CapedWonder Imagery of the Day...

[capedwonder]

New York City, July 1977.

[booshman]

Wonderful picture Jim.

[capedwonder]

An original Kodak Instant camera photo created by Ned Beatty during the filming of a cut Lex Luthor's lair scene in Superman: The Movie.

[capedwonder]

Ilya and Richard.

Attachments:

[dejan]

Jan 12, 2021 21:16:54 GMT -5 capedwonder said:

Ilya and Richard.

Thanks Jim

If only those 2 chaps had remained friendly as depicted in that photo.......we would have an entirely different SII!

[Kamdan]

Jan 13, 2021 4:11:07 GMT -5 dejan said:

If only those 2 chaps had remained friendly as depicted in that photo.......we would have an entirely different SII!

This apparent demeanor displayed here is what confused Salkind in the first place. He thought all bygones were bygones by the time of the premiere of the first film and then suddenly Donner is claiming to the press, “If Pierre Spengler is the producer for Superman II, I’m not coming back.” Donner was convinced that Warners was gonna buy out the Salkinds’ stake in the franchise somehow but that never happened and that’s exactly why that “Your services are no longer required” telegram came to him.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 15, 2021 3:48:21 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Jan 13, 2021 4:11:07 GMT -5 dejan said:

If only those 2 chaps had remained friendly as depicted in that photo.......we would have an entirely different SII!

This apparent demeanor displayed here is what confused Salkind in the first place. He thought all bygones were bygones by the time of the premiere of the first film and then suddenly Donner is claiming to the press, “If Pierre Spengler is the producer for Superman II, I’m not coming back.” Donner was convinced that Warners was gonna buy out the Salkinds’ stake in the franchise somehow but that never happened and that’s exactly why that “Your services are no longer required” telegram came to him.

I do wonder if Lester actually TRIED to keep to the original Mank script and Donner's original vision and not go off the rails... if Donner would have been more forgiving at the end?

[Kamdan]

I do wonder if Lester actually TRIED to keep to the original Mank script and Donner's original vision and not go off the rails... if Donner would have been more forgiving at the end?

Donner’s animosity towards Lester was clearly fueled on the basis on a sense of betrayal. It’s never a good sign when another director comes on your set, especially when tensions are high. Donner must have used this situation as inspiration for the scene in Scrooged when John Glover’s character appears.

Speaking as a director of television programs, I can attest that it’s not the greatest thing to be told to imitate another director’s work. We also learned this was true when Joss Whedon took over Justice League and did not adapt his recognizable style despite Zack Snyder being listed as the sole director.

[dejan]

Jan 16, 2021 8:53:29 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I do wonder if Lester actually TRIED to keep to the original Mank script and Donner's original vision and not go off the rails... if Donner would have been more forgiving at the end?

Donner’s animosity towards Lester was clearly fueled on the basis on a sense of betrayal. It’s never a good sign when another director comes on your set, especially when tensions are high. Donner must have used this situation as inspiration for the scene in Scrooged when John Glover’s character appears.

Speaking as a director of television programs, I can attest that it’s not the greatest thing to be told to imitate another director’s work. We also learned this was true when Joss Whedon took over Justice League and did not adapt his recognizable style despite Zach Snyder being listed as the sole director.

All interesting stuff for sure.

I do wonder if there was some back door advanced collusion between Lester and the Salkinds during the final stages of STM's production in late 78'.

Because when it comes to STM's production, Lester made 2 key decisions.

Halting production on SII was Lester's idea......and then subsequently suggesting the transposition of SII' s climax(turning back time) onto STM's coda.

These 2 decisions favoured Lester's hand when it came to taking the reigns on SII.  

On edit:
Maybe Lester was not involved in the decision to turn the world back in STM.

Still, Lester's influence in shutting down production on SII.....would play to his advantage when it came to completing the sequel and claiming directorial credit.

Imagine if Donner had filmed the Washington, Niagra and Metropolis /NYC climax footage during the original shoot......there is no way that the Salkinds would have been in a position(financial and logistical) to fire Donner and then have to pay for all that stuff to be refilmed by someone else.

The timing of Lester's SII "moratorium"  decision during the STM-SII original shooting schedule was crucial for what would follow.

Donner was effectively fired from the moment that decision was made.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 16, 2021 8:53:29 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I do wonder if Lester actually TRIED to keep to the original Mank script and Donner's original vision and not go off the rails... if Donner would have been more forgiving at the end?

Donner’s animosity towards Lester was clearly fueled on the basis on a sense of betrayal. It’s never a good sign when another director comes on your set, especially when tensions are high. Donner must have used this situation as inspiration for the scene in Scrooged when John Glover’s character appears.

Speaking as a director of television programs, I can attest that it’s not the greatest thing to be told to imitate another director’s work. We also learned this was true when Joss Whedon took over Justice League and did not adapt his recognizable style despite Zach Snyder being listed as the sole director.

I guess the matter (in hindsight and from a 3rd party) can be looked at in with a few different thoughts:

(1) If they chose a 'hired hand' who never directed a film before and was told to 'just try to finish it the way Donner did, using the Mank script'--- with so much money at stake, if the producers felt that they couldn't really 'control' any director, that that would not be a viable route.

(2) If there were experienced directors who respected Donner's work- perhaps they wouldn't want to jump in OUT of respect for Donner, just like how Mank was asked to return but didn't out of loyalty to Donner.

(3) If they felt a safer was to get an established director of feature films- I think I'd read that they did try to get Guy Hamilton back, but Lester ended up being the one that ultimately ended up with it. I didn't object to the cheaper way of filming (though it could be felt here and there), as much as the unnecessary amount of changes to the script that Lester approved of that I didn't care for and felt undermined the sequel

(4) For me, it's fascinating that in Bryan Singer, you had a strong experienced director who WAS a fanboy of Donner's and WANTED to emulate him. I never felt Superman Returns was 100% solid, but highly underrated in that it's (as far as I know) a rare time where a solid director who had different options chose to basically remake and respect the original director's work while doing their own.

I guess it could be argued that maybe even Lester really thought he was making the best film possible out of two director's work.... it's a pity that we never got to hear his side of the story or that he never chose to share his side.

With Superman IV (Imo) not a good barometer because of the budget crunches, in reading Sydney Fury's comments on Superman III in going into Superman IV- It sounds like he had respect for Donner's work- I wonder with a proper budget behind him, what we would have gotten if Sydney Fury rather than Lester had been chosen to complete SII?

[Kamdan]

All interesting stuff for sure.

I do wonder if there was some back door advanced collusion between Lester and the Salkinds during the final stages of STM's production in late 78'.

Because when it comes to STM's production, Lester made 2 key decisions.

Halting production on SII was Lester's idea......and then subsequently suggesting the transposition of SII' s climax(turning back time) onto STM's coda.

These 2 decisions favoured Lester's hand when it came to taking the reigns on SII.

On edit:
Maybe Lester was not involved in the decision to turn the world back in STM.

Still, Lester's influence in shutting down production on SII.....would play to his advantage when it came to completing the sequel and claiming directorial credit.

Imagine if Donner had filmed the Washington, Niagra and Metropolis /NYC climax footage during the original shoot......there is no way that the Salkinds would have been in a position(financial and logistical) to fire Donner and then have to pay for all that stuff to be refilmed by someone else.

The timing of Lester's SII "moratorium" decision during the STM-SII original shooting schedule was crucial for what would follow.

Donner was effectively fired from the moment that decision was made.

Definitely more fuel to the fire of Donner’s reasons. He saw Lester as a liaison between him and the producers and possibly was very apprehensive at the thought of another director giving advice on his movie. There’s pictures of Lester around during the missile hijack scene and one could definitely see a similarity to that and his comedic material, so we could’ve been an influence as early as then.

When Donner eventually hit the wall and had to reason a way to justify his over-shooting and delays, Lester bringing up the idea of stopping production on II and changing the ending to accommodate made him extremely valuable to Donner. He probably pieced this together later as a devious plan to steal the movie away from him. I’m convinced that Donner was told by Warner Bros. that they were going to buy out the Salkinds and let him proceed without them but obviously it wasn’t true.

I guess the matter (in hindsight and from a 3rd party) can be looked at in with a few different thoughts:

(1) If they chose a 'hired hand' who never directed a film before and was told to 'just try to finish it the way Donner did, using the Mank script'--- with so much money at stake, if the producers felt that they couldn't really 'control' any director, that that would not be a viable route.

(2) If there were experienced directors who respected Donner's work- perhaps they wouldn't want to jump in OUT of respect for Donner, just like how Mank was asked to return but didn't out of loyalty to Donner.

(3) If they felt a safer was to get an established director of feature films- I think I'd read that they did try to get Guy Hamilton back, but Lester ended up being the one that ultimately ended up with it. I didn't object to the cheaper way of filming (though it could be felt here and there), as much as the unnecessary amount of changes to the script that Lester approved of that I didn't care for and felt undermined the sequel

(4) For me, it's fascinating that in Bryan Singer, you had a strong experienced director who WAS a fanboy of Donner's and WANTED to emulate him. I never felt Superman Returns was 100% solid, but highly underrated in that it's (as far as I know) a rare time where a solid director who had different options chose to basically remake and respect the original director's work while doing their own.

I guess it could be argued that maybe even Lester really thought he was making the best film possible out of two director's work.... it's a pity that we never got to hear his side of the story or that he never chose to share his side.

With Superman IV (Imo) not a good barometer because of the budget crunches, in reading Sydney Fury's comments on Superman III in going into Superman IV- It sounds like he had respect for Donner's work- I wonder with a proper budget behind him, what we would have gotten if Sydney Fury rather than Lester had been chosen to complete SII?

Lester was there because he previously helmed the Salkinds’ Three and Four Musketeers films. They obviously wanted him around so that he could observe what all was going on so that he could step in at a moment’s notice if the tensions amounted to Donner quitting or being fired while principal photography continued. They probably felt like there was enough of a break in the production of the two films to bring back their original director Guy Hamilton since this was a more complicated production than Lester probably wanted to handle. Hamilton probably wasn’t a fond of being asked to match some of the material already shot since a huge factor in what played into not reshooting everything entirely was that they could not get Gene Hackman to return. I believe I read once that they considered cutting out Luthor entirely but they must have figured out that narrative doesn’t quite work so Lester and company decided to only use what was necessary.

I would still like to see a source cited for when Donner was claiming that Lester took credit for the diner scenes. To me it seems rather petty since we’ve heard that apparently Lester asked him if he wanted to share directors credit and Donner firmly said he doesn’t share credit. I’m glad to see that since 2006, Donner in subsequent interviews and such at least acknowledges Richard Lester‘s name. As Terrence Stamp explained, he had a very complicated gig to pull off and undoubtedly felt uncomfortable taking over his movie knowing that the cast wasn’t happy about it. Especially since there was a lot of empty threats, namely from Jack O'Halloran, Who apparently stated that if Donner didn’t come back he wouldn’t come back.

That whole Singer situation still frustrates me to this day. He made an ugly looking film that killed any sort of connection with the Donner vision of Superman. It takes a lot more than a couple of stolen lines and references to make that work.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 16, 2021 19:16:36 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

All interesting stuff for sure.

I do wonder if there was some back door advanced collusion between Lester and the Salkinds during the final stages of STM's production in late 78'.

Because when it comes to STM's production, Lester made 2 key decisions.

Halting production on SII was Lester's idea......and then subsequently suggesting the transposition of SII' s climax(turning back time) onto STM's coda.

These 2 decisions favoured Lester's hand when it came to taking the reigns on SII.

On edit:
Maybe Lester was not involved in the decision to turn the world back in STM.

Still, Lester's influence in shutting down production on SII.....would play to his advantage when it came to completing the sequel and claiming directorial credit.

Imagine if Donner had filmed the Washington, Niagra and Metropolis /NYC climax footage during the original shoot......there is no way that the Salkinds would have been in a position(financial and logistical) to fire Donner and then have to pay for all that stuff to be refilmed by someone else.

The timing of Lester's SII "moratorium" decision during the STM-SII original shooting schedule was crucial for what would follow.

Donner was effectively fired from the moment that decision was made.

Definitely more fuel to the fire of Donner’s reasons. He saw Lester as a liaison between him and the producers and possibly was very apprehensive at the thought of another director giving advice on his movie. There’s pictures of Lester around during the missile hijack scene and one could definitely see a similarity to that and his comedic material, so we could’ve been an influence as early as then.

When Donner eventually hit the wall and had to reason a way to justify his over-shooting and delays, Lester bringing up the idea of stopping production on II and changing the ending to accommodate made him extremely valuable to Donner. He probably pieced this together later as a devious plan to steal the movie away from him. I’m convinced that Donner was told by Warner Bros. that they were going to buy out the Salkinds and let him proceed without them but obviously it wasn’t true.

I guess the matter (in hindsight and from a 3rd party) can be looked at in with a few different thoughts:

(1) If they chose a 'hired hand' who never directed a film before and was told to 'just try to finish it the way Donner did, using the Mank script'--- with so much money at stake, if the producers felt that they couldn't really 'control' any director, that that would not be a viable route.

(2) If there were experienced directors who respected Donner's work- perhaps they wouldn't want to jump in OUT of respect for Donner, just like how Mank was asked to return but didn't out of loyalty to Donner.

(3) If they felt a safer was to get an established director of feature films- I think I'd read that they did try to get Guy Hamilton back, but Lester ended up being the one that ultimately ended up with it. I didn't object to the cheaper way of filming (though it could be felt here and there), as much as the unnecessary amount of changes to the script that Lester approved of that I didn't care for and felt undermined the sequel

(4) For me, it's fascinating that in Bryan Singer, you had a strong experienced director who WAS a fanboy of Donner's and WANTED to emulate him. I never felt Superman Returns was 100% solid, but highly underrated in that it's (as far as I know) a rare time where a solid director who had different options chose to basically remake and respect the original director's work while doing their own.

I guess it could be argued that maybe even Lester really thought he was making the best film possible out of two director's work.... it's a pity that we never got to hear his side of the story or that he never chose to share his side.

With Superman IV (Imo) not a good barometer because of the budget crunches, in reading Sydney Fury's comments on Superman III in going into Superman IV- It sounds like he had respect for Donner's work- I wonder with a proper budget behind him, what we would have gotten if Sydney Fury rather than Lester had been chosen to complete SII?

Lester was there because he previously helmed the Salkinds’ Three and Four Musketeers films. They obviously wanted him around so that he could observe what all was going on so that he could step in at a moment’s notice if the tensions amounted to Donner quitting or being fired while principal photography continued. They probably felt like there was enough of a break in the production of the two films to bring back their original director Guy Hamilton since this was a more complicated production than Lester probably wanted to handle. Hamilton probably wasn’t a fond of being asked to match some of the material already shot since a huge factor in what played into not reshooting everything entirely was that they could not get Gene Hackman to return. I believe I read once that they considered cutting out Luthor entirely but they must have figured out that narrative doesn’t quite work so Lester and company decided to only use what was necessary.

I would still like to see a source cited for when Donner was claiming that Lester took credit for the diner scenes. To me it seems rather petty since we’ve heard that apparently Lester asked him if he wanted to share directors credit and Donner firmly said he doesn’t share credit. I’m glad to see that since 2006, Donner in subsequent interviews and such at least acknowledges Richard Lester‘s name. As Terrence Stamp explained, he had a very complicated gig to pull off and undoubtedly felt uncomfortable taking over his movie knowing that the cast wasn’t happy about it. Especially since there was a lot of empty threats, namely from Jack O'Halloran, Who apparently stated that if Donner didn’t come back he wouldn’t come back.

That whole Singer situation still frustrates me to this day. He made an ugly looking film that killed any sort of connection with the Donner vision of Superman. It takes a lot more than a couple of stolen lines and references to make that work.

I know a LOT of folks seem to hate Superman Returns, (I may be one of the only ones who enjoys it in my family) but there are enough parts that I really love about it... but I certainly don't feel it's perfect.

The thing with that one is: love or hate it, the easiest thing you would think for any director with an ego would be to reboot the movie series it from the ground up and not go through the headaches of trying to connect it to the Donner films at all and put his/her personal stamp on it .... so for the harder path to be chosen really made me feel like Singer was a giant fan of the Donner/Reeve films in actuality and not just lip service to it.

Though...

Similarly, I'm not crazy about "Watchmen" by Zack Snyder but that he used his clout to try to mimic the comic images and that world so faithfully (On a visual level) that I also have to give him credit for having the love for the source material at least, even if I disagree with how he translated it.

[crazy_asian_man]

I feel like the thread went off-topic, thought to redirect it to celebrate the fantastic website.
Thought to throw out favorite photos enjoyed at Caped Wonder and maybe share a blurb or thought or two.

I'm not saying this just because it's great that Jim Bowers checks in here- but Capedwonder is THE museum for Superman reeve movie material.

While I enjoy the behind the scenes, I also enjoy the unique photos that I've never seen anywhere that suggest a character moment or story.

My pick of the day:

[dejan]

Before VHS,laserdisc,BetaMax,DVD,Blu Ray,UHD ect..... there was only your memory to help stimulate and maintain a sense of aura about what you had just witnessed in the cinema......and for me this selection of photos from the inside sleeve of the LP from 78' was basically my way of rewatching STM until the aforementioned formats started to appear.......I always liked the way these photos were juxtaposed on the black background:  

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 18, 2021 17:11:48 GMT -5 dejan said:

Before VHS,laserdisc,BetaMax,DVD,Blu Ray,UHD ect..... there was only your memory to help stimulate and maintain a sense of aura about what you had just witnessed in the cinema......and for me this selection of photos from the inside sleeve of the LP from 78' was basically my way of rewatching STM until the aforementioned formats started to appear.......I always liked the way these photos were juxtaposed on the black background:  

Agreed! The only other one here was a 'Mad magazine' parody of the movie if not a comic book adaptation. With one lacking, there was only Mad magazine..

(all pages in this link)
fantasticflashbacks.blogspot.com/2012/03/mads-1979-supermanthe-movie-spoof.html

[crazy_asian_man]

Loved this image for years. I believe this was the colorized version but in seeing it, it always reminded me of 'what we never got to see' for so long prior to the Donner cut. The end result was diluted by the fact that Donner didn't shoot the footage of Lois' portion of the scene- that - according to the Mank script- had her scream and weep at the end of the scene for what she did.

As a result, the Donner cut scene is really underwhelming because Lois was suppposed to 'carry' the scene with her reactions, much as we saw with the Lester version. The fan cuts give a stronger idea of what the scene might have been like instead.

[crazy_asian_man]

Newer image- so much you can read behind this.... Chris had to know how much was on his shoulders and we know he had to try to 'stay in character' while on set- but after reading how Brando didn't take it too seriously right off the bat- how could that not get into one's head?

Considering this was Reeve's first 'big break' as an actor--- I imagine he had to try to stay focused and in the headspace with all the craziness going around him. While the co-stars could probably joke around or relax, I imagine he had to have had a ton of fears.... and then it's easier to understand why an easygoing Margot who says what's on her mind might drive him nuts considering how worried he must have been every day.

Fortunately for Reeve, he must have been thrilled when it was a giant hit and paid off. But it had to be a worrisome time filming the first one...

[dejan]

@cam

That's an interesting photo you found there!....almost looks like Reeve is having a sulk-lol.
With regards to the pressure on Reeve......obviously it was colossal.
On the other hand, there  is one interview where Reeve says that because Donner and the crew were so preoccupied with other aspects of the production, he felt the pressure was off with regards to his interpretation of the character; almost as if no one was paying attention to him!

Here is a personal favourite-not a photo but the UK quad for the 1981 double bill:
 
Because me and my pop arrived a little late to the screening , basically missing the opening credits.....I could hear the approach to Krypton theme music that was emanating from the theater room  whilst  we were getting our tickets  at the kiosk  where this poster was on display.....so this image is burned into my memory with that particular music lol
 

[crazy_asian_man]

dejan-

I don't recall if you mentioned that this was the first time you experienced the movie or not.... if so-
(and I might have mentioned it previously)-

#1: I feel awful that you and your dad missed the opening to STM- Obviously, you've seen it since then, but I'm a stickler for movies I love to see every frame in order-
I had the great misfortune to have seen the ENDING of Close Encounters of the 3rd kind before the beginning when viewing it in theatres!

#2: I'm divided on whether it was better or not to have been able to see these back to back for a first viewing. The 'anticipation time' between films was a plus and a minus- with seeing the first one multiple times I was so attuned to every frame and the high standard of Donner- that with the couple of YEARS separating releases, I had imagined in my head over and over how the new one was going to blow me away- particularly with the battle scene.... and, yeah, I was suprised by the endless unnecessary sight gags in the middle of the Metro battle.

On the other hand- if I saw the sequel five minutes later (or so) on first view, I might have been more accepting and less critical of what I expected.

Similarly, another friend remarked that he saw the 70's "Battlestar Galactica" before seeing "A New Hope" and consequently found ANH boring! I could understand why in context, sort of...

[crazy_asian_man]

I saw this first online during a time when the Donner cut was 'on the way'--- and got chills (but I get that with any new Superman Donner-Reeve footage) that I was finally going to see the scene that this must have been attached to--- but it never appeared in the Donner cut. If anything, we got a subtraction from what the extended tv cut offered for much of it! Gah!

It's odd because the script doesn't really reference it... unless it was one of the scenes where Supes goes to get Lois the items for dinner.
But--- these photos are good and bad because I lvoe seeing them, but.... I want to see those scenes that were shot with them!!!

[crazy_asian_man]

These images prior to the Donner cut made me hunger for THAT scene--- that was underwhelming through how it was cut as 'faster faster faster!'- to its detriment.

When I saw this image and envisioned that scene, I thought of how even the scene of Jor-el with the green crystal in the beginning of STM was milked for all of its emotion. I didn't expect the rapid-fire pacing of the RDC scene --- though maybe it's not Thau's fault but Donner's pushing of 'faster faster' against his prior aesthetics that showed with STM and the first couple of Lethal Weapon movies/Ladyhawke.

Bottom line, every scene in the STM - (well, maybe not the Otis walking scenes or the over-the-top Luthor ones) is iconic--- While you could have had the scene with Jorel launching the starship in a few seconds, there were tons of tiny details that just added so much extra emotion to that sequence.... I expected the same treatment (particularly with the photos for this scene)- a second of hesitation before putting the crystal in, of hope and fear that nothing might happen- but everything edited the way it was in the RDC made for just a feeling of sloppiness but it could have been mainly an error of being pushed to 'speed it up'.

STM is not a 'speed it up' film, but a slow, beautiful burn.
The heartbreak is that the scene doesn't have the same power or emotion as the Krypton scenes in STM- or what I imagined in my head for years in seeing these photos surface- and I think it's the edit, not the direction that undermined it.

[crazy_asian_man]

As an aside- for those who don't post but just lurk, or are fresh to Capedwonder & the forum here- Most aleady know I assume, but for the few who don't:

Jim Bowers created the fantastic Capedwonder.com website and the wonderful podcasts/video shows on that site as well--- really really cool stuff! The last one is with the creator of Superman CInema from long ago--- All the shows have been fantastic. Go check it out on his site!

[Kamdan]

Speaking of Superman Cinema, is there a way to look back at the old site with the Wayback Machine? I think we used to be able to look back at the old forum posts, but that’s out of commission now.

[dejan]

@cam
Yes the 1981 UK double bill was my first viewing of STM & SII.

Funnily enough, by missing the opening credits and the approach to Krypton with the subsequent panning shot that encompasses the landscape with the Dome/cupola.......it made it quite awe inspiring to see the structure suddenly and surprisingly arch upwards(just after Zod delivers his ultimatum to Jorel)......to reveal that the criminals were inside a gigantic dome in the first place!!
So I  may not have experienced that sequence as  intended by the director but it still ended up captivating me and pop.
The sense of scale was so well executed that we were just mesmerized!

So in homage to that moment I post this behind the scenes photo of that iconic dome(thanks to Capedwonder):

[dejan]

@cam

Regarding your 2 photos of Donner's SII fortress scenes--I do hope there is actually more that can be unearthed.

I did find it surprising that Donner had not lensed more of Lois's reactions to Supes getting depowered.
And I wanna see Donner's soufle scene dammit!

Regarding  Thau's editing---totally agree with your analysis.
STM is a product of a specific nexus in time regarding american cinematic history.
When I watched all those movies from 1978' .......that was one thing that really struck me.....the pacing of all of them....far more measured and more balanced than films we have now.