Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 31, 2021 8:54:38 GMT -5
None of them are particularly great actors at all I would agree. I want a hard reset at this point. Superman, just Superman no shared DC universe, in a miniseries aimed at adults, but not something kids can't watch. An older Superman with a present day problem to solve serving as the framework, while reflecting back on his origins and battles of yesteryear would be great. We could cover his whole life but not in chronological order and briefly touch upon elements that have been done to death while mostly covering new ground. I think with a miniseries- what's good is that there's a chance to let a story 'breathe' and have slower character moments (if desired) that might not be able to happen if everything is crammed into a summer blockbuster format. As far as acting goes- I think everyone pretty much agrees about the actors- but here's a question I guess I can pose to everyone: Imagine two actors for Superman: #1: One is a fantastic actor, who is 5" and doesn't QUITE look like Supes. #2: One is an okay-good actor, who is 6 feet plus and looks EXACTLY as you would picture Superman to be. Who would you choose? What are we talking here...actual five feet tall or like five foot ten? I’ll take the better actor who doesn’t quite look the part. You can change an actors look with makeup, lighting, camera angles, hitting the gym, lifts, and camera tricks etc but there’s nothing you can do for lack of talent or charisma. May as well be watching a mannequin. Most actors playing superheroes don’t look exactly like the characters. Jackman was too tall. Downey was too short. Keaton was all wrong physically for Batman. But they each made it work. George Reeves and Dean Cain looked less like Superman than Cavill did but both where a far sight better in the role. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 31, 2021 9:00:09 GMT -5
@cam Yeah sorry should have emphasized my personal viewpoint a little better.. I still hope that whoever recites the role looks the part too(of course that is subjective in it's own right)! But unlike Batman,Spidey, Iron Man,Panther ect who have masks(and even cgi !) to assist with the effectiveness of the portrayal, poor ol' Supe's has to rely of his facial expressions and articulations(as well as the physical stuff) to execute a convincing performance(same applies to Clark). Routh and Cavill had their moments . Routh's Supes was kind and caring but a touch bland. Cavill's Supes was not so caring(could have been due to the script/director) but had a bit of (bad boy)character. And neither of them had genuine chemistry with their respective Lois's. Reeve was caring and had charisma+ he had chemistry with Lois and Lana(even if the arc of that relationship was not fully realized). One more thing.....the flying!.....this aspect really needs extra emphasis as both MOS and SR did piss poor jobs in that department. The flying in MOS was awful. It looked fake. At best it looked like a videogame. Some of STM's flying shots may look a bit dodgy now, but on the whole it was way way better. Even now, that first flight in the fortress is incredible and so real. Better use of the camera and angles in STM. MOS’s flying is all super wide or super close up. There are almost no mid range shots to really sell it. It’s to hide the cgi. In BvS there are almost no shots of him in flight. It’s mostly landing and taking off. The only notable ones we see are when he’s fighting doomsday at the end and that’s all surrounded by action stuff. |
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Post by atp on Jan 31, 2021 9:49:59 GMT -5
The flying in MOS was awful. It looked fake. At best it looked like a videogame. Some of STM's flying shots may look a bit dodgy now, but on the whole it was way way better. Even now, that first flight in the fortress is incredible and so real. Better use of the camera and angles in STM. MOS’s flying is all super wide or super close up. There are almost no mid range shots to really sell it. It’s to hide the cgi. In BvS there are almost no shots of him in flight. It’s mostly landing and taking off. The only notable ones we see are when he’s fighting doomsday at the end and that’s all surrounded by action stuff. Yes, the background in BvS was way too busy. Same with Justice League. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 1, 2021 0:21:31 GMT -5
I think with a miniseries- what's good is that there's a chance to let a story 'breathe' and have slower character moments (if desired) that might not be able to happen if everything is crammed into a summer blockbuster format. As far as acting goes- I think everyone pretty much agrees about the actors- but here's a question I guess I can pose to everyone: Imagine two actors for Superman: #1: One is a fantastic actor, who is 5" and doesn't QUITE look like Supes. #2: One is an okay-good actor, who is 6 feet plus and looks EXACTLY as you would picture Superman to be. Who would you choose? What are we talking here...actual five feet tall or like five foot ten? I’ll take the better actor who doesn’t quite look the part. You can change an actors look with makeup, lighting, camera angles, hitting the gym, lifts, and camera tricks etc but there’s nothing you can do for lack of talent or charisma. May as well be watching a mannequin. Most actors playing superheroes don’t look exactly like the characters. Jackman was too tall. Downey was too short. Keaton was all wrong physically for Batman. But they each made it work. George Reeves and Dean Cain looked less like Superman than Cavill did but both where a far sight better in the role. Everyone has a preference.... To me it's a case by case basis. Keaton I went with--- but Bale and NOlan are the canon Batman folks for me. (Well, except for the third one). I'm not saying I want someone who completely can't act even if they look perfect--- but it's a judgement call each time. Weirdly, Downey's persona matched up with Iron Man's comic book history and it was a great fit. Batfleck.... I have trouble with. Too much baggage but also his own persona doesn't feel like someone who has a lot of anger or rage built inside. While Bale's outburst on-set might not have been celebrated - it hints that there is/was an anger underneath that also fit the character. But once again- there's exceptions. Chris Evans I thought totally wrong for Captain America after playing the torch- but I can't imagine anyone else playing Cap now in the MCU. So.... again, one never REALLY knows until the movie comes out, I'll grant that.... but my bias until proven differently by the movie is to cast an unknown or someone with little baggage- or have a public persona that matches up with the character they're supposed to be playing when it comes to comic book superheroes. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 1, 2021 16:52:45 GMT -5
I think the point is there are no absolutes. You said it’s a case by case thing and I think that’s true for fans and actors. But if someone’s preference is for the best performance then the look should be secondary. It’s not unimportant but it’s not the most important thing especially when an actors looks can be changed or accentuated somehow.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 1, 2021 20:16:15 GMT -5
Metallo and cam Nice points both as always. cam brought up the TDKR. And the Dark Knight Rises brought up a very good example of how a good actor can inhabit a role and make it believable even if he is not physically appropriate for the character.......but I ain't talkin' about Bale's Batman.......but Hardy's Bane! Personally for me, Hardy was the best thing about TDKR. With the addition of camera angles, lighting , and other sleight of hand techniques, Hardy was able to execute a convincing performance portraying a character that was by convention, much taller and more physically imposing than the actor himself. The rest was down to Hardy's acting(the movement of his eyes and other facial articulations, intonations in his voice ect). The same could theoretically be applied to a Supes portrayal.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 2, 2021 15:04:30 GMT -5
Maybe it's me, but the voice I thought very funky for Bane. I thought the imagery was strong enough that if he didn't speak, it would have been even scarier...
But...
I have SO many problems with TDKR, the voice is nothing compared to my other issues with it.
One thing I think may have contributed to how it turned out was-
#1: The rushed release date and
#2: The hyper-secrecy allowing possibly not enoguh feedback on what didn't work.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 2, 2021 16:00:42 GMT -5
Tom Hardy as Bane is a great example. That version of the character is almost nothing like the Bane from the comics and Hardy is sorely miscast if you compare him to them but as it’s own thing it works. In fact it’s worked so well that THAT has become the go to version of Bane for the mainstream causal audience. Nolan did enough to hide Hardy’s lack of stature and he still came off like a physical beast. The voice isn’t even close to South American but it was memorable. Even the Harley Quinn animated show parodies that version because it’s become the best known one.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 2, 2021 17:57:36 GMT -5
Maybe it's me, but the voice I thought very funky for Bane. I thought the imagery was strong enough that if he didn't speak, it would have been even scarier... But... I have SO many problems with TDKR, the voice is nothing compared to my other issues with it. One thing I think may have contributed to how it turned out was- #1: The rushed release date and #2: The hyper-secrecy allowing possibly not enoguh feedback on what didn't work. In agreement with you there cam As a total product, I left the cinema in 2012 feeling underwhelmed with the TDKR(but compared to Prometheus which I saw roughly around the same time it felt like a classic!--lol). The scene where Bane gives a good ol' beating to Batman was my favorite moment. But what came before and after that fight was uneven in quality IMHO. But I liked Hardy's performance and the Nolans gave him some immensely chewable dialogue: "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you!" "The shadows betray you because they belong to me!" "You don't fear death, you welcome it....your punishment must be more severe" "When you have realized the depth of your failure....Then you will have my permission to die" I could go on  Which brings me to another point........we need some memorable dialogue for a rebooted Supes. I think we need something with a bit more resonance than: "I am always around Lois"(SR) or "my father believed that if the world found out who I really was that they would reject me out of fear ....that they were not ready...what do you think?" (MOS) So yeah we need some show stoppin' dialogue with a reboot! |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 2, 2021 19:47:45 GMT -5
Maybe it's me, but the voice I thought very funky for Bane. I thought the imagery was strong enough that if he didn't speak, it would have been even scarier... But... I have SO many problems with TDKR, the voice is nothing compared to my other issues with it. One thing I think may have contributed to how it turned out was- #1: The rushed release date and #2: The hyper-secrecy allowing possibly not enoguh feedback on what didn't work. In agreement with you there cam As a total product, I left the cinema in 2012 feeling underwhelmed with the TDKR(but compared to Prometheus which I saw roughly around the same time it felt like a classic!--lol). The scene where Bane gives a good ol' beating to Batman was my favorite moment. But what came before and after that fight was uneven in quality IMHO. But I liked Hardy's performance and the Nolans gave him some immensely chewable dialogue: "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you!" "The shadows betray you because they belong to me!" "You don't fear death, you welcome it....your punishment must be more severe" "When you have realized the depth of your failure....Then you will have my permission to die" I could go on Which brings me to another point........we need some memorable dialogue for a rebooted Supes. I think we need something with a bit more resonance than: "I am always around Lois"(SR) or "my father believed that if the world found out who I really was that they would reject me out of fear ....that they were not ready...what do you think?" (MOS) So yeah we need some show stoppin' dialogue with a reboot! Well the problem there is Superman has barely spoken in the last four films he’s been in! I need to dig up that old infographic of the amount of dialogue Superman’s had in all his film appearances. It’s a real eye opener as far as how they’ve treated the character in modern cinema. As for TDKR it’s clear Nolan said most of what he wanted to say about the character in the first two movies. Rises felt like it was made out of obligation more than anything. Obligation to tie up the story and a literal contractual obligation to the studio. As for Prometheus...looked great. Came off as a total farce in every other way. HUGE disappointment for me. Alien Covenant was like a bad parody of an 80s slasher film. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 2, 2021 20:25:09 GMT -5
Metallo In agreement with you there- TDKR also had some hair raising plot holes which blatantly contradicted Nolan's affinity for reality based story telling. A Supes reboot would do well to avoid such obvious pitfalls which are usually associated with restricted time that is allocated to the script. Nolan's ideas for the TDKR were squeezed in between the the development of Inception and Interstellar...and it shows. Stuff like dialogue and plot points usually entail many iterations in the development of the script. STM had an extensive evolution script wise. IMHO a Supes reboot would benefit from similar scrutiny with regards to the development of it's script. Would be interested to see that infographic that you mentioned----good point....Supes has been shafted dialogue wise: "You better step back.....maybe a little further" Seriously ...Metropolis is being shredded by the World Engine and Supes is more concerned about where Lois is standing!---lol ps I hear you on Prometheus and Covenant. Poor ol' Scott just can't rekindle the magic of 79'.....no matter hard he tries. Again rushed scripts don't help......and don't get me started on Lindelof!......keep him away from a Supes reboot script--lol
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 3, 2021 14:43:56 GMT -5
I’ve never been down on Rises for most of the supposed plot holes people see. The big thing that did bother me though was the Gotham PD officers looking so good considering they were underground for months. Even if they had food they should look a lot more disheveled and dirty. They should also be weak from lack of physical activity and dealing with all kinds of potential respiratory problems.
There was also the issue of how unbelievable it was that Wayne lost his entire fortune so quickly and the way he did. I don’t think anything like that would happen in the real world today especially considering what happened with Bane at the exchange. The FBI would be on something like that immediately. With someone of Wayne’s standing none of those deals and transactions made in his name would be considered valid. It might have been different if that kind of fraud had been done while Bruce was trapped in The Pit and if Bane and his gang had never appeared but as it was it was too easy for all that to be contested.
It’s the same kind of lazy scriptwriting that plagued man of steel and BVS. Certain things happen to get us from point a to point b even if they don’t logically make any kind of sense. Rises isn’t a bad movie but it’s poorly thought out in so many ways.
As for Scott he’s a great visualist but beyond that he’s only as good as his scripts. He’s never been one that could take a flawed but promising script with some potential and shepherd it to a better creative place. If anything his suggested changes for Prometheus and Robin Hood made them worse.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 3, 2021 20:10:41 GMT -5
Metallo In agreement with you there- TDKR also had some hair raising plot holes which blatantly contradicted Nolan's affinity for reality based story telling. A Supes reboot would do well to avoid such obvious pitfalls which are usually associated with restricted time that is allocated to the script. Nolan's ideas for the TDKR were squeezed in between the the development of Inception and Interstellar...and it shows. Stuff like dialogue and plot points usually entail many iterations in the development of the script. STM had an extensive evolution script wise. IMHO a Supes reboot would benefit from similar scrutiny with regards to the development of it's script. Would be interested to see that infographic that you mentioned----good point....Supes has been shafted dialogue wise: "You better step back.....maybe a little further" Seriously ...Metropolis is being shredded by the World Engine and Supes is more concerned about where Lois is standing!---lol ps I hear you on Prometheus and Covenant. Poor ol' Scott just can't rekindle the magic of 79'.....no matter hard he tries. Again rushed scripts don't help......and don't get me started on Lindelof!......keep him away from a Supes reboot script--lol I think of Ridley Scott in the same vein as George Lucas.... I will always be grateful for some classic masterpieces they put out.... but also look away with some of the others that weren't exactly masterpieces and give him credit for some great memories and the influence some of their winners had on cinema in general... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 3, 2021 20:13:16 GMT -5
I’ve never been down on Rises for most of the supposed plot holes people see. The big thing that did bother me though was the Gotham PD officers looking so good considering they were underground for months. Even if they had food they should look a lot more disheveled and dirty. They should also be weak from lack of physical activity and dealing with all kinds of potential respiratory problems. There was also the issue of how unbelievable it was that Wayne lost his entire fortune so quickly and the way he did. I don’t think anything like that would happen in the real world today especially considering what happened with Bane at the exchange. The FBI would be on something like that immediately. With someone of Wayne’s standing none of those deals and transactions made in his name would be considered valid. It might have been different if that kind of fraud had been done while Bruce was trapped in The Pit and if Bane and his gang had never appeared but as it was it was too easy for all that to be contested. It’s the same kind of lazy scriptwriting that plagued man of steel and BVS. Certain things happen to get us from point a to point b even if they don’t logically make any kind of sense. Rises isn’t a bad movie but it’s poorly thought out in so many ways. As for Scott he’s a great visualist but beyond that he’s only as good as his scripts. He’s never been one that could take a flawed but promising script with some potential and shepherd it to a better creative place. If anything his suggested changes for Prometheus and Robin Hood made them worse. The story felt sloppy to me- and not the finely tuned TDK. Some of the things I wanted taken more seriously, were glossed over. (Catwoman fighting on Batman's level? WTF?) Some of the things they took too seriously, I wanted them to gloss over, too. (The reality of Batman's body falling apart took away from the shock of Bane being able to beat the crap out of him, if he was already physically falling apart) I was HUGELY disappointed.... but I really feel like it was the pressure of the time crunch and not being exactly what Nolan was into doing at the time. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 4, 2021 8:56:14 GMT -5
Metallo In agreement with you there- TDKR also had some hair raising plot holes which blatantly contradicted Nolan's affinity for reality based story telling. A Supes reboot would do well to avoid such obvious pitfalls which are usually associated with restricted time that is allocated to the script. Nolan's ideas for the TDKR were squeezed in between the the development of Inception and Interstellar...and it shows. Stuff like dialogue and plot points usually entail many iterations in the development of the script. STM had an extensive evolution script wise. IMHO a Supes reboot would benefit from similar scrutiny with regards to the development of it's script. Would be interested to see that infographic that you mentioned----good point....Supes has been shafted dialogue wise: "You better step back.....maybe a little further" Seriously ...Metropolis is being shredded by the World Engine and Supes is more concerned about where Lois is standing!---lol ps I hear you on Prometheus and Covenant. Poor ol' Scott just can't rekindle the magic of 79'.....no matter hard he tries. Again rushed scripts don't help......and don't get me started on Lindelof!......keep him away from a Supes reboot script--lol I think of Ridley Scott in the same vein as George Lucas.... I will always be grateful for some classic masterpieces they put out.... but also look away with some of the others that weren't exactly masterpieces and give him credit for some great memories and the influence some of their winners had on cinema in general... There are a lot of similarities there. They’re part of the same generation as filmmakers. Both more concerned with the visual and technical side than the writing and characters. I do think Ridley works better with actors and can get the most out of them. Unfortunately in their later years they’ve both been dead set on whoring out their greatest most influential creations just to squeeze out every last dime. They’ve both lost touch to some extent. Scott even compared Alien to Star Wars when he talked about turning it into a certain kind of money making merchandise machine. The films had a lot of things in common as far as that lived in visual approach but being a mainstream crowd pleasing marketing machine is the one thing they shouldn’t have in common. I’d hate to see the Alien in a happy meal set. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 4, 2021 9:11:10 GMT -5
I’ve never been down on Rises for most of the supposed plot holes people see. The big thing that did bother me though was the Gotham PD officers looking so good considering they were underground for months. Even if they had food they should look a lot more disheveled and dirty. They should also be weak from lack of physical activity and dealing with all kinds of potential respiratory problems. There was also the issue of how unbelievable it was that Wayne lost his entire fortune so quickly and the way he did. I don’t think anything like that would happen in the real world today especially considering what happened with Bane at the exchange. The FBI would be on something like that immediately. With someone of Wayne’s standing none of those deals and transactions made in his name would be considered valid. It might have been different if that kind of fraud had been done while Bruce was trapped in The Pit and if Bane and his gang had never appeared but as it was it was too easy for all that to be contested. It’s the same kind of lazy scriptwriting that plagued man of steel and BVS. Certain things happen to get us from point a to point b even if they don’t logically make any kind of sense. Rises isn’t a bad movie but it’s poorly thought out in so many ways. As for Scott he’s a great visualist but beyond that he’s only as good as his scripts. He’s never been one that could take a flawed but promising script with some potential and shepherd it to a better creative place. If anything his suggested changes for Prometheus and Robin Hood made them worse. The story felt sloppy to me- and not the finely tuned TDK. Some of the things I wanted taken more seriously, were glossed over. (Catwoman fighting on Batman's level? WTF?) Some of the things they took too seriously, I wanted them to gloss over, too. (The reality of Batman's body falling apart took away from the shock of Bane being able to beat the crap out of him, if he was already physically falling apart) I was HUGELY disappointed.... but I really feel like it was the pressure of the time crunch and not being exactly what Nolan was into doing at the time. It wasn’t really a time crunch issue unless they wasted years after The Dark Knight doing no development on the third movie. They had four years between films. That’s more time than there was between the first two. I think Nolan was just more focused on other non Batman films like Inception and never gave Rises the kind of attention it needed during the development process. He had the time it’s just that his use of that time was poor. I didn’t mind that Batman’s body had wear and tear. Not only is that their nod to other stories with an older Batman like Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come but realistically that IS what would happen to someone even in a short amount of time. Batman’s knees and hips would be shot by the time he was 40. I didn’t like how it got glossed over later in the film. If any anything they should have acknowledged it more. Batman didn’t lose the first fight against Bane because he was physically past his prime (that was only a part of it). Bane had some miles on his body too. No Batman lost to Bane because he was overwhelmed and overconfident. He didn’t take Bane seriously as a threat and just saw him as another thug to take down. He fought hard not smart and Bane took advantage of Bruce’s cockyness. The two fights were more influenced by his fights with the mutant gang leader in the Dark Knight Returns story. In that he tried to out muscle their leader with brute force and ended up losing badly. In the rematch he outthought him and took him apart with surgical precision. Batman went for his weaknesses and used his surroundings to his advantage the same way Bane did in Rises. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 4, 2021 20:21:49 GMT -5
The story felt sloppy to me- and not the finely tuned TDK. Some of the things I wanted taken more seriously, were glossed over. (Catwoman fighting on Batman's level? WTF?) Some of the things they took too seriously, I wanted them to gloss over, too. (The reality of Batman's body falling apart took away from the shock of Bane being able to beat the crap out of him, if he was already physically falling apart) I was HUGELY disappointed.... but I really feel like it was the pressure of the time crunch and not being exactly what Nolan was into doing at the time. It wasn’t really a time crunch issue unless they wasted years after The Dark Knight doing no development on the third movie. They had four years between films. That’s more time than there was between the first two. I think Nolan was just more focused on other non Batman films like Inception and never gave Rises the kind of attention it needed during the development process. He had the time it’s just that his use of that time was poor. I didn’t mind that Batman’s body had wear and tear. Not only is that their nod to other stories with an older Batman like Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come but realistically that IS what would happen to someone even in a short amount of time. Batman’s knees and hips would be shot by the time he was 40. I didn’t like how it got glossed over later in the film. If any anything they should have acknowledged it more. Batman didn’t lose the first fight against Bane because he was physically past his prime (that was only a part of it). Bane had some miles on his body too. No Batman lost to Bane because he was overwhelmed and overconfident. He didn’t take Bane seriously as a threat and just saw him as another thug to take down. He fought hard not smart and Bane took advantage of Bruce’s cockyness. The two fights were more influenced by his fights with the mutant gang leader in the Dark Knight Returns story. In that he tried to out muscle their leader with brute force and ended up losing badly. In the rematch he outthought him and took him apart with surgical precision. Batman went for his weaknesses and used his surroundings to his advantage the same way Bane did in Rises. Good points... It seems like Goyer had the dominant hand if Nolan was distracted (he's said that he never focused on sequels, but one movie at a time and that's it) with the other films he was prepping for. And I like Goyer's ideas, but when he was in charge of Blade the tv show- it was really a depressing show- the strongest stuff he's had that I liked were when he had a counterbalance. Batman had elements that could have ignored reality for fantasy, and have been a stronger story- and other elements that could nod/bend to reality and ground it more.... but the items chosen for each on the list were (imo) perfect for TDK, but reversed for TDKR. In any case, I still really like Batman Begins and worship TDK. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 5, 2021 9:10:33 GMT -5
Rises feels more comic bookey than the first two in a of ways warts and all. The scope of the story is much bigger. They tried to cram too much into it and the overall film paid for it. They should have narrowed their focus.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2021 20:26:00 GMT -5
TDKR to me feels very much like Spiderman 3 - overstuffed, but even then I prefer Spiderman 3...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 6, 2021 10:46:09 GMT -5
Tough call. Spider-Man 3 is more fun but I do think Rises is by far the better film. Sandman is a solid bad guy even if they made some ridiculous choices with him. Banes great even if it’s not the comics but they made some questionable choices with him beyond the e character himself.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 6, 2021 14:37:16 GMT -5
@cam and metallo TDKR and Spidey3 actually have the common denominator of trying to stuff too much, too soon in too little space. Sandman was a cool effect for 2007(but hardly groundbreaking by that point). As I said IMHO Bane was the best thing about TDKR......but Bane in isolation was not enough to prop up an overstuffed and uneven script. Indeed Bane could have said to Nolan: "The script betrays you, because it belongs to me!" |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 6, 2021 16:54:43 GMT -5
There are some major differences though. A lot of the stuff in Spider-Man 3 was forced on Raimi by Avi Arad and the studio. No one was forcing Nolan to do anything by that point. Nolan also had more time to develop his movie.
Spider-Man 3 is full of asinine choices that having nothing to do with being crammed with characters or material. The entire concept of Harry losing his memory was just bad as was Sandman killing Uncle Ben. True too much was going on but even those ideas on their own are terrible.
But in the end I still think TDKR turned out to be a much better film than Spider-Man 3.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 7, 2021 1:20:22 GMT -5
There are some major differences though. A lot of the stuff in Spider-Man 3 was forced on Raimi by Avi Arad and the studio. No one was forcing Nolan to do anything by that point. Nolan also had more time to develop his movie. Spider-Man 3 is full of asinine choices that having nothing to do with being crammed with characters or material. The entire concept of Harry losing his memory was just bad as was Sandman killing Uncle Ben. True too much was going on but even those ideas on their own are terrible. But in the end I still think TDKR turned out to be a much better film than Spider-Man 3. The book on the making of Spiderman 3 suprisingly wasn't a puff piece but showed a lot of mistakes made in the production- and/or things that explained why things resulted in such a mess. If the third Spiderman split into two films as originally planned (Spiderman 3 & 4)- with the first one just dealing with Sandman/Osborne and the 4th one with Venom... I think it would have been better, but.... the problem to me was that they were smashing in 3 different movies into one. The conflict with resolving the Green Goblin was enough for one movie, the retcon with Sandoman killing Ben Parker (I agree it's a mistake), and the last with Venom and the personality changes for Parker all might have worked in 3 different films. TDKR though.... to me, it's like a poor Zack Snyder film minus the cool images now and then. Yup, I do think it's THAT bad. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 7, 2021 9:27:07 GMT -5
I think Spiderman 3 would have been less bad if it was split into two films but those two films still would have had problems. Sandman’s origin is still paper thin and cliched and Brock/Venom as a concept sound be terrible. There would also have to be changes to his origin. The Venom movie did a far better job of introducing the symbiote. Spider-Man 3 and 4 would have given more time to develop characters like Gwen though.
I can’t compare TDKR and a Snyder film. Nolan, even at his worst, is still better than Snyder at his best imo. Snyder may have “cool” imagery in his films but at least Nolan strives for some depth of story and character and that goes a long way with me. I just don’t care about anyone or anything in Snyder’s DC movies. Superman died and it didn’t register with me at all emotionally. Compare how Rises handled its big moments from Knightfall to how BvS handles its big moments from The Death of Superman. Nolan made a much stronger impression with his handling of a similar 90s comic book event story.
At least Rises has some strong performances and story elements. Snyder takes great actors and handcuffs them with a lack of direction. Amy Adams is one of the best actresses of her generation and yet she was pretty forgettable in BvS. Adams said if herself she was disappointed there wasn’t more there. The only one who made any kind of impression in MOS to me was Michael Shannon and even that went off the rails at the end.
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Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
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Post by Metallo on Feb 8, 2021 17:13:06 GMT -5
MetalloWould be interested to see that infographic that you mentioned----good point....Supes has been shafted dialogue wise:  Now someone just needs to add his number of lines from Justice League. |
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