Can a super-dentist fly in 1979?

[crazy_asian_man]

Viewed the Joblo video and came across the famous image of the dentist who almost became Superman-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wstiU4gK4I

And got me thinking:
If Donner had still directed, but the dentist as Superman a 'lock', would it still get a 'passing' grade?

To me, everything else might have still been fine- but to me, it's like Scarlett Johansen as Black Widow perhaps. I never QUITE buy Scarjo as Widow, but I roll with it even as a part me denies it.
Assuming Donner could have gotten a good performance, but.... would it have bombed or been 'ok' but not quite great?

Thoughts?

[Kamdan]

I’ve recently been on a kick thinking about Burt Reynolds as Superman. That’s who David Newman said he had in mind when they were rewriting Mario Puzo’s script. He obviously wouldn’t have had Christopher Reeve’s characterization, but Reynolds could have been a successor to George Reeves.

[crazy_asian_man]

Burt Reynolds? Hm.... interesting...

Out of the superstars considered before Reeve- I do think Robert Redford might have done 'ok' as Superman (well, better than Gene Hackman as Superman or Paul Newman)- but he might have been better suited to Captain America when he was younger.

In looking at superhero cinema now versus then-

It's also interesting to think that for so long no actor WANTED to be a superhero, thinking it would be career death..... and now, just the opposite...

[Kamdan]

I just can’t picture Redford with black hair or Superman as blonde.

I know it’s a stretch for Reynolds because of his iconic mustache and all, but I’m picturing him when he was in Deliverance. His physique would have been just right for the character.

Newman’s full quote was, “We did not want to be camp. We had to present this character who was truth, justice and the American way, but not someone who was going to be a Boy Scout. We needed someone who you would see seriously as an action figure, but there had to be a little bit of playfulness, a wink. The take we had then was Burt Reynolds; the Burt Reynolds then, who was at the peak of his career. He had this thing where he would wink at you and say, ‘I’m having fun here, folks,’ but then you’d like it anyway when he punched somebody out. We’re talking about the Burt Reynolds of The Longest Yard. So we wrote Superman with Burt Reynolds in mind.”

Of course, I can’t picture Reynolds in Donner’s sense of verisimilitude, but had the Salkinds went through with Guy Hamilton directing the Newman and Benton revised script, this the only way I think it could have been pulled off. There was indeed much reluctance to actors doing comic book material, but the appeal here was that it was gonna be a big budget motion picture with a script from the author of The Godfathet. That’s why the Salkinds spent the big bucks so that they would actually read it and not get the door slammed in their face right away.

One of the earlier drafts of the scripts had the following casting suggestions listed once Brando and Hackman were signed on:
Susan Blakeley as Lois Lane
Madeline Kahn as Eve Teschmacher
Art Carney as Albert
Jack Weston as Otis
Christopher Lee as General Zod
Ursula Andress as Ursa
Paul Williams as Jack El
Raquel Welch as Lara
Jason Robards as Perry White
Ron Howard as Jimmy Olsen

[Metallo]

Dec 6, 2020 15:28:40 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Viewed the Joblo video and came across the famous image of the dentist who almost became Superman-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wstiU4gK4I

And got me thinking:
If Donner had still directed, but the dentist as Superman a 'lock', would it still get a 'passing' grade?

To me, everything else might have still been fine- but to me, it's like Scarlett Johansen as Black Widow perhaps. I never QUITE buy Scarjo as Widow, but I roll with it even as a part me denies it.
Assuming Donner could have gotten a good performance, but.... would it have bombed or been 'ok' but not quite great?

Thoughts?

Can’t polish a turd...or at least it’s very very difficult. Not that the guy was a turd but not everyone can work in a role like that even with the best directors. If the lead hadn’t worked the movie wouldn’t have worked beyond some visual spectacle. It would have otherwise come off as a farce since the whole thing rests on the Superman character. Basically a big budget SNL skit.

[Kamdan]

Can’t polish a turd...or at least it’s very very difficult. Not that the guy was a turd but not everyone can work in a role like that even with the best directors. If the lead hadn’t worked the movie wouldn’t have worked beyond some visual spectacle. It would have otherwise come off as a farce since the whole thing rests on the Superman character. Basically a big budget SNL skit.

Makes me think of Flash Gordon (1980).

[Metallo]

Any number of movies really. Hercules In New York. It’s biggest entertainment value is based on the fact that Arnold couldn’t act at all. That only added to the absurdity. It was like watching some old serials or cheap 90s action movies where they got athletes to play the heroes just because they had the physical prowess.

Flash Gordon works as a campy satire but I’m not sure Dino even understood what his end product was unlike something like Starship Troopers where the fact that the leads were such limited actors was intentional and worked for the movie.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 9, 2020 15:21:55 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Any number of movies really. Hercules In New York. It’s biggest entertainment value is based on the fact that Arnold couldn’t act at all. That only added to the absurdity. It was like watching some old serials or cheap 90s action movies where they got athletes to play the heroes just because they had the physical prowess.

Flash Gordon works as a campy satire but I’m not sure Dino even understood what his end product was unlike something like Starship Troopers where the fact that the leads were such limited actors was intentional and worked for the movie.

As an aside:

Ahnuld's achievement in American (and then worldwide) movies in hindsight really is even more amazing. He played to his strengths and what should have been a giant limitation, he mostly worked around by making smart choices moviewise (I guess you could say the same for Tom Cruise though of course the barriers Ahnuld had would have seemed insurmountable at the time.)

Flash Gordon I hated at the time for not taking itself seriously, but have enjoyed it as a guilty over-the-top pleasure since then. (Even though Blade Runner is far more respectable, I admit the goofy upbeat Flash Gordon is a better pick me up than Blade years later.)

Starship Troopers really was all Paul Verhoeven--- (As well as Robocop and to a degree Total Recall)- The 'off' sequels (even with some of the same actors) and failed reboots really prove there's a certain energy and twisted quality that Verhoeven has that is impossible to replicate, even as filmmakers have tried.

If Verhoeven had directed Superman with the dentist as the lead?

I don't know WHAT the heck we'd get, but it's fascinating to think about.... (Though part of my brain is going to a similar place it did with Nick Cage and Tim Burton doing a Superman film...)

[Metallo]

I like Flash Gordon for what it is but it’s clear there were disagreements by the people making it on what it was going to be. It’s not my ideal Flash Gordon movie but it’s this really unique product of its time. It’s that bizarre oddity appeal that works for it.

Arnold applied the same mindset to movies as he did to bodybuilding. He’s never been a great actor and he knows it but was motivated and worked with what he had. He was always willing to listen and learn if someone had some good advice to offer or a truly creative take on something. It’s why he was so eager to work with directors like Paul Verhoeven. All that and his ego was as such that he wasn’t going to fail.

What Verhoeven brought to starship troopers was his outsider POV. Who better to give an interesting comment on America than an outsider? Combine that with his sometimes frenzied sometimes wild man style and you’ve got something totally it’s own. Its so extreme it somehow rides that line between horrific and comical perfectly. It’s that energy you’re talking about.

[atp]

I love the 1980 Flash Gordon movie. For some reason, it just worked.

I would rate it as a 10/10 simply because it achieved what it set out to do. It's a classic.

It was only the second movie (first was STM) that truly felt like a comic book come to life. And the casting was just perfect. I can't think of any characters that could have been better cast.

Only tiny "complaint" is that Sam Jones wasn't brought back for voice dubbing, and so someone else's voice is used.

[crazy_asian_man]

Delaurentis gave us Flash Gordon and Dune by Lynch... wish they boyh got sequels.... but oh well...

[Metallo]

It’s such an obvious dub job they did on Sam Jones too. I never noticed when I was a kid but now I can’t not hear it.

One of the problems with Flash Gordon, as much as I enjoy it as a cult camp classic, is Dino DeLaurentiis was obviously trying to recreate the success of Star Wars and Superman at once but didn’t understand either one of them.

Conan was arguably his next attempt at that kind of ongoing fantasy franchise but as Conan The Destroyer and Red Sonja showed he didn’t understand what he had there either.

Then he tried to get his Star Wars yet again with Dune and...well...

[Kamdan]

Dec 11, 2020 9:10:31 GMT -5 Metallo said:

IOne of the problems with Flash Gordon, as much as I enjoy it as a cult camp classic, is Dino DeLaurentiis was obviously trying to recreate the success of Star Wars and Superman at once but didn’t understand either one of them.

Exactly. This is the main reason I brought this one up. We can enjoy for what it is, but the potential was so great. Nicolas Roeg’s original concept with Michael Allin’s script sounded much more interesting than what we ended up with Lorenzo Semple Jr. rewriting the script. I hope more light in shed on it in the upcoming making of book. You could say that this movie was given the Superman II treatment.

Jones severely paled in comparison to Buster Crabbe. We’re lucky this situation didn’t happen with Superman. They wanted an actor and not someone from The Dating Show who happened to look like the character. I just shudder at the thought of Reeve being dubbed over in the same manner.

[Metallo]

The fact that they hired Semple at all shows they had no clue. I’m a huge fan of the mans work earlier in his career but not only was he past it by the 80s but if you use him it’s got to be the right kind of project. Never Say Never Again wasn’t as campy as what we ended up with on Flash Gordon but he was never the right fit for that movie either. If they were trying to recreate Diamonds Are Forever’s style in the 80s ok but that movie was pretty weak even in 1971 and NSNA never should have been anything like it.