMT -5
Zimmer's score is good but William's is iconic. It's the one all other superhero film scores are measured against. Plus Williams score is far more distinctively "Superman." As good as Zimmer's work was I think the same score could have been used for any number of heroes.
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 30, 2013 8:16:12 GMT -5
In hindsight, who now thinks it was a mistake to lose the Williams theme music?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 30, 2013 8:47:44 GMT -5
I don't think it was a mistake. It was the right call to do new music for a reboot. It's just that the Williams material is so perfect that its hard to top. I don't think Zimmer tried to top it and that was a smart move. I'd say the only mistake was not embracing everything good that the source material is. Don be afraid to be bold. Williams just went for it from the heart. Some composers scores now seem overly concerned with being modern or grounded. The Williams score celebrated Superman's spirit and his iconic status as pop culture hero. It sums up the character and his mythology better than just about anything else
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 16:47:46 GMT -5
I don't think Williams invented the wheel with his score, he merely perfected the shape. If you listen to the musical themes from the 40s radio show, the Fleischer cartoons, and the Reeves show, there is always a three-note motiff. Each version is a little different, but Williams made his main theme an homage to those existing themes and fleshed them out rather nicely. Now, Zimmer is doing the same. If you listen to the big fanfare at the middle of the third trailer music, yep, a three-note motiff.
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 31, 2013 12:02:10 GMT -5
I have come full circle now, and think that it was a mistake to lose the Williams music. I'll try to explain it (please)...
When I first heard they were not using it, my immediate reaction was that it was bad (retarded) idea. But that was just a reflexive thought, not really based on anything more than resisting change.
My viewpoint changed once I saw the first Comic Con trailer and heard Zimmer's incredible Journey to the Line music. At that point, I started to agree that a new take on Superman needed new music. And when I heard the equally brilliant Trailer 3 music, I was totally sold.
But...
Having seen MoS four times now, I can say that it was a mistake to lose the Williams music. Don't get me wrong - I think Zimmer's music is fantastic, in particular Flight.
However, I think that departing from the Williams music gave Snyder and Goyer implicit permission to also depart from who Superman is. The score was great, but at the end of the day it was a generic superhero score, shaded with the Nolan Batman movie music. And so, what we got was a generic superhero movie, shaded with the dark tone of the Nolan Batman films!
Did the music create the tone of the movie or was it the other way around? It doesn't really matter. What matters is that Snyder and Goyer didn't have to be accountable to the music. If they had known their movie would need to be worthy of the Superman theme music, I believe it would have made them do things differently. It would have kept them more in line.
Yes, yes, I know that S4 and SR demonstrate that the Williams theme music isn't enough to save a crap film. But still, those two movies feel closer to having the "heart" of a Superman movie than MoS did.
this is just my opinion, and I am sure people will disagree. But remember: I was IN the theatre. I HEARD. What the music did.
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Post by EnriqueH on Jul 31, 2013 12:33:04 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with new music, but I kinda feel like the main theme is like the Bond theme for Superman.
Then again, the last two filmmakers to tackle Superman clearly don't understand who and what Superman is so its no surprise thatt we lost the theme.
Losing the theme is symptomatic of Superman's problems.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 31, 2013 14:10:22 GMT -5
I think even with the Williams theme this movie would have lacked heart and Snyder and Goyer still wouldn't understand who Superman is at his core. heck they may not have even known how to integrate the Williams theme into the movie at the right times. I don't think the Williams theme would have fit this film anyway. A different take from the Donner film wasn't the problem (no more than Nolans Batfilms being different from Burton's was a problem). Snyder and Goyers execution was just often poor.
Plus a show or movie can capture the spirit of the character without the Williams theme. Superman TAS understood the soul of the character just as much as STM BUT Shirley Walker created her own theme that was different but still fit Superman. The problem is Snyder doesn't always know how to convey emotional or deeper idea and Goyer tends to look down his nose at characters like Superman and most of his history. No music would have changed those fundamental problems. I don't think the type of music is a symptom of either way. The actions events and characters in the film are symptoms of that.
The Bond comparison never made sense to me because the cinematic Bond is still EONS BOND even with the reboot. the films are still being made by Cubby's company. It's just like the Salkinds using parts of the Williams theme for Superboy even though that show was a sort of reboot. With MOS its a different product from a different group of creators. Its WBs Superman but they let other production companies make these movies (like EON produces the Bond films for a studio to distribute the difference being EON owns cinematic rights). Superman was also a pop culture icon in various forms of media LONG before Warner Brothers owned him.
It other producers or another studio did a different take on Bond there's a chance they wouldn't even use the Bond theme even if they had the legal right to. If other producers got a chance to do more faithful adaptations of Flemings work there's a strong chance they wouldn't use the Bond theme of the EON films.
The Psycho theme is iconic but I don't think Bates Motel is using it. There are other examples.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 31, 2013 14:33:11 GMT -5
Wasn't scoring the film pretty much the last (or next to last?) part of the production, though?
In retrospect, I'm glad that they didn't use the John Williams' music. It just wouldn't have fit for what they were doing anyhow.
On the other hand, I was looking forward to having Hans Zimmer top himself-- but "the Rock" , "Lion King", and "Rain Man" are still among his tops imo.
Maybe I need to listen it to it more, but "The Rock" music got me right away in watching that film the very first time.
Anyhow....
I do wonder where John Williams places his own "Superman" theme in his own personal top ten?
I vaguely remember a link to an article at Superman Cinema where Williams is quoted has having loved the STM credits- primarily because he was able to enjoy sort of a 'mini-concert' (I'm paraphrasing) of his music before the film even begins.... but I don't recall if he himself considered Superman among his best works....
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 31, 2013 14:39:19 GMT -5
Wasn't scoring the film pretty much the last (or next to last?) part of the production, though? This is something I have always been curious about. How does it work in the movie business? Do they shoot the film first and only then do the music in order to fit it? Or is the music written in parallel with the shooting? |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 31, 2013 14:46:49 GMT -5
From what I've gathered (and someone correct me if they've found/know differently):
The composer comes up with bits, and shares them with the director- soon as he can....
BUT...
The actual scoring (rearranging and composing music to specific timing of bits) only happens when there's an actual 'cut' ready.
If I remember right- does anyone recall reading a bit where John Williams got burned out on Superman because of different cuts and racing to meet a release date? (If so, it would explain how some of the music for the ABC/IRC STM seems to fit better than even the theatrical).
Anyhow- the only time I'd heard where they did it 'in reverse' (that is, make the music first) was for "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"- where Speilberg asked/let Williams come up with the musical 'conversation' between the technicians and the alien species be created first- and then he created the sequence around that. (At least I think either it was in the 'making of' book or on the bts dvd set--- can't remember for sure.... but it would seem to make sense.)
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Post by Jimbo on Jul 31, 2013 16:04:40 GMT -5
In the cases where I've paid attention, the musical scores are recorded 3-4 months prior to release. Star Trek Into Darkness's score was recorded around February of this year.
However, with some rare exceptions, the score is written first, and the movie is shot/edited to fit the score. Notable cases are E.T. and Once Upon a Time in the West. For Once Upon a Time, they actually played the musical score on set for the actors to hear during shooting.
There was a lot of tension between Cameron and Horner during Aliens. Cameron kept tinkering with the edit, making Horner's musical cues useless. He had to keep rewriting and readjusting on the fly.
Superman IV obviously was scored using the workprint cut. They sync up perfectly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 22:14:03 GMT -5
Films are often made and edited to temp tracks. Specific pieces or songs the filmmakers have in mind to set a scene to. You'll notice it in a lot of very early screenings and reviews for said screenings. Zimmer's scores are probably the most used temp tracks, from what I've gathered.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using proboards
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MerM
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Post by MerM on Jul 31, 2013 22:35:37 GMT -5
Thomas Newman's used a lot too.
Even John Williams has fallen victim to temp track love - listen to Agnes of God and then listen to Hook.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 23:28:38 GMT -5
Here's a thought for a Superman theme: a room with a synthesizer, John Carpenter, Alan Howarth, a bag of weed, and a couple of six-packs.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 1, 2013 8:34:52 GMT -5
heck I'd listen to the results of that film or no film.
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Post by Jimbo on Aug 1, 2013 11:24:16 GMT -5
Thus far, I think this is our first unanimous poll.  |
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Post by Jack Tripper on Aug 8, 2013 18:32:09 GMT -5
Surely whoever picked Zimmer is just trolling right?....RIGHT!?!?
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Post by Jimbo on Aug 8, 2013 22:28:29 GMT -5
Deleted and banned.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 22:40:05 GMT -5
Poking the hornets' nest with a stick? Right here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 15:01:45 GMT -5
Williams, but I gotta tell you, Zimmer's is my second favorite Superman theme and score now. Officially. I absolutely fucking LOVE it.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 18, 2013 20:47:18 GMT -5
Williams, but I gotta tell you, Zimmer's is my second favorite Superman theme and score now. Officially. I absolutely fucking LOVE it. "Sketchbook". Mrs jor had an ol girlfriend come over a couple weeks ago. My job? Dinner, drinks, stay out of the way, be charming, flattering, do the dishes, get lost. Lol I keed I keeed ... After an hour this gal (imagine hilary swank w/ big boobs) says... "this sounds like a movie...this is niiiiiiice" Mission accomplished. |
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