atp
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Post by atp on May 12, 2015 11:48:15 GMT -5
After years of imagining the Brando footage to be this holy grail, the reality was underwhelming.
Would the film really have been better with it?
The Brando scenes in the RDC actually seem like they would have hurt S2. They drag, and the acting is crap.
It is as though Brando knew his STM scenes were crucial, but that he could "phone in" the S2 scenes.
So, if I were in charge of the production, I may also have decided to cut him from S2. A better movie and you save on the cost.
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Post by zuperman on May 12, 2015 13:44:30 GMT -5
It's not the acting. It's the writing.
Don't shoot the messenger...shoot the message.
Jor-El tells Kal that he can be human...and let all of humanity die in their shit.
Lara tells Kal that he can be human...because love is the meaning of life.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2015 11:12:21 GMT -5
After years of imagining the Brando footage to be this holy grail, the reality was underwhelming. Would the film really have been better with it? The Brando scenes in the RDC actually seem like they would have hurt S2. They drag, and the acting is crap. It is as though Brando knew his STM scenes were crucial, but that he could "phone in" the S2 scenes. So, if I were in charge of the production, I may also have decided to cut him from S2. A better movie and you save on the cost. Brando slept through EVERY scene he shot..... but you can't tell in STM- and you can't help but wonder if it's the editing once again.... it's the main difference between the two films. We don't know for sure that it's the reason for the difference in quality, but the edit choices are so consistently bad, it's hard to not to acknowledge it could have been a factor, if not THE factor. And- even Donner said he might have brought Brando back for reshooting- not uncommon. Bad recycled music edition also could have been a factor.... |
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Post by ChrisM on May 14, 2015 13:50:50 GMT -5
It was the right choice given the circumstances. The footage we saw in the RDC confirmed that. Sure it may have been reshot if Donner stayed but not playing the what-if game.
My biggest beef with the S2 story is the premise that he had to lose his powers to live as a human. Uh hasn't he spent his whole life living as a human pior to then? It's a contrivance for the plot. And the FOS so conveniently has a power-zapper thingy... might as well as call it the Fairy Godmother. The idea was executed as well as it could, but still just not something I would have approved as part of the script.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 14, 2015 14:23:37 GMT -5
I think some of it definitely should have been left on the cutting room floor. Some of its just flat. I actually think some of the Lara footage is superior in certain scenes where she replaces him. I think the repowering with Brando is a must but at the same time I prefer the flow of the theatrical cut where you're not sure what happened until Superman flies into the city to face Zod and co.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2015 23:29:58 GMT -5
It was the right choice given the circumstances. The footage we saw in the RDC confirmed that. Sure it may have been reshot if Donner stayed but not playing the what-if game. My biggest beef with the S2 story is the premise that he had to lose his powers to live as a human. Uh hasn't he spent his whole life living as a human pior to then? It's a contrivance for the plot. And the FOS so conveniently has a power-zapper thingy... might as well as call it the Fairy Godmother. The idea was executed as well as it could, but still just not something I would have approved as part of the script. That's the biggest 'what if' to me.... if the footage we saw in the RDC REALLY was the best stuff- then that's one thing. Thau just did so many bad choices for me not to think that it could very likely have been the editor that ruined the presentation of the footage. If WB had released 'raw takes' as an extra for some of these sequences, it would be easy enough to cut and know for sure. As is, we see fan cutters reassembling things left and right from what's already in the RDC- to (mostly) vastly improved results. Oh, well.... |
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crown
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Post by crown on May 15, 2015 1:34:01 GMT -5
I think some of it definitely should have been left on the cutting room floor. Some of its just flat. I actually think some of the Lara footage is superior in certain scenes where she replaces him. I think the repowering with Brando is a must but at the same time I prefer the flow of the theatrical cut where you're not sure what happened until Superman flies into the city to face Zod and co. I really like the look Lara gives Superman after he says that he loves Lois. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 15, 2015 12:22:15 GMT -5
I think some of it definitely should have been left on the cutting room floor. Some of its just flat. I actually think some of the Lara footage is superior in certain scenes where she replaces him. I think the repowering with Brando is a must but at the same time I prefer the flow of the theatrical cut where you're not sure what happened until Superman flies into the city to face Zod and co.
yes-the re-powering scene as seen in the theatrical(on a first time viewing) left an air of uncertainty as to whether he had in fact claimed his powers back.
It was edited perfectly-you had the dramatic impact of Clark/Supes getting battered in the dina(again hugely powerful in it's own right because this was the first time that Supes gets physically beaten in nearly 3 1/2 hours of running film time--if you include STM and you were watching it back to back with SII)---I will always remember the gasping sound in the audience when Clark goes smashing through that glass door/frame when Rocky hits him from behind.
Also Yorke's /Lara's delivery is pretty much bang on: "You can be hurt like an ordinary man"---having now seen Brando's equivalent line---IMHO Yorke's is better.
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atp
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Post by atp on May 15, 2015 14:41:36 GMT -5
Brando sounded bored when he was talking about the crystal chamber and Kal El becoming an ordinary man.
Even the way he gestured towards the crystal chamber seemed uninterested.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 15, 2015 16:25:23 GMT -5
Brando sounded bored when he was talking about the crystal chamber and Kal El becoming an ordinary man. Even the way he gestured towards the crystal chamber seemed uninterested. Brando could have been bored or maybe it was Donner's direction(possibly because of time constraints).
The Brando recitations from part II actually resemble the cut scene from STM where Jorel encourages Supes to maintain his double identity. The acting is roughly on the same level and that scene was wisely excised from STM. I think Donner would have re-shot those Brando scenes for II if he had come back in 1979---assuming Brando would have been available?
The Donner depowering scene ---- without the reaction shots of Kidder's Lois goes down a notch. Not sure if those were never filmed(which would have been inexcusable) or if they were simply never found.
Lester filmed good close-ups of Kidder for his version and that provides the emotional equilibrium for the scene as a whole .
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atp
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Post by atp on May 15, 2015 16:37:38 GMT -5
Brando sounded bored when he was talking about the crystal chamber and Kal El becoming an ordinary man. Even the way he gestured towards the crystal chamber seemed uninterested. Brando could have been bored or maybe it was Donner's direction(possibly because of time constraints).
The Brando recitations from part II actually resemble the cut scene from STM where Jorel encourages Supes to maintain his double identity. The acting is roughly on the same level and that scene was wisely excised from STM. I think Donner would have re-shot those Brando scenes for II if he had come back in 1979---assuming Brando would have been available?
The Donner depowering scene ---- without the reaction shots of Kidder's Lois goes down a notch. Not sure if those were never filmed(which would have been inexcusable) or if they were simply never found.
Lester filmed good close-ups of Kidder for his version and that provides the emotional equilibrium for the scene as a whole .
I quite liked parts of the deleted Brando scene in STM, but overall, I am glad it was deleted. There's such a thing as too much Jor El. I now think the amount we saw in STM was enough. There is a limit to how many times we can hear Brando saying, "My son". |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 15, 2015 23:32:57 GMT -5
Brando could have been bored or maybe it was Donner's direction(possibly because of time constraints).
The Brando recitations from part II actually resemble the cut scene from STM where Jorel encourages Supes to maintain his double identity. The acting is roughly on the same level and that scene was wisely excised from STM. I think Donner would have re-shot those Brando scenes for II if he had come back in 1979---assuming Brando would have been available?
The Donner depowering scene ---- without the reaction shots of Kidder's Lois goes down a notch. Not sure if those were never filmed(which would have been inexcusable) or if they were simply never found.
Lester filmed good close-ups of Kidder for his version and that provides the emotional equilibrium for the scene as a whole .
I quite liked parts of the deleted Brando scene in STM, but overall, I am glad it was deleted. There's such a thing as too much Jor El. I now think the amount we saw in STM was enough. There is a limit to how many times we can hear Brando saying, "My son".
Agreed-I think the cut STM Brando scene works well when seen in isolation but disrupts the flow of the narrative when it is inserted into the theatrical version--hence the reason why Baird cut it out(maybe over the protestations of Donner?).
The only alternative I can think of is that Thau did not choose the best takes that Brando gave for SII?---highly plausible given the other editorial choices Thau made in the RDC.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 16, 2015 1:50:18 GMT -5
I quite liked parts of the deleted Brando scene in STM, but overall, I am glad it was deleted. There's such a thing as too much Jor El. I now think the amount we saw in STM was enough. There is a limit to how many times we can hear Brando saying, "My son".
Agreed-I think the cut STM Brando scene works well when seen in isolation but disrupts the flow of the narrative when it is inserted into the theatrical version--hence the reason why Baird cut it out(maybe over the protestations of Donner?).
The only alternative I can think of is that Thau did not choose the best takes that Brando gave for SII?---highly plausible given the other editorial choices Thau made in the RDC.
That's what I've been saying..... That the takes either weren't the best, or the editing of it just killed the performances- but it's just hard to know without being able to see all of the takes. Now, if BAIRD edited these and this is what the result was, then, yeah.... it would be definitive that the Donner footage was at fault.... but that's why I look at the string of Donner films to get a better sense of what Donner was able to do with many actors, versus just looking at the RDC alone.... |
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atp
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Post by atp on May 16, 2015 4:08:19 GMT -5
I wish there were another way to have Superman lose his powers.
The whole "giving them up to marry lois" thing is just stupid.
Plus, the idea of Jor El sending along a molecule chamber with red sun rays just in case his son decides to become human is just childish and even more stupid. What happened to "He will need that advantage to survive"?
Problem is, if you lose the molecule chamber, you also lose the way he defeats the villains at the end. He would instead have to break each of their necks, like he did in MoS.
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crown
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Post by crown on May 16, 2015 6:58:17 GMT -5
I wish there were another way to have Superman lose his powers. The whole "giving them up to marry lois" thing is just stupid. Plus, the idea of Jor El sending along a molecule chamber with red sun rays just in case his son decides to become human is just childish and even more stupid. What happened to "He will need that advantage to survive"? Problem is, if you lose the molecule chamber, you also lose the way he defeats the villains at the end. He would instead have to break each of their necks, like he did in MoS. Superman could have negotiated a truce with Zod. Zod would get to rule Earth and Superman could fly Jeremy and Lacy to the moon so the two could mate and produce a free moon colony. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 16, 2015 8:30:01 GMT -5
I wish there were another way to have Superman lose his powers. The whole "giving them up to marry lois" thing is just stupid. Plus, the idea of Jor El sending along a molecule chamber with red sun rays just in case his son decides to become human is just childish and even more stupid. What happened to "He will need that advantage to survive"? Problem is, if you lose the molecule chamber, you also lose the way he defeats the villains at the end. He would instead have to break each of their necks, like he did in MoS.
Again in isolation it seems a bit harsh for Ol' Supes to relinquish everything.
But as a way of contrasting a depowered Superman to the all powerful 3 criminals from Krypton I think it is a terrific piece of storytelling.
The bashed up Clark watching Zod taunting Superman on TV was brilliant.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 16, 2015 8:39:11 GMT -5
Agreed-I think the cut STM Brando scene works well when seen in isolation but disrupts the flow of the narrative when it is inserted into the theatrical version--hence the reason why Baird cut it out(maybe over the protestations of Donner?).
The only alternative I can think of is that Thau did not choose the best takes that Brando gave for SII?---highly plausible given the other editorial choices Thau made in the RDC.
That's what I've been saying..... That the takes either weren't the best, or the editing of it just killed the performances- but it's just hard to know without being able to see all of the takes. Now, if BAIRD edited these and this is what the result was, then, yeah.... it would be definitive that the Donner footage was at fault.... but that's why I look at the string of Donner films to get a better sense of what Donner was able to do with many actors, versus just looking at the RDC alone....
Likely we will never know. IMHO--I think the biggest disappointment with the RDC was how much less Donner did actually shoot. Throughout the 90's and 2000's it was estimated that he had shot up to 80% of II--of which 20-30 % ended up in the theatrical release.
But the fact of the matter was that he had really only shot about 50 %----when you think of the technology and scheduling that was available at the time it was amazing that he had shot that much.
But I am a bit pissed off with Donner for allowing a few myths to take on a life all of their own during these years when his footage was unavailable to the public. The Honeymoon haven scenes in particular which he claimed he had completed when in fact he had not----- being the biggest example.
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atp
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Post by atp on May 16, 2015 8:54:33 GMT -5
I wish there were another way to have Superman lose his powers. The whole "giving them up to marry lois" thing is just stupid. Plus, the idea of Jor El sending along a molecule chamber with red sun rays just in case his son decides to become human is just childish and even more stupid. What happened to "He will need that advantage to survive"? Problem is, if you lose the molecule chamber, you also lose the way he defeats the villains at the end. He would instead have to break each of their necks, like he did in MoS.
Again in isolation it seems a bit harsh for Ol' Supes to relinquish everything.
But as a way of contrasting a depowered Superman to the all powerful 3 criminals from Krypton I think it is a terrific piece of storytelling.
The bashed up Clark watching Zod taunting Superman on TV was brilliant.
I defiitely agree that the depowered Superman was necessary. The diner scene is brilliant. I just don't like the way he loses his powers and the whole reasoning behind it. In my opinion he should have lost his powers as the price for bringing Lois back to life. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 16, 2015 9:56:56 GMT -5
That's what I've been saying..... That the takes either weren't the best, or the editing of it just killed the performances- but it's just hard to know without being able to see all of the takes. Now, if BAIRD edited these and this is what the result was, then, yeah.... it would be definitive that the Donner footage was at fault.... but that's why I look at the string of Donner films to get a better sense of what Donner was able to do with many actors, versus just looking at the RDC alone....
Likely we will never know. IMHO--I think the biggest disappointment with the RDC was how much less Donner did actually shoot. Throughout the 90's and 2000's it was estimated that he had shot up to 80% of II--of which 20-30 % ended up in the theatrical release.
But the fact of the matter was that he had really only shot about 50 %----when you think of the technology and scheduling that was available at the time it was amazing that he had shot that much.
But I am a bit pissed off with Donner for allowing a few myths to take on a life all of their own during these years when his footage was unavailable to the public. The Honeymoon haven scenes in particular which he claimed he had completed when in fact he had not----- being the biggest example.
Agreed.... the tech was so primitive compared to today, that it is incredibly impressive how Donner was able to get as much done as he did and the quality he had done them with. Donner might have forgotten how much he shot- but.... that's where I think it just gets weird in figuring out the dip in quality with those missing scenes (some of them anyhow) from STM to SII- 1. Ilya Salkind mentioned Donner shooting way too much on every scene, since he was a perfectionist. 2. Almost all of Donner's films at that time had excellent performances, as he's an actor's director. 3. Almost everything Thau touched editing-wise took a notch down or felt flawed in the RDC.... at some points, EXTREMELY flawed to a point where things are confusing. (Jor-el not disappearing during the explosion of the crystals, horrible voice dubs in spots, and just generally bad choices overall) 4. Donner's insistence in 2006 to take takes that go 'faster faster'- versus his self in 1978. So, anyhow, I may be giving too much credit to Donner for takes that may or may not exist, but STM is just so pitch perfect that it's hard not to give the benefit of the doubt. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 17, 2015 7:45:41 GMT -5
Likely we will never know. IMHO--I think the biggest disappointment with the RDC was how much less Donner did actually shoot. Throughout the 90's and 2000's it was estimated that he had shot up to 80% of II--of which 20-30 % ended up in the theatrical release.
But the fact of the matter was that he had really only shot about 50 %----when you think of the technology and scheduling that was available at the time it was amazing that he had shot that much.
But I am a bit pissed off with Donner for allowing a few myths to take on a life all of their own during these years when his footage was unavailable to the public. The Honeymoon haven scenes in particular which he claimed he had completed when in fact he had not----- being the biggest example.
Agreed.... the tech was so primitive compared to today, that it is incredibly impressive how Donner was able to get as much done as he did and the quality he had done them with. Donner might have forgotten how much he shot- but.... that's where I think it just gets weird in figuring out the dip in quality with those missing scenes (some of them anyhow) from STM to SII- 1. Ilya Salkind mentioned Donner shooting way too much on every scene, since he was a perfectionist. 2. Almost all of Donner's films at that time had excellent performances, as he's an actor's director. 3. Almost everything Thau touched editing-wise took a notch down or felt flawed in the RDC.... at some points, EXTREMELY flawed to a point where things are confusing. (Jor-el not disappearing during the explosion of the crystals, horrible voice dubs in spots, and just generally bad choices overall) 4. Donner's insistence in 2006 to take takes that go 'faster faster'- versus his self in 1978. So, anyhow, I may be giving too much credit to Donner for takes that may or may not exist, but STM is just so pitch perfect that it's hard not to give the benefit of the doubt.
Well Thau is no Baird either in terms of technical ability or personality.
The fact that Baird argued with Donner quite a bit during the original editing run back in 1977-78 contrasts quite dramatically with Thau just accepting without resistance all of Donner's suggestions in 2005-06---or so it would seem.
Bearing in mind that Donner himself is no longer looking at the old footage with the skill set he had in 77-78. He was looking at this footage through the eyes of some-one with all the experience and skills he had amassed since 77-78(non -linear editing, CGI ect ect)
To be fair Ilya does say in the SII commentary that certain Donner material "was not 100%" and that this was recognized in 1979. And whilst that may sound blasphemous you only need to look at the stuff that was deleted from the original STM edit to realize just how instrumental Baird was in contributing to the rhythmical beauty of STM and that Donner was not immune from shooting "fluff".
The Miss Teshmacher looking for the toilet in the FOS is a prime example.
In 1979 ---and had they been allowed to finish; I would have predicted that the Baird/Donner team would have junked that toilet reference. John Victor Smith did in his 1979-1980 assembly.
But Thau did not have the guts to tell Donner(or vice - versa?) to keep it out in 2005-06!
Film-making is a collaborative effort--there is no one individual who can do it all by themselves.
Something that is lost on a lot of fan-boy editors(Adywan take note!).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 17, 2015 13:28:14 GMT -5
Agreed.... the tech was so primitive compared to today, that it is incredibly impressive how Donner was able to get as much done as he did and the quality he had done them with. Donner might have forgotten how much he shot- but.... that's where I think it just gets weird in figuring out the dip in quality with those missing scenes (some of them anyhow) from STM to SII- 1. Ilya Salkind mentioned Donner shooting way too much on every scene, since he was a perfectionist. 2. Almost all of Donner's films at that time had excellent performances, as he's an actor's director. 3. Almost everything Thau touched editing-wise took a notch down or felt flawed in the RDC.... at some points, EXTREMELY flawed to a point where things are confusing. (Jor-el not disappearing during the explosion of the crystals, horrible voice dubs in spots, and just generally bad choices overall) 4. Donner's insistence in 2006 to take takes that go 'faster faster'- versus his self in 1978. So, anyhow, I may be giving too much credit to Donner for takes that may or may not exist, but STM is just so pitch perfect that it's hard not to give the benefit of the doubt.
Well Thau is no Baird either in terms of technical ability or personality.
The fact that Baird argued with Donner quite a bit during the original editing run back in 1977-78 contrasts quite dramatically with Thau just accepting without resistance all of Donner's suggestions in 2005-06---or so it would seem.
Bearing in mind that Donner himself is no longer looking at the old footage with the skill set he had in 77-78. He was looking at this footage through the eyes of some-one with all the experience and skills he had amassed since 77-78(non -linear editing, CGI ect ect)
To be fair Ilya does say in the SII commentary that certain Donner material "was not 100%" and that this was recognized in 1979. And whilst that may sound blasphemous you only need to look at the stuff that was deleted from the original STM edit to realize just how instrumental Baird was in contributing to the rhythmical beauty of STM and that Donner was not immune from shooting "fluff".
The Miss Teshmacher looking for the toilet in the FOS is a prime example.
In 1979 ---and had they been allowed to finish; I would have predicted that the Baird/Donner team would have junked that toilet reference. John Victor Smith did in his 1979-1980 assembly.
But Thau did not have the guts to tell Donner(or vice - versa?) to keep it out in 2005-06!
Film-making is a collaborative effort--there is no one individual who can do it all by themselves.
Something that is lost on a lot of fan-boy editors(Adywan take note!).
To Donner's credit, he'd fire... but rehire Baird right away, despite fighting. Donner/Baird was an awesome combo: Here's some of their greatest hits together: 1- Omen 2- STM 3- parts of SII 4- Ladyhawke 5- Lethal Weapon I and II 6- Maverick (Not as great, but still fun) Baird got two Oscar nominations for best editing: Superman & Gorillas in the Midst. Not bad! Wasn't nominated for Green Lantern, but that's not his fault.... |
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atp
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Post by atp on May 19, 2015 16:19:29 GMT -5
i wonder if they considered having Lara sacrifice herself to give clark his powers back.
when they dropped brando, she took his place for the depowering. but why not for the repowering?
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crown
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Post by crown on May 19, 2015 19:43:54 GMT -5
i wonder if they considered having Lara sacrifice herself to give clark his powers back. when they dropped brando, she took his place for the depowering. but why not for the repowering? I don't know.. the son becomes the mother and the mother becomes the son?!? I don't think that'll work...... unless we did a fan edit where Superman emerges repowered as Helen Slater. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 20, 2015 0:53:50 GMT -5
i wonder if they considered having Lara sacrifice herself to give clark his powers back. when they dropped brando, she took his place for the depowering. but why not for the repowering? I don't know.. the son becomes the mother and the mother becomes the son?!? I don't think that'll work...... unless we did a fan edit where Superman emerges repowered as Helen Slater. true.... |
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crown
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Post by crown on May 20, 2015 0:55:02 GMT -5
But seriously I liked that Lara didn't reppear and that Clark got his powers back by sheer dumb luck (leaving the crystal out of the bank). Basically Lara was dead serious when she was telling her son that there was no going back.. I like that take as it's different than Jor-El's "I knew this would happen..." bit.
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