Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 27, 2020 20:36:28 GMT -5
deadline.com/2020/05/man-of-steel-henry-cavill-superman-warner-bros-1202945025/While I’m ready to see Cavill move on to give someone new a chance this rumor does make sense. Chances for MOS 2 slim right now but he could show up in Shazam 2 or Black Adam. He’s represented by the same agency as The Rock. Put him in one of those to rebuild excitement for the character and see where it goes from there? It makes sense and I think if Cavill has lowered his demands its easier for WB to do that than MOS 2 right bow.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2020 4:36:51 GMT -5
I think I'm getting burnout on Superman recasting...
Suprisingly, I'm a bit apathetic at this point- If it's not going to be Routh, then why not Cavill?
Cavill I put ahead of the guy playing him on tv- (nothing against the guy personally, but I just don't feel like it's good casting).
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 28, 2020 8:41:54 GMT -5
I’m no fan of recasting either but Cavill had three shots at it. That’s more than some actors get. I’d rather they give someone else a chance with a whole new version of the character with a clean slate than be stuck with a version with a poor history and an actor that never quite clicked. I’d blame the material but he got different material with Whedon and still seemed bland.
Meanwhile Routh came back looking better than ever so that made Cavill look even worse imo. As for Hoechlin I thought he brought more personality to the role than Cavill as well. It’s a shame it’s so hard to reboot the entire DCEU. WB probably would’ve been doing it soon if it weren’t for a couple of hits.
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atp
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Post by atp on May 28, 2020 15:33:50 GMT -5
I think I'm getting burnout on Superman recasting... Suprisingly, I'm a bit apathetic at this point- If it's not going to be Routh, then why not Cavill? Cavill I put ahead of the guy playing him on tv- (nothing against the guy personally, but I just don't feel like it's good casting). I'd prefer Routh actually. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2020 17:09:40 GMT -5
Routh is the Reeve successor- of course I would prefer Routh first, but if they're not going to...
Then (barring some amazing choice that I don't know about that's better) Cavill is the fallback I feel.... rather than going with another new face with a new history-
That's my problem with Pattinson as well- he might be great, but the reboots are just too fast imo to make me that invested in starting all over again (unless it'll blow me away with how good it is)-
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 28, 2020 17:42:34 GMT -5
Cavills version of the character was handicapped by the material but then again you could say the same thing about Routh. Yet when they both got another chance to play a more traditional lighter Superman I think Routh nailed it while Cavill still lacked something. Again neither of them had the best circumstances even in their last appearances (which were more supporting roles) but there’s also something intrinsic about the actor as far as working as the character. Routh and Hoechlin have, to me, just highlighted that Cavill has the looks but he’s missing the charm and the ease of the character. That’s just my opinion though.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2020 19:28:39 GMT -5
Cavills version of the character was handicapped by the material but then again you could say the same thing about Routh. Yet when they both got another chance to play a more traditional lighter Superman I think Routh nailed it while Cavill still lacked something. Again neither of them had the best circumstances even in their last appearances (which were more supporting roles) but there’s also something intrinsic about the actor as far as working as the character. Routh and Hoechlin have, to me, just highlighted that Cavill has the looks but he’s missing the charm and the ease of the character. That’s just my opinion though. Again- Routh is first choice. I'm open to being impressed by a new face if he fits as good as or better.... but it could also be worse... |
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Post by EnriqueH on Aug 5, 2020 21:54:32 GMT -5
I haven’t see SR or MOS in years but Smallville has reignited my Superman fanaticism to a degree for the first time in a long time, probably not since the pre-release of SR. So I’ve been wanting to check out all the Superman stuff out there including MOS.
I did see part of Batman v Superman recently. And while I know that it’s a controversial film, I semi-enjoyed it in the theater but didn’t like how Snyder treated Superman.
More specifically, I don’t care for Cavill’s portrayal. Except for his role as a villain in Mission Impossible, I can’t say that I’m impressed with Cavill as an actor overall anyway.
He definitely LOOKS like Superman. I mean, it’s uncanny how Supermanish he looks. But the portrayal just doesn’t seem like Superman.
It used to be that I liked ALL of the Superman actors kinda like how I enjoy all the Bond actors, but Cavill is the first Superman I flat out don’t like. I still want to rewatch MOS and BvS properly and I still haven’t seen JL, so I’ll try to keep an open mind but that’s how I feel about it now.
As for Routh, I liked him ok. He didn’t blow me away but he passed. Part of the problem is that his Superman didn’t talk much. Routh didn’t have a lot of acting experience and I could easily see that Singer was trying to work around that. So we got a Superman that wasn’t very expressive or talkative.
Neither Cavill or Routh seemed as natural in the role as Welling. With Cavill, I blame the material, with Routh his inexperience (and partially the material). But neither guy nailed it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 6, 2020 0:16:17 GMT -5
I haven’t see SR or MOS in years but Smallville has reignited my Superman fanaticism to a degree for the first time in a long time, probably not since the pre-release of SR. So I’ve been wanting to check out all the Superman stuff out there including MOS. I did see part of Batman v Superman recently. And while I know that it’s a controversial film, I semi-enjoyed it in the theater but didn’t like how Snyder treated Superman. More specifically, I don’t care for Cavill’s portrayal. Except for his role as a villain in Mission Impossible, I can’t say that I’m impressed with Cavill as an actor overall anyway. He definitely LOOKS like Superman. I mean, it’s uncanny how Supermanish he looks. But the portrayal just doesn’t seem like Superman. It used to be that I liked ALL of the Superman actors kinda like how I enjoy all the Bond actors, but Cavill is the first Superman I flat out don’t like. I still want to rewatch MOS and BvS properly and I still haven’t seen JL, so I’ll try to keep an open mind but that’s how I feel about it now. As for Routh, I liked him ok. He didn’t blow me away but he passed. Part of the problem is that his Superman didn’t talk much. Routh didn’t have a lot of acting experience and I could easily see that Singer was trying to work around that. So we got a Superman that wasn’t very expressive or talkative. Neither Cavill or Routh seemed as natural in the role as Welling. With Cavill, I blame the material, with Routh his inexperience (and partially the material). But neither guy nailed it. I sort of agree.... Reeve is a hard (if not impossible) act to follow. 99 percent I feel is genetics. Both have strong looks that could work for Superman. Cavill is a good actor, but the script and direction I feel failed him. Routh's natural qualities I think fits Superman very well. I thought his Clark Kent was stronger than his Superman, but the looks and voice sound amazingly like Reeve to me. Between the two, I prefer Routh, and don't know of any other living actor that could fit closer in the Reeve mold.... Welling's unwillingness to put on the suit actually irritates me as it feels like vanity over committment to the role... but, I guess it was his right to make conditions, but still... |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 6, 2020 12:58:52 GMT -5
@cam ,Enrique and Metallo
I think there were snippets of Cavill's potential to be a more "traditional" Supes in the theatrical DOJ.
It was never fully realised of course.
Might be interesting to see if the Snyder cut actually regresses Cavill back to the way Supes was portrayed in MOS and BVS.
Overall I have to agree with Metallo and say that (IMHO) Cavill simply did not have the acting chops to pull it off irrespective of the quality of the script(or Snyder's direction).
Just looking at some of Cavill's other work--at least the ones I have personally seen---(The Tudors, Immortal,The Count Of Monte Christo,The Cold Light Of Day,The Man From UNCLE ect) I have to say there is not one performance that really stands out from Cavill…...his performances are fairly one dimensional and there is a distinct lack of charisma being expressed.
And unfortunately those aspects perforated his Superman portrayal too(IMHO).
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2020 16:15:36 GMT -5
The best work I’ve seen from Cavill recently was Mission Impossible Fallout and that was only because that franchise is a well oiled machine, McQuarrie is a damn good writer, and Cruise expects everyone to bring their best. Beyond that he’s usually a plank.
I think the closest he got to showing a personality as Superman was in Justice League but by then the damage to the character was already done. The movie wasn’t salvageable under those circumstances and the awful cgi face just made things worse. If Whedon had been allowed to work with Cavill from day one from scratch maybe he could have been better.
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Post by EnriqueH on Aug 6, 2020 16:55:48 GMT -5
I haven’t see SR or MOS in years but Smallville has reignited my Superman fanaticism to a degree for the first time in a long time, probably not since the pre-release of SR. So I’ve been wanting to check out all the Superman stuff out there including MOS. I did see part of Batman v Superman recently. And while I know that it’s a controversial film, I semi-enjoyed it in the theater but didn’t like how Snyder treated Superman. More specifically, I don’t care for Cavill’s portrayal. Except for his role as a villain in Mission Impossible, I can’t say that I’m impressed with Cavill as an actor overall anyway. He definitely LOOKS like Superman. I mean, it’s uncanny how Supermanish he looks. But the portrayal just doesn’t seem like Superman. It used to be that I liked ALL of the Superman actors kinda like how I enjoy all the Bond actors, but Cavill is the first Superman I flat out don’t like. I still want to rewatch MOS and BvS properly and I still haven’t seen JL, so I’ll try to keep an open mind but that’s how I feel about it now. As for Routh, I liked him ok. He didn’t blow me away but he passed. Part of the problem is that his Superman didn’t talk much. Routh didn’t have a lot of acting experience and I could easily see that Singer was trying to work around that. So we got a Superman that wasn’t very expressive or talkative. Neither Cavill or Routh seemed as natural in the role as Welling. With Cavill, I blame the material, with Routh his inexperience (and partially the material). But neither guy nailed it. I sort of agree.... Reeve is a hard (if not impossible) act to follow. . You know, I actually don’t compare Reeve to other Superman actors. It’s like Connery is my favorite Bond but I looooooove Roger Moore. Two totally different takes on the character and equally enjoyable. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 7, 2020 19:17:16 GMT -5
The best work I’ve seen from Cavill recently was Mission Impossible Fallout and that was only because that franchise is a well oiled machine, McQuarrie is a darn good writer, and Cruise expects everyone to bring their best. Beyond that he’s usually a plank. I think the closest he got to showing a personality as Superman was in Justice League but by then the damage to the character was already done. The movie wasn’t salvageable under those circumstances and the awful cgi face just made things worse. If Whedon had been allowed to work with Cavill from day one from scratch maybe he could have been better. Just watched Cavill's first film...Laguna. It was made in 2001 when he was just 17. It does not help that his voice has been semi dubbed(it was an Italian-French-US) production. What I see is an actor who is hired more for the way he looks than how he acts. I think this trend continued in The Count From Monte Christo(2002)......and possibly into his next subsequent couple of films. To be fair......I have never really chased down Reeve's portrayals on Love Of Life on youtube. When he did Love Of Life,Reeve was already a bit older than Cavill(when he made Laguna/Christo) ...roughly 22/23 years of age. Will try and seek them out(Reeve on Love Of Life)...….but one thing is abundantly clear......Reeve was a classically trained actor. My assumption is that Reeve will give a more nuanced/effective performance in Love Of Life(albeit confined by the limitations of a soap) than Cavill does in Laguna. In fact if you check out Reeve's interviews with Petrou or other talks he gave to the media prior to STM's debut....he was very resolute about his acting pedigree and background.....almost feeling insulted when people would say that he was "coming out of nowhere". It's actually interesting that it was not Reeve's looks(the fact that he was too thin ect) that got Donner's/Stalmaster's attention......but his performance. Contrast that with Routh(who had practically no acting experience at that point in his career) and Cavill….who seemed to have both been summoned principally, on looks alone. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 8, 2020 14:52:22 GMT -5
The best work I’ve seen from Cavill recently was Mission Impossible Fallout and that was only because that franchise is a well oiled machine, McQuarrie is a darn good writer, and Cruise expects everyone to bring their best. Beyond that he’s usually a plank. I think the closest he got to showing a personality as Superman was in Justice League but by then the damage to the character was already done. The movie wasn’t salvageable under those circumstances and the awful cgi face just made things worse. If Whedon had been allowed to work with Cavill from day one from scratch maybe he could have been better. Just watched Cavill's first film...Laguna. It was made in 2001 when he was just 17. It does not help that his voice has been semi dubbed(it was an Italian-French-US) production. What I see is an actor who is hired more for the way he looks than how he acts. I think this trend continued in The Count From Monte Christo(2002)......and possibly into his next subsequent couple of films. To be fair......I have never really chased down Reeve's portrayals on Love Of Life on youtube. When he did Love Of Life,Reeve was already a bit older than Cavill(when he made Laguna/Christo) ...roughly 22/23 years of age. Will try and seek them out(Reeve on Love Of Life)...….but one thing is abundantly clear......Reeve was a classically trained actor. My assumption is that Reeve will give a more nuanced/effective performance in Love Of Life(albeit confined by the limitations of a soap) than Cavill does in Laguna. In fact if you check out Reeve's interviews with Petrou or other talks he gave to the media prior to STM's debut....he was very resolute about his acting pedigree and background.....almost feeling insulted when people would say that he was "coming out of nowhere". It's actually interesting that it was not Reeve's looks(the fact that he was too thin ect) that got Donner's/Stalmaster's attention......but his performance. Contrast that with Routh(who had practically no acting experience at that point in his career) and Cavill….who seemed to have both been summoned principally, on looks alone. From reading Reeve's memoirs and seeing the interviews, it seems very much early on he might have had a bit of him that was a 'theatre snob'- not a bad guy, but someone who took a lot of pride in theatre training/whatnot---- method, etc.---- so to read/hear that Margot was the opposite -didn't take too much too seriously- and just said what was on her mind .... two very different personalities, guess not suprised that they fought a lot on set from their different backgrounds. But I also do believe that they ended up with a love for each other that was probably very much like brother/sister who fought but still at some level cared for each other. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 8, 2020 16:48:43 GMT -5
@cam What you say is all true......but that dynamic between Kidder and Reeve helped to accentuate their chemistry. Actually your point about Kidder and Reeve made me realise that with regards to Reeve , Routh and Cavill……..all 3 of them technically had less screen acting experience than their corresponding leading ladies(Kidder, Bosworth and Adams) at the time of making those 1st films respectively(STM,SR & MOS). Bosworth practically slamdunked Routh for acting experience in 2005. Adams had much greater material under her belt than Cavill in 2011/12. And whilst Kidder had been in more film roles than Reeve by 1977...….Reeve did have an exceptionally strong background in theater(for a young actor)…...that could offset his "cinema acting experience" deficit relative to Kidder....and the results are there for all to see.  My personal point being that whatever happens in the future to a Superman film franchise...….they need a strong character actor to take the helm in the role of Supes......and we have not had that since since Reeve. All we have had is guys who look the part.....and that is not enough. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 9, 2020 10:40:56 GMT -5
@cam What you say is all true......but that dynamic between Kidder and Reeve helped to accentuate their chemistry. Actually your point about Kidder and Reeve made me realise that with regards to Reeve , Routh and Cavill……..all 3 of them technically had less screen acting experience than their corresponding leading ladies(Kidder, Bosworth and Adams) at the time of making those 1st films respectively(STM,SR & MOS). Bosworth practically slamdunked Routh for acting experience in 2005. Adams had much greater material under her belt than Cavill in 2011/12. And whilst Kidder had been in more film roles than Reeve by 1977...….Reeve did have an exceptionally strong background in theater(for a young actor)…...that could offset his "cinema acting experience" deficit relative to Kidder....and the results are there for all to see. My personal point being that whatever happens in the future to a Superman film franchise...….they need a strong character actor to take the helm in the role of Supes......and we have not had that since since Reeve. All we have had is guys who look the part.....and that is not enough. You’re right. I think it worked for their characters. Reeve was very serious about things as Superman should be. Lois and Kidder not so much. Like how she laughed at his line about fighting for truth justice and the American way. She was more experienced than him when it came to film acting. It’s also interesting to note that most of the women who have played Lois in the last 40 + years were older than the men who have played Clark. Smallville and SR are the exceptions but Kidder, Hatcher, Adams, and Tulloch were all older than their leading (Super)men. I think it helps play into the idea of Lois being more worldly, experienced, and cynical than the naive Clark. It’s to the point where I actually like the idea of Lois being at least a little bit older. It makes sense. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 9, 2020 10:45:15 GMT -5
The best work I’ve seen from Cavill recently was Mission Impossible Fallout and that was only because that franchise is a well oiled machine, McQuarrie is a darn good writer, and Cruise expects everyone to bring their best. Beyond that he’s usually a plank. I think the closest he got to showing a personality as Superman was in Justice League but by then the damage to the character was already done. The movie wasn’t salvageable under those circumstances and the awful cgi face just made things worse. If Whedon had been allowed to work with Cavill from day one from scratch maybe he could have been better. Just watched Cavill's first film...Laguna. It was made in 2001 when he was just 17. It does not help that his voice has been semi dubbed(it was an Italian-French-US) production. What I see is an actor who is hired more for the way he looks than how he acts. I think this trend continued in The Count From Monte Christo(2002)......and possibly into his next subsequent couple of films. To be fair......I have never really chased down Reeve's portrayals on Love Of Life on youtube. When he did Love Of Life,Reeve was already a bit older than Cavill(when he made Laguna/Christo) ...roughly 22/23 years of age. Will try and seek them out(Reeve on Love Of Life)...….but one thing is abundantly clear......Reeve was a classically trained actor. My assumption is that Reeve will give a more nuanced/effective performance in Love Of Life(albeit confined by the limitations of a soap) than Cavill does in Laguna. In fact if you check out Reeve's interviews with Petrou or other talks he gave to the media prior to STM's debut....he was very resolute about his acting pedigree and background.....almost feeling insulted when people would say that he was "coming out of nowhere". It's actually interesting that it was not Reeve's looks(the fact that he was too thin ect) that got Donner's/Stalmaster's attention......but his performance. Contrast that with Routh(who had practically no acting experience at that point in his career) and Cavill….who seemed to have both been summoned principally, on looks alone. No actor has been more praised as “great” in the role of Superman based purely on looks than Cavill. No one. The word is thrown around too easily anyway but I see so many people saying Cavill is a great Superman even if they don’t like the movies. They usually never really use any example of his acting or performance. It just comes down to how much he looks part (even when they don’t say it). |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 9, 2020 16:43:30 GMT -5
@cam What you say is all true......but that dynamic between Kidder and Reeve helped to accentuate their chemistry. Actually your point about Kidder and Reeve made me realise that with regards to Reeve , Routh and Cavill……..all 3 of them technically had less screen acting experience than their corresponding leading ladies(Kidder, Bosworth and Adams) at the time of making those 1st films respectively(STM,SR & MOS). Bosworth practically slamdunked Routh for acting experience in 2005. Adams had much greater material under her belt than Cavill in 2011/12. And whilst Kidder had been in more film roles than Reeve by 1977...….Reeve did have an exceptionally strong background in theater(for a young actor)…...that could offset his "cinema acting experience" deficit relative to Kidder....and the results are there for all to see. My personal point being that whatever happens in the future to a Superman film franchise...….they need a strong character actor to take the helm in the role of Supes......and we have not had that since since Reeve. All we have had is guys who look the part.....and that is not enough. You’re right. I think it worked for their characters. Reeve was very serious about things as Superman should be. Lois and Kidder not so much. Like how she laughed at his line about fighting for truth justice and the American way. She was more experienced than him when it came to film acting. It’s also interesting to note that most of the women who have played Lois in the last 40 + years were older than the men who have played Clark. Smallville and SR are the exceptions but Kidder, Hatcher, Adams, and Tulloch were all older than their leading (Super)men. I think it helps play into the idea of Lois being more worldly, experienced, and cynical than the naive Clark. It’s to the point where I actually like the idea of Lois being at least a little bit older. It makes sense. Yes it's not something I have strictly noticed before.....but I think you are right, Kidder's world wieryness payed well against Reeve's innocence....definitely a nice contrast in character traits. I also think the interesting thing with regards to Reeve is the chronology of his film career.....in the sense he effectively played Superman first(at least in terms of having exposure). Just hypothesise ,in an alternate universe, if you will(!) that Reeve had starred in films like Deathtrap, The Bostonians and Somewhere In Time(I pick these 3 because IMHO they are fine films in their own right) BEFORE playing Superman. Also imagine that in those other films he was thin(like he was in Love Of Life). In such a hypothetical scenario ,I personally would have probably said that from a physical standpoint.....I would struggle to see him in the role(as Supe's)…...but from an acting standpoint......I would definitely see the potential to convey an effective portrayal of the Man Of Steel. In fact Hackman said as much in the making of STM documentary......that when he first met Reeve he struggled to see how Reeve would pull it off......but the minute he saw Reeve at work he was in no doubt about the actor's talent. With Routh and Cavill…. I would have said the opposite!.....they definitely look the part......but their intrinsic acting skills were "variable"...to put it mildly. And that is essentially what we got......irrespective of the quality of directing or the script that both Cavill and Routh had to endure......they just did not quite get the character itself. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 9, 2020 18:38:28 GMT -5
The age difference between Reeve and Kidder might not have been that much (I assume), but the heavy smoking or something must have contributed to Kidder's looking remarkedly older with the Lester footage.... by the time SIV swung around, I found it a bit painful to see Kidder to play Lois (in half of the scenes) as if she were still that younger LOis in STM. I think there would have been a way to write/direct it as a still-funny and charming older Lois, but the difference in age I think just got more pronounced by SIV.
Post-Donner/Reeve, I've mainly enjoyed parts of Lois and Clark as an alternate tv version, the Superboy series with Gerard Christopher- the ultimate Superboy imo, episodes of Smallville, and SR with Routh and the semi-finale with CRisis.
With Cavill and MOS- I don't mind Cavill at all... (though on a superficial level his nose bugs me now and then- though I shouldn't say anything as I should be lucky to have 1/10th of his looks!) - he feels more like Superman presence-wise than the guy on Supergirl that plays him...
But...
Unless they totally re-do the origin story all over again, everything with Cavill is tainted with MOS. At best (Justice League's attempt at rewriting him)- one can temporarily forget his movie origins, but it's hard to see him as a 'definitive' Superman actor because of MOS.
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