dejan
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Post by dejan on Jan 27, 2021 17:52:43 GMT -5
@cam I actually re-watched Lester's SII for the first time in just over a year last night.....in fact I did a marathon of MOS, SR and SII.....but that is for another thread!  My personal impressions on the theatrical are still the same. Maybe I will give the Donner cut a spin too soon...have not watched it for a couple of years. I will say that the evolution of cinema as an art form was in a high state of turbulence during the 60s and 70s(around the time that Lester and Donner were honing their skills). If I look at Lester from a contemporaneous perspective(i.e as stuff was happening)......then this guy was a discrete trailblazer long before he came anywhere close to being involved with Superman. If on the other hand I look it at through the lens of 2021 then it is easy to point out the imperfections or limitations(technical or even cultural) of works from several decades prior. I could find holes in Citizen Kane, Lawrence Of Arabia, The Godfather or indeed STM and Star Wars! As contemporary cinema stands at the moment.....it's saturated with stagnancy(it's been this way for at least 25 years). IMHO it's the reason why the likes of MOS or SR fail to resonate.....because they offer nothing new within the context of contemporary competition. SR had to play second fiddle to Pirates, Cars ,The DaVinci Code and X Men:Last Stand.....MOS got buried by Gravity, Thor 2 and Iron Man 3. It's the main reason I was so anxious to compare STM to all those other 1978 flicks in my binge watch last summer. No doubt STM is just a beautiful movie. Period. But it was also radically different to anything else out there. It's a huge factor and not to be underestimated. Lester's SII also belongs to that class. There was nothing like it in 81(except STM from 2 years prior!) Sure, in 81', there was Clash Of The Titans, Excalibur, DragonSlayer, Outland and American Warewolf In London(I enjoy all of those too!)---but SII was another level in terms of scale and quality(artistic or technical). So I totally agree with you that the Mank script was fantastic with regards to the Metropolis climax.......but what we got with Lester was still great just by virtue of the fact that it was unique. Even Raider's climax relied more on sheer horror than outright scale to provide a satisfactory finale to that film. : I think what gets under my skin (and definitely Donner's!) is that when reading about all the heavy heavy lifting Donner had to do to get everything in place for what could have been a two-movie masterpiece--- and how many things were already lined up to finish and there was a blueprint... It didn't need a great director to finish it off.... it just needed one who wasn't going to rewrite it and change the story and characters to a more comedic level. That Lester willingly took full credit for the majority of scenes that Donner/Baird made great so he could re-launch his own career to this day annoys me- Lester got 100% control (as far as we know) for SIII--- and comparing SII and SIII, scenes at a time- the majority of the great stuff (imo) in the theatrical was the Donner material: #1: The moon attack #2: The Hackman material #3: The white house w/criminals #4: The Diner scene #5: The DP attack #6: The final FOS scene If one were to subtract those from the theatrical and had those shot by Lester in a faster cheaper conventional style, I don't feel like it would have gotten all the raves it got from the critics. I do think that it would have been a competent film even rewritten.... but -especially with the jokey Metro battle- I would have been annoyed, but less annoyed if it wasn't one director jumping on the back of the other and accepting full credit. It's true that Donner was offered shared credit and turned it down, but it's hard to blame him.... but I personally wish he did accept it so that people knew off the bat how much he contributed to SII. Anyhow, I don't mean to get riled up..... we're all passionate about the first two Superman reeve films, but I just wish Lester had put his ego aside and completed it to match Donner's vision, as he had his own Superman film in Superman III afterwards to show off his own vision of what he felt a great Superman film should be. IMO he didn't have to half-ruin another professional's movie to restart his career. On another note- I give that the scenes shot that I didn't care for or cared less for were well performed and looked 'good' but it's the nagging feeling of what we were supposed to get originally that bothers me. If Lester was ALWAYS going to shoot SII from beginning to end (much like Ratner's X3)- I would not have been as bothered. I dislike X3, but it wasn't as if the original script were already written- and it wasn't as if Bryan Singer had shot half of it already.... So, anyhow that's where I view things. The best hope is a recut at this point... 2nd hope is extended tv cut of SII. But.... most likely fan cuts are going to be the most satisfying. No worries cam.....I know you are/were disappointed with what you got in 81'. In terms of who's footage is better or worse I think it maybe a question of directorial perception. Let me explain. In the context of 1979-80,Lester used Donner's footage to accentuate various elements of the story that would amplify the effectiveness of the entire film as a whole. Of course most cinemagoers in 81' were unaware that the footage that they were seeing was derived from 2 distinct shoots!(1977-78 and 1979-80). And having been there myself in 81'(or watching it again just the other night)....I saw/see no distinction between the Non that crushes the Moon lander and the Non that tries to zap the dead snake. In 2006 the context and scenario was entirely different with regards to the then new Donner Cut. Every(or nearly every!) fan watching knew exactly who shot what how, when and why! So the DC is essentially an openly declared slug fest between 2 director's work within the narrative flow of one film. Mank even insinuates as much in the commentary during the FOS climax(where he says how superior the cinematography Of Donner/Unsworth is to Lester's). It's one of the reasons(and there are many) why the Donner cut is a let down. The Thau/Donner/Mank team purposely tried to make the Lester footage look bad! The difference is that Lester never did the same with Donner's footage!-He used it to serve the needs of the story. So whilst I agree with you that Lester may have had egotistical reasons of his own to change the tone of the movie relative to how Donner originally envisioned the material.......unfortunately Donner has also allowed his own ego or anger(maybe both) to mitigate his vision for the aforementioned DC. Something else that piqued my interest: Just reading through the Mank script for SII(18/4/77)......I noticed that Ursa makes the poor astronaut explode! URSA suddenly reaches out, rips the space suit down the
front, tearing a great gaping hole as easily as if she
were ripping tissue paper. ROBBIE'S arms flail in the air.
He quickly explodes (EFFECTS) from the pressure change.
URSA grins
Not sure if there is another revised version of that script.......otherwise Donner changed that incident during the actual shooting (with a devastating kick!). In other words given the complexity of the shoot and the subsequent break in shooting between I and II.....even if Donner had come back I think his finished product would have been effectively different(for a whole host of reasons) to what was laid out in the 77' template. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 29, 2021 3:54:26 GMT -5
dejan : I think what gets under my skin (and definitely Donner's!) is that when reading about all the heavy heavy lifting Donner had to do to get everything in place for what could have been a two-movie masterpiece--- and how many things were already lined up to finish and there was a blueprint... It didn't need a great director to finish it off.... it just needed one who wasn't going to rewrite it and change the story and characters to a more comedic level. That Lester willingly took full credit for the majority of scenes that Donner/Baird made great so he could re-launch his own career to this day annoys me- Lester got 100% control (as far as we know) for SIII--- and comparing SII and SIII, scenes at a time- the majority of the great stuff (imo) in the theatrical was the Donner material: #1: The moon attack #2: The Hackman material #3: The white house w/criminals #4: The Diner scene #5: The DP attack #6: The final FOS scene If one were to subtract those from the theatrical and had those shot by Lester in a faster cheaper conventional style, I don't feel like it would have gotten all the raves it got from the critics. I do think that it would have been a competent film even rewritten.... but -especially with the jokey Metro battle- I would have been annoyed, but less annoyed if it wasn't one director jumping on the back of the other and accepting full credit. It's true that Donner was offered shared credit and turned it down, but it's hard to blame him.... but I personally wish he did accept it so that people knew off the bat how much he contributed to SII. Anyhow, I don't mean to get riled up..... we're all passionate about the first two Superman reeve films, but I just wish Lester had put his ego aside and completed it to match Donner's vision, as he had his own Superman film in Superman III afterwards to show off his own vision of what he felt a great Superman film should be. IMO he didn't have to half-ruin another professional's movie to restart his career. On another note- I give that the scenes shot that I didn't care for or cared less for were well performed and looked 'good' but it's the nagging feeling of what we were supposed to get originally that bothers me. If Lester was ALWAYS going to shoot SII from beginning to end (much like Ratner's X3)- I would not have been as bothered. I dislike X3, but it wasn't as if the original script were already written- and it wasn't as if Bryan Singer had shot half of it already.... So, anyhow that's where I view things. The best hope is a recut at this point... 2nd hope is extended tv cut of SII. But.... most likely fan cuts are going to be the most satisfying. No worries cam.....I know you are/were disappointed with what you got in 81'. In terms of who's footage is better or worse I think it maybe a question of directorial perception. Let me explain. In the context of 1979-80,Lester used Donner's footage to accentuate various elements of the story that would amplify the effectiveness of the entire film as a whole. Of course most cinemagoers in 81' were unaware that the footage that they were seeing was derived from 2 distinct shoots!(1977-78 and 1979-80). And having been there myself in 81'(or watching it again just the other night)....I saw/see no distinction between the Non that crushes the Moon lander and the Non that tries to zap the dead snake. In 2006 the context and scenario was entirely different with regards to the then new Donner Cut. Every(or nearly every!) fan watching knew exactly who shot what how, when and why! So the DC is essentially an openly declared slug fest between 2 director's work within the narrative flow of one film. Mank even insinuates as much in the commentary during the FOS climax(where he says how superior the cinematography Of Donner/Unsworth is to Lester's). It's one of the reasons(and there are many) why the Donner cut is a let down. The Thau/Donner/Mank team purposely tried to make the Lester footage look bad! The difference is that Lester never did the same with Donner's footage!-He used it to serve the needs of the story. So whilst I agree with you that Lester may have had egotistical reasons of his own to change the tone of the movie relative to how Donner originally envisioned the material.......unfortunately Donner has also allowed his own ego or anger(maybe both) to mitigate his vision for the aforementioned DC. Something else that piqued my interest: Just reading through the Mank script for SII(18/4/77)......I noticed that Ursa makes the poor astronaut explode! URSA suddenly reaches out, rips the space suit down the
front, tearing a great gaping hole as easily as if she
were ripping tissue paper. ROBBIE'S arms flail in the air.
He quickly explodes (EFFECTS) from the pressure change.
URSA grins
Not sure if there is another revised version of that script.......otherwise Donner changed that incident during the actual shooting (with a devastating kick!). In other words given the complexity of the shoot and the subsequent break in shooting between I and II.....even if Donner had come back I think his finished product would have been effectively different(for a whole host of reasons) to what was laid out in the 77' template. Well... I think it is a case where we really do see things differently. It's cool, it is just a movie we're both excited about. I think we agree that the Donner cut is a mess- more incoherent than the theatrical Superman II which is a bit of a Frankenstein monster imo, but coherent. In a way- the extended tv cut might be the best 'Donner' cut. We get hints, but we'll never know for sure if it was poor choices on Michael Thua's part, or Donner's insistence to go 'faster faster faster' or a combination of both... but except for bits we saw mostly on the extended tv cut, the Donner cut at times doesn't make Donner's material look good either! (A number of alternate shots are inferior, for sure). I don't have any noble thoughts about Lester's intents- but I was open to hearing his side of the story. Previously, I used to paint (in my head) Ilya Salkind as the 'villain' for firing Donner--- but after hearing his commentaries and some interviews, he makes a reasonable argument for his point of view and I think if Lester ever granted an interview or talked about what he did, I might change my mind on his role as well. In any case.... Richard Donner is (gasp) 90 years old! Richard Lester is 89! If Lester hasn't granted an interview or commentary regarding this chapter of his life, he probably never will. The only thing that's salveageable at this point is if we got a better new cut or the tv cut--- I'm not getting any younger either! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jan 30, 2021 14:31:30 GMT -5
@cam No worries bud...it's a pleasure to converse and totally respect your viewpoint  I would say that if you have a spare moment, check out this video of Lester at a conference in Italy(in 2014) where he discusses his early career. There is no mention of Superman. But that is why I would encourage you to watch it(unless you have seen it already). Actually gives a very good insight in to how this guy ticks. It may make you even more angry with him...... or conversely, it may make you appreciate him more : |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 30, 2021 15:37:20 GMT -5
@cam No worries bud...it's a pleasure to converse and totally respect your viewpoint I would say that if you have a spare moment, check out this video of Lester at a conference in Italy(in 2014) where he discusses his early career. There is no mention of Superman. But that is why I would encourage you to watch it(unless you have seen it already). Actually gives a very good insight in to how this guy ticks. It may make you even more angry with him...... or conversely, it may make you appreciate him more : Always great chatting and hearing your views, too- likewise Dejan! I will check out the Lester conference when I can and come back here to comment on it. Thanks for sharing! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 30, 2021 15:44:59 GMT -5
Choice of the day:  Absolutely loved this scene... it brought the Superman and Lois characters to a much deeper level than all the comics and tv prior to this! The original script is even darker (and maybe would have been a touch too traumatic) with a group of guys beating up Clark--- but this scene to me kind of showed how Superman II should have been under Donner/Mank's script the "Empire Strikes Back" of the Superman series. It still SORT OF is.... but unlike Empire, the humor weakens the villains to be not as dark, and the final battle, definitely undermined by the overdone cutaways to bystanders that seem like they came from a 'wacky' tv sitcom. (*The deadpan humor worked for Lester brilliantly in Three Musketeers... just was not the right moment for it here imo) |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 2, 2021 15:10:49 GMT -5
Remember the closeup, medium shots, wide shot rhythyms of STM - especially for flying shots? I wanted that same rhythym for SII's theatrical... but the cheaper aesthetics made not-necessarily convincing dolls in wide shots and Thau's 'faster faster faster' dictate perhaps undermine that... In a second or two, for the RDC, we see Supes fly off the flagpole- but at Capedwonder we have what looks like a whole photo sequence of Reeve flying over the models that we didn't really get to see = it looks graet! Would it have killed anyone to have included a flyby with this flyby with this angle in it into the RDC? Well- at least there's the photos which are cool...!  |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 3, 2021 17:44:25 GMT -5
Remember the closeup, medium shots, wide shot rhythyms of STM - especially for flying shots? I wanted that same rhythym for SII's theatrical... but the cheaper aesthetics made not-necessarily convincing dolls in wide shots and Thau's 'faster faster faster' dictate perhaps undermine that... In a second or two, for the RDC, we see Supes fly off the flagpole- but at Capedwonder we have what looks like a whole photo sequence of Reeve flying over the models that we didn't really get to see = it looks graet! Would it have killed anyone to have included a flyby with this flyby with this angle in it into the RDC? Well- at least there's the photos which are cool...! View AttachmentView AttachmentThose are great photos. I am wondering if they would have been used as publicity stills in promotion paraphernalia to accompany a Donner SII..... had it eventually come to pass in 1979/80. As an aside I noticed that some of the lobby cards that were on sale to coincide with the release of Lester's 1981 SII featured photographs from the 1977-78 shoot:  Would have been cool if Lester's publicity team had used that Donner 77' flagpole flyby for the 81 release! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 3, 2021 19:43:24 GMT -5
Remember the closeup, medium shots, wide shot rhythyms of STM - especially for flying shots? I wanted that same rhythym for SII's theatrical... but the cheaper aesthetics made not-necessarily convincing dolls in wide shots and Thau's 'faster faster faster' dictate perhaps undermine that... In a second or two, for the RDC, we see Supes fly off the flagpole- but at Capedwonder we have what looks like a whole photo sequence of Reeve flying over the models that we didn't really get to see = it looks graet! Would it have killed anyone to have included a flyby with this flyby with this angle in it into the RDC? Well- at least there's the photos which are cool...! View AttachmentView AttachmentThose are great photos. I am wondering if they would have been used as publicity stills in promotion paraphernalia to accompany a Donner SII..... had it eventually come to pass in 1979/80. As an aside I noticed that some of the lobby cards that were on sale to coincide with the release of Lester's 1981 SII featured photographs from the 1977-78 shoot: Would have been cool if Lester's publicity team had used that Donner 77' flagpole flyby for the 81 release! Those are really awesome photoes, I agree! Some of the lobby cards from the theatrical were pretty nice, I admit... but, yeah, it would have been cool if those flybys were color lobby cards! (Wonder if color versions will ever be found!) Regarding Lester-Donner again... Honestly speaking... if Lester had come out and credited at least half of the success to Donner during the publicity runs or the documentary during that time frame, I wouldn't have felt nearly as much animosity towards Lester. For the critics to not be corrected when lavishing the praise on Lester.... I hope if I were in the same situation, I would have credited at least half to the original director. And/or share their side of the story. Ilya Salkind did, and since he did, I was glad he did because I thought he made some sense for his side of the story as well. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 3, 2021 21:12:04 GMT -5
@cam Agree with your viewpoint regarding the lack of credit given to Donner(by Lester) at the time of the original 81' release. The Timeout expose' is the only contemporary mainstream article that I am aware of that goes into any depth with regards to the matter. supermania78.com/2017/09/margots-timeout/Reeve does say "that if it was not for that(Lester's skill as a director) and for the major legacy left by Donner and his footage which I estimate to be about 25% then it would have been a joke". Donner wishes SII well :"I am sure it is going to do big business". Spengler concedes "there is nothing wrong with the cut footage artistically" The journalist is told by insiders that the Brando performance "is by all accounts excellent". Reeve says that "SII is the lowest you can go without cheating--I am talking about the production not the film". It's actually amazing to think that this was the one article that sustained most of our imaginations throughout that period were Donner's footage was locked away. This was the foto that really stimulated my interest.....and made me pissed off with Lester(until 2006!):  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 3, 2021 22:05:35 GMT -5
@cam Agree with your viewpoint regarding the lack of credit given to Donner(by Lester) at the time of the original 81' release. The Timeout expose' is the only contemporary mainstream article that I am aware of that goes into any depth with regards to the matter. supermania78.com/2017/09/margots-timeout/Reeve does say "that if it was not for that(Lester's skill as a director) and for the major legacy left by Donner and his footage which I estimate to be about 25% then it would have been a joke". Donner wishes SII well :"I am sure it is going to do big business". Spengler concedes "there is nothing wrong with the cut footage artistically" The journalist is told by insiders that the Brando performance "is by all accounts excellent". Reeve says that "SII is the lowest you can go without cheating--I am talking about the production not the film". It's actually amazing to think that this was the one article that sustained most of our imaginations throughout that period were Donner's footage was locked away. This was the foto that really stimulated my interest.....and made me pissed off with Lester(until 2006!): A few things with the depowering scene: #1: We know that Donner was known for 'overshooting' with multiple angles/etc. #2: Thau's editing choices were questionable on a LOT of the footage by different fans (including me) #3: According to Thau, at times Donner wanted it cut 'faster and faster'... The photo suggests a far stronger scene than we got.... but -again- looking at the amount of films Donner has done where the performances and edits were solid- it's not impossible for the depowering/repowering scenes to have been undershot (we know for sure that Lois' closeups weren't shot at least) but it's also equally possible that they just weren't cut together properly or maybe even Donner sabotaged it by asking for the scenes to move faster and faster in 2006.... In any case- far too many 'great' dramatic scenes happened for STM/SII under Donner/Baird --- as well as the first couple of Lethal Weapon movies for me to write off the possibility that it just was poorly cut and that perhaps the performances shot weren't given it's due by either being a take not chosen or not sewed together properly... I'll give I could totally be wrong, but.... who knows for sure? Only Donner and Thau.... |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 4, 2021 18:25:47 GMT -5
@cam
Yeah there is a definitely a bit of mystery/intrigue with this depowering scene.
Of course Brando was only available for a limited time and the Fortress set was not yet built/completed during his stay on the shoot. In fact this is Reeve's first scene on the shoot. Some debut for Reeve!. Except it would take 30 years for the public to see it!
Brando is actually touching Reeve's left shoulder in the photo as opposed to his right (as rendered in the Donner cut).
I have to say that what we got in the DC does not diverge from what is scripted:
ANGLE ON JOR-EL - CLARK'S POV
For an instant, JOR-EL actually stands before his son - a
serene smile on his face, his arm extended in farewell.
Just as suddenly - he disappears.
In the DC we only see Reeve's point of few as Brando approaches him......would have been nice to have seen a quick cut to Brando's POV too.......or maybe have the angle that is shot from the side (revealing both actors)as seen in the photo.........or a combination of all 3!.
Out of curiosity...looking again at the script:
CLARK starts to speak, but JOR-EL'S eyes suddenly come
ablaze with energy, riveting him to the spot. Two dazzling
white arcs of light shoot into CLARK, racking his body
with involuntary vibrations. CAMERA PIUSHES IN on JOR-EL'S
face, straining to summon up the suicidal energy, until
only his blinding eyes are in the frame.
In the DC, Brando's face instantly converts to the crystallized equivalent.
There are no facial expressions of Brando straining to produce more energy.
A couple of hypothesis:
Either the optical composite(of Brando straining his eyes):
1)was shot but lost(at some point between the 70s and 2006).
2)it was shot but not deemed good enough by Thau and Donner.
3)was never shot(quite feasible as changes can be made on the fly when shooting).
I personally think that those few short seconds of Brando articulating his face with some kind of emotional pain ect would have gone a long way to solidifying the effectiveness of that scene.....seeing as how Brando's was incredibly restrained across STM and SII......up until that hypothetical precise moment when he struggles to summon up that energy. Brando was brilliant at executing scenes when he was required to suddenly snap.I think it would have played out well if it had been completed in this vain.
IMHO...I love Reeve's performance during his interaction with Jorel's image as well as the close up cinematography focusing explicitly on Reeve's face.
The brief speech by Reeve just prior to the appearance of Jorel's hologram though, was not quite as secure as what he delivered in the theatrical. The cinematography is still fantastic.....so as you say... may be there are other takes or angles.
As Kevin Spacey says in SR: "Possibilities!"
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 4, 2021 19:56:11 GMT -5
@cam Yeah there is a definitely a bit of mystery/intrigue with this depowering scene. Of course Brando was only available for a limited time and the Fortress set was not yet built/completed during his stay on the shoot. In fact this is Reeve's first scene on the shoot. Some debut for Reeve!. Except it would take 30 years for the public to see it! Brando is actually touching Reeve's left shoulder in the photo as opposed to his right (as rendered in the Donner cut). I have to say that what we got in the DC does not diverge from what is scripted: ANGLE ON JOR-EL - CLARK'S POV
For an instant, JOR-EL actually stands before his son - a
serene smile on his face, his arm extended in farewell.
Just as suddenly - he disappears.
In the DC we only see Reeve's point of few as Brando approaches him......would have been nice to have seen a quick cut to Brando's POV too.......or maybe have the angle that is shot from the side (revealing both actors)as seen in the photo.........or a combination of all 3!. Out of curiosity...looking again at the script: CLARK starts to speak, but JOR-EL'S eyes suddenly come
ablaze with energy, riveting him to the spot. Two dazzling
white arcs of light shoot into CLARK, racking his body
with involuntary vibrations. CAMERA PIUSHES IN on JOR-EL'S
face, straining to summon up the suicidal energy, until
only his blinding eyes are in the frame.
In the DC, Brando's face instantly converts to the crystallized equivalent. There are no facial expressions of Brando straining to produce more energy. A couple of hypothesis: Either the optical composite(of Brando straining his eyes): 1)was shot but lost(at some point between the 70s and 2006). 2)it was shot but not deemed good enough by Thau and Donner. 3)was never shot(quite feasible as changes can be made on the fly when shooting). I personally think that those few short seconds of Brando articulating his face with some kind of emotional pain ect would have gone a long way to solidifying the effectiveness of that scene.....seeing as how Brando's was incredibly restrained across STM and SII......up until that hypothetical precise moment when he struggles to summon up that energy. Brando was brilliant at executing scenes when he was required to suddenly snap.I think it would have played out well if it had been completed in this vain. IMHO...I love Reeve's performance during his interaction with Jorel's image as well as the close up cinematography focusing explicitly on Reeve's face. The brief speech by Reeve just prior to the appearance of Jorel's hologram though, was not quite as secure as what he delivered in the theatrical. The cinematography is still fantastic.....so as you say... may be there are other takes or angles. As Kevin Spacey says in SR: "Possibilities!" Excellent thoughts! Gives an idea about a fan recut of that sequence..! With the limited window of time, I would imagine that Donner arranged EVERY camera in the world covering each scene for Brando... hence, a lot of takes on the cutting room floor we've still never seen. Also, if I recall- in the script, a few seconds before, Clark/Reeve is on the ground, wracked with pain--- I think that if Donner had that scripted staging would have looked a bit less silly than the prolongued bit of standing there shaking in pain. Or- just as you mentioned- a few shots here or there even for a few seconds can change everything! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 6, 2021 1:08:32 GMT -5
@cam
Actually I am amazed that no behind the scenes footage has surfaced so far regarding this scene.
Given the significance of it's context......young(quasi film debutant) actor reciting alongside the finest performer of his generation(and receiving a record breaking amount of money for it)....in a pivotal scene for the story.........there should have been documentary cameramen all over the place!!!!!
There is tonnes of behind the scenes footage of Brando banishing the villains, pleading with the Kryptonian elders and saying goodbye to his son with York........but nothing of this blue screen physical meet up with Reeve!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 6, 2021 2:59:55 GMT -5
@cam Actually I am amazed that no behind the scenes footage has surfaced so far regarding this scene. Given the significance of it's context......young(quasi film debutant) actor reciting alongside the finest performer of his generation(and receiving a record breaking amount of money for it)....in a pivotal scene for the story.........there should have been documentary cameramen all over the place!!!!! There is tonnes of behind the scenes footage of Brando banishing the villains, pleading with the Kryptonian elders and saying goodbye to his son with York........but nothing of this blue screen physical meet up with Reeve! I vaguely remember reading an article on how in the beginning, Brando wanted NO press whatsoever (Was he embarrassed by the film in the beginning? We know that he didn't take it too seriously until he could tell Reeve was bothered by it and called him out.)... but later on, (probably once he realized either the level of production or Donner's passion for it or the dailies?), he welcomed Time magazine and whatnot to come on set to interview him. Maybe that accounts for no bts footage of Brando during this scene? Maybe it was the first shot when Brando might have been still wanting to be a voice coming out of a bagel... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 9, 2021 1:05:46 GMT -5
I guess you could file this under "cool... but maddening, too"- With the documentary footage of Lois wearing Superman's shirt & some of these photos, you would have thought that Donner would have shot the closeups of Lois in the shirt. I imagine if footage existed, it would have been used. If only they had shot the closeups while they were there! Ugh! Still... neat to see the pictures and imagine the scene if it were properly shot...  |
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atp
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Post by atp on Feb 9, 2021 1:21:47 GMT -5
Is it just me, or does anyone feel those black and white photos are more special than full colour?
For me, there is a huge sense of nostalgia. As a child, most of the collectible photos from STM were black and white.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 9, 2021 1:24:38 GMT -5
Is it just me, or does anyone feel those black and white photos are more special than full colour? For me, there is a huge sense of nostalgia. As a child, most of the collectible photos from STM were black and white. Black and white definitely has a different aesthetic... I don't know if I necessarily think 'better', but I do enjoy them both! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 9, 2021 17:51:10 GMT -5
@cam
Nice find with that Kidder B&W!
Looking at the SII Donner script, the real emotional pivot of the story(IMHO) is/are really the scene(s) between Clark and Lois at the Fortress(as well as the Niagra Falls).
It's unfortunate he never got round to shooting them in the original schedule.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 9, 2021 18:11:37 GMT -5
@cam Actually I am amazed that no behind the scenes footage has surfaced so far regarding this scene. Given the significance of it's context......young(quasi film debutant) actor reciting alongside the finest performer of his generation(and receiving a record breaking amount of money for it)....in a pivotal scene for the story.........there should have been documentary cameramen all over the place!!!!! There is tonnes of behind the scenes footage of Brando banishing the villains, pleading with the Kryptonian elders and saying goodbye to his son with York........but nothing of this blue screen physical meet up with Reeve! I vaguely remember reading an article on how in the beginning, Brando wanted NO press whatsoever (Was he embarrassed by the film in the beginning? We know that he didn't take it too seriously until he could tell Reeve was bothered by it and called him out.)... but later on, (probably once he realized either the level of production or Donner's passion for it or the dailies?), he welcomed Time magazine and whatnot to come on set to interview him. Maybe that accounts for no bts footage of Brando during this scene? Maybe it was the first shot when Brando might have been still wanting to be a voice coming out of a bagel... I rechecked Petrou's 1978 Making Of Book. The depowering scene was shot in the 2nd week(of Brando's 2 week stay). Interestingly, the first scenes that Brando recorded, were for the optical composites where he instructs Supes about "dramatic instructions to his son"(according to Petrou). I can only surmise that this is referring to the deleted scene from STM("you cannot serve humanity 28 hours a day").....or maybe the sequence where Brando talks to Jeff East......maybe both! It's not impossible that those Brando opticals for SII were also shot in those first few days too. Petrou says that Reeve came on stage to see Brando work during that first day(and apparently they had met earlier that morning). As you mentioned before, there is no behinds the scenes footage from that SII diner scene too. So it could just be that both the depowering and diner BTS footage were discarded in the vaults way back then.......seeing as they were unable use them for the SII making of documentary(that would coincide with the 1980/81 theatrical release)....once Donner was jettisoned. But should they resurface some day.......it will be like Christmas! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 9, 2021 18:26:18 GMT -5
Whatever the justified criticisms of SIII are........there were some great promo stills to coincide with the theatrical release.......which titillated the imagination way back then(or at least mine---- lol)   |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 14, 2021 1:13:53 GMT -5
Whatever the justified criticisms of SIII are........there were some great promo stills to coincide with the theatrical release.......which titillated the imagination way back then(or at least mine---- lol) I hear you. I loved seeing the lobby cards for SII in the theatre lobby and just like you, had the imagination go wild on what to expect months before its release. Here's a favorite I had from then: (Actually from supermanii.com!)  |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 17, 2021 11:57:49 GMT -5
This is a personal favorite. It's the inside sleeve of the 1978 LP. It's a great composite photo......in fact you can see that the compositor has added a few red brush strokes to add extra emphasis that Supes is airborne!  What I could never figure(40 years and counting) out was the background! To me it looks like it could be the crystals of the fortress.......or the lights from the cityscape of NYC. And as a real far out hypothesis.....was this actually a promo shot/photo from what would have been Donner's SII!--after the late 1978 release....and seeing as it was ambiguous enough...they then transplanted it to STM's promo tour! Maybe this was Supes on his way out of the fortress to fly to Italy and buy those flowers?! ...as scripted by Mank! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 17, 2021 12:52:33 GMT -5
This is a personal favorite. It's the inside sleeve of the 1978 LP. It's a great composite photo......in fact you can see that the compositor has added a few red brush strokes to add extra emphasis that Supes is airborne! What I could never figure(40 years and counting) out was the background! To me it looks like it could be the crystals of the fortress.......or the lights from the cityscape of NYC. And as a real far out hypothesis.....was this actually a promo shot/photo from what would have been Donner's SII!--after the late 1978 release....and seeing as it was ambiguous enough...they then transplanted it to STM's promo tour! Maybe this was Supes on his way out of the fortress to fly to Italy and buy those flowers?! ...as scripted by Mank! I've wondered about those composite photos pre-photoshop! Those backgrounds for the promo shots were always somewhat blurry- but I wondered if it was shot against the test back projections that weren't in high resolution in the first film to begin with. (For SII I noticed that a number of the backdrops seemed to be sharpened considerably) |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 17, 2021 12:56:26 GMT -5
One of the EXTREMELY few bits I enjoyed by Lester. Would have loved to have seen footage of the non-super-speed effect'd flight. Great great photo, though!  |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 17, 2021 13:19:33 GMT -5
One of the EXTREMELY few bits I enjoyed by Lester. Would have loved to have seen footage of the non-super-speed effect'd flight. Great great photo, though! View AttachmentNice Actually cam......what do you make of this promo shot that was featured in the Fantastic Films August 1981 review.  It features Supes flying over what looks to be the Kremlin maybe.....that cityscape looks European not American(to my eyes anyway!). Was this a hold over shot from Donner's visualization of SII before he was sacked........it was then used by Lester's team in the odd press kit junket.....like this review. |
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