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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 23, 2017 1:42:05 GMT -5
Well...
Most everyone (it seems) prefers the theatrical version of Clark walking into what seems like a dark and dead Fortress of Solitude and so filled with despair, that he can only say 'I failed'...
Versus
The Richard Donner cut version- where Clark climbs through a short-cut, to a brightly lit Fortress of Solitude, hurries to kick through the crystals, and immediately launches into a pretty fast mini-monologue "I failed- I failed you, etc..."
I have too much regard for Donner- given the vast amount of his other films of high quality (as opposed to Lester, who doesn't have nearly as many) to feel that this would have been his final version.
His idea of: "let's cut everything so it goes faster & faster takes with everything", though, was, well- off.
The reason the RDC portion in the beginning of the repowering doesn't work as well as the theatrical or at all are the following:
* The decision to keep the Fortress brightly lit may be a practical one for special effects/and/or Brando's short window of time for shooting. Or... maybe it was an idea that Lester or Reeve came up with in reshoots later. Whatever the case, I do agree that the darkened FOS has more impact for the mood.
* The decision to have Clark climb in/rush to the panels/rattle off the monologue instantly- either it's due to the 'fast fast fast' (bad) choice by Donner in 2006, or poor editing to set the rhythym up properly, so it doesn't feel like one whole rushed action. Such a pity that there was no footage of alternate takes (I remember the Salkinds saying Donner always did a zillion takes of almost everything)- to see if there was a slower performance of the Mank speech here.
I remember reading the Mank speech and thinking how powerful it was going to be, but in viewing Reeve's fast rattling off/mumbling the lines, it feels mostly forced and disappointing. Is it possible that this was shot so early and Reeve couldn't figure out yet his character and how to make these lines work? Or was this a take that was just chosen because it moved faster? Even so, there are/were ways that this could have been slowed down through the edits... to me, it just feels like everything happens so fast (climbing up, kicking the crystals on the ground, diving right into the monologue) to feel natural... whereas the slow and mournful take in the theatrical feels more 'right' for this moment.
Anyhow--- this whole repowering sequence was so disappointing, (even Marlon's take on parts of it seemed a strange interpretation based on the way I read the script), that while I'm sort of glad that Donner said he would have reshot this, it makes me sad if this really is the best of what was shot at the time.
Other thoughts?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 23, 2017 7:47:52 GMT -5
Count me as one who thinks Lesters version is better. Reeve's performance is so much more deep and refined. Donner probably would have reshot it though.
I really like the darkly lit green glow look of the damaged/depowered Fortress. That's why I like that they kept it for Superman IV.
One of the best things with the DVD releases of all this material on STM and SII was getting to see all the screen tests and alternate footage from the Donner and Lester cuts. We really got to see the actors process of molding and shaping their performances. Especially with Reeve. It's fascinating to see how he and the directors shaped his performances in the finished films compared to his first times at bat with the material.
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crown
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Post by crown on Nov 23, 2017 11:51:25 GMT -5
I agree that Clark basically ran up to the crystals, quickly kicked them around a bit, before launching into an obviously rehearsed and rushed monologue.
But this makes sense because A. Clark had no time to waste in getting his powers back so he had to rush and B. Clark had time to rehearse what he was going to say en route to the fortress.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 23, 2017 15:47:38 GMT -5
Count me as one who thinks Lesters version is better. Reeve's performance is so much more deep and refined. Donner probably would have reshot it though. I really like the darkly lit green glow look of the damaged/depowered Fortress. That's why I like that they kept it for Superman IV. One of the best things with the DVD releases of all this material on STM and SII was getting to see all the screen tests and alternate footage from the Donner and Lester cuts. We really got to see the actors process of molding and shaping their performances. Especially with Reeve. It's fascinating to see how he and the directors shaped his performances in the finished films compared to his first times at bat with the material. I agree- I don't know if Donner would have wanted the dark lighting, (count me also as one that liked the darker lighting better) but I would have preferred a much slower performance of that mini-monologue... and I do wonder if there was another take filmed or not that might have been more natural. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 23, 2017 15:48:54 GMT -5
I agree that Clark basically ran up to the crystals, quickly kicked them around a bit, before launching into an obviously rehearsed and rushed monologue. But this makes sense because A. Clark had no time to waste in getting his powers back so he had to rush and B. Clark had time to rehearse what he was going to say en route to the fortress. I was okay with him rushing to the console, but a quick kick (and quickly giving up) and a quick mumbled monologue I disliked. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Nov 23, 2017 19:47:38 GMT -5
I agree that Clark basically ran up to the crystals, quickly kicked them around a bit, before launching into an obviously rehearsed and rushed monologue. But this makes sense because A. Clark had no time to waste in getting his powers back so he had to rush and B. Clark had time to rehearse what he was going to say en route to the fortress. I was okay with him rushing to the console, but a quick kick (and quickly giving up) and a quick mumbled monologue I disliked. Yeah he quickly kicked the crystals around, immediately gave up and rushed through the scripted monologue. It was like Reeve was rehearsing for the real scene and didn't realize the cameras were rolling. Either that or Donner said "Look kid just go through this real quick.. Brando is costing us a fortune and old man Salkind is gonna have my legs broke! Let's just rush this and we'll reshoot your stuff later." |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 15:46:48 GMT -5
I was okay with him rushing to the console, but a quick kick (and quickly giving up) and a quick mumbled monologue I disliked. Yeah he quickly kicked the crystals around, immediately gave up and rushed through the scripted monologue. It was like Reeve was rehearsing for the real scene and didn't realize the cameras were rolling. Either that or Donner said "Look kid just go through this real quick.. Brando is costing us a fortune and old man Salkind is gonna have my legs broke! Let's just rush this and we'll reshoot your stuff later." That scene could have been slowed down by cuts of inserts- unless there weren't any shot. But- yeah, I know from the Thau interview, Donner wanted things to move faster in 2006.... And I know he was on a deadline with Brando- but, your thought might not be far off at all. (Same with the lack of Lois closeups for the Depowering scene) |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 24, 2017 16:00:35 GMT -5
I know a certain other director was best know for his instructions of "faster and with more intensity" but couldn't Donner be one of those guys sometimes?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 18:39:25 GMT -5
I know a certain other director was best know for his instructions of "faster and with more intensity" but couldn't Donner be one of those guys sometimes? True- but if just counting off the number of excellent scenes in both films and the standard of quality he demanded before signoff, giving Donner the benefit of doubt I think is appropriate. If this was the best take, and if Donner DIDN'T have any other pace intended for this scene.... then I do wonder how he would have framed the (unfilmed) scenes before then.... because as is, it comes off as awkward and stilted at best, rather than moving. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 24, 2017 19:11:03 GMT -5
He was probably somewhat rushed to make the release dates and that's why some of his takes for II weren't up to snuff. After halting work on II to finish I it probably made things a little easier.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 19:20:56 GMT -5
He was probably somewhat rushed to make the release dates and that's why some of his takes for II weren't up to snuff. After halting work on II to finish I it probably made things a little easier. Still- wish there was a disc showing the other takes he did with Brando and Reeve for those scenes. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 24, 2017 19:24:00 GMT -5
If they do something for Superman II's 40th you might see it then. Eventually most of that stuff will be released if it's in any condition to be released.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 19:26:01 GMT -5
If they do something for Superman II's 40th you might see it then. Eventually most of that stuff will be released if it's in any condition to be released. Well, I was pretty shocked to see the quality of the tv cut recently- if the restoration process is THAT good now, it seems like they should be able to restore any other existing footage from that time as well--- Anyhow, hopefully.... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 24, 2017 19:27:14 GMT -5
Kinda surprised they put much work into it. It easily could have been a cash grab release.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 19:29:36 GMT -5
Kinda surprised they put much work into it. It easily could have been a cash grab release. It's AMAZING how good it looked. Now, it's unfortunately raised my expectations gigantically for an SII tv cut.... |
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crown
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Post by crown on Nov 24, 2017 20:12:50 GMT -5
I have to say that the Donner repower scene is better than Lester's on balance.
Yes, the "I failed" soliloquy is superior in Lester's take, but Donner's scene has Brando which just elevates the whole thing to another level.
That said, the best way to present the sequence is Lester's take segueing into Donner when Clark inserts the crystal.
It's the best of both worlds really.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 24, 2017 21:25:29 GMT -5
I have to say that the Donner repower scene is better than Lester's on balance. Yes, the "I failed" soliloquy is superior in Lester's take, but Donner's scene has Brando which just elevates the whole thing to another level. That said, the best way to present the sequence is Lester's take segueing into Donner when Clark inserts the crystal. It's the best of both worlds really. While I liked the Mank script, if the only takes that were done were done in this manner, then I think that solution is the best of both, I'd have to agree. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Nov 25, 2017 0:21:04 GMT -5
Well in my cut of Superman II (lost forever on my old computer unfortunately) this is how my re-power went.
Lester's I failed scene played with LOTR music (Gandalf falls)
After Clark says "i failed" we hear Jonathan Kent "one thing I know son, you are here for a reason"
Then Clark screams father!
Then after the close up of the green crystal we cut to Donner's Clark inserting the crystal into the bank (darkened fortress).
Then as soon as the crystal is inserted the music cuts to Thornes's "The green crystal"
I also used Selutron's shot of Jor-El appearing (slowed down to time with the green crystal music)
Then the scene plays normally (with darkened fortress)
But after Jor-El says "remember me my son" the music cuts to Gladiator's "Honor Him"
I really need to remake this cut I did...
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Post by Kamdan on Nov 25, 2017 1:40:28 GMT -5
I was also bothered by what appeared to be red paint coming from Clark’s nose instead of blood which was convincing looking in the diner scene.
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Post by atp on Nov 25, 2017 2:23:39 GMT -5
Was it the poor performances in this repowering scene which caused Gandy to lose faith and interest in supermancinema?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Nov 25, 2017 7:07:10 GMT -5
For years that Donner/Brando footage was the holy grail of Superman movie material. I remember when everyone thought it was going to be the second coming. Then it was released and...wasn't. It was great to finally see it but it was never going to live up to everyone's expectations after being speculated on over and over for so long.
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Post by atp on Nov 25, 2017 7:33:22 GMT -5
For years that Donner/Brando footage was the holy grail of Superman movie material. I remember when everyone thought it was going to be the second coming. Then it was released and...wasn't. It was great to finally see it but it was never going to live up to everyone's expectations after being speculated on over and over for so long. I think it could have lived up to expectations if the acting and editing had been better. It just wasn't very good. 9 Had it been to the same standard as Jor El's farewell scene on Krypton, I think it would have been received much better. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Nov 25, 2017 8:11:30 GMT -5
There was really nothing wrong with the new Donner footage it was actually great I thought.. some of the Reeve stuff with Brando was a little rough but that was to be expected given the production schedule. The real problem is that over the years Gandy believed that more Donner footage was shot than there actually was. He believed that Blank Bullets, the souflee scene, and home movies were all shot by Donner... crucial scenes for the film's middle act. Unfortunately we found out that Donner basically never shot the second act of Superman II  I think some even speculated at one point that virtually all of Donner's Superman II was filmed with the exception of the SFX work. There were even rumors of Donner shooting a love sequence between Lois and Kal-El that was X-Rated!!!! The whole "lost" Donner Superman II took on a life of it's own and, (sadly) we fanboys were blind to the reality that the Salkinds did not just throw away a completed Donner Superman II.. that Superman II didn't exist and never did. All the Salkinds really did was take Donner's 2/3rds of a film, add a new action opener which bumped Lois jumping to act 2, putting a new ending and get rid of Brando. |
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Post by atp on Nov 25, 2017 10:33:31 GMT -5
Is it possible that everything was filmed, but Thau couldnt find it?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 25, 2017 15:52:48 GMT -5
I was also bothered by what appeared to be red paint coming from Clark’s nose instead of blood which was convincing looking in the diner scene. I thought about that too! I do wonder if it was digitally applied to cover up continuity errors... |
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