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Post by Kamdan on Jan 26, 2021 5:00:24 GMT -5
Just read this on Sarah Douglas’ Facebook. Very sad to find this out due to the last couple of years, I attempted to track her down for a more in-depth interview about her and her husband’s involvement with Superman. We got extremely brief sound bites from her and Robert Benton on the You Will Believe documentary.
We hear an awful lot about Mankiewicz’s rewrite and all we ever hear about the Newmans’ rewrite is that Kojak cameo. They deserve more credit than that. Just because there’s a joke like that in the script doesn’t mean it’s gonna fly in the final cut.
Robert Benton is apparently still alive at age 88, but I feel like an attempt at interviewing him would be like in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood when Brad Pitt tried to talk to Bruce Dern.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jan 26, 2021 12:03:07 GMT -5
Just read this on Sarah Douglas’ Facebook. Very sad to find this out due to the last couple of years, I attempted to track her down for a more in-depth interview about her and her husband’s involvement with Superman. We got extremely brief sound bites from her and Robert Benton on the You Will Believe documentary. We hear an awful lot about Mankiewicz’s rewrite and all we ever hear about the Newmans’ rewrite is that Kojak cameo. They deserve more credit than that. Just because there’s a joke like that in the script doesn’t mean it’s gonna fly in the final cut. Robert Benton is apparently still alive at age 88, but I feel like an attempt at interviewing him would be like in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood when Brad Pitt tried to talk to Bruce Dern. Totally agree and that is sad to hear. The screenplay is multi layered with regards to it's evolution. First Puzo, then Benton & the Newmans and finally Mank. They all contributed equally to that final product. People tend to forget Benton directed Kramer V Kramer which is one of the finest American social dramas in cinematic history. Given that fact, I think Benton may have also helped to "ground" the screenplays for I and II. Would like to see those post Puzo and pre-Mank scripts to see their contribution. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 26, 2021 15:08:16 GMT -5
Just read this on Sarah Douglas’ Facebook. Very sad to find this out due to the last couple of years, I attempted to track her down for a more in-depth interview about her and her husband’s involvement with Superman. We got extremely brief sound bites from her and Robert Benton on the You Will Believe documentary. We hear an awful lot about Mankiewicz’s rewrite and all we ever hear about the Newmans’ rewrite is that Kojak cameo. They deserve more credit than that. Just because there’s a joke like that in the script doesn’t mean it’s gonna fly in the final cut. Robert Benton is apparently still alive at age 88, but I feel like an attempt at interviewing him would be like in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood when Brad Pitt tried to talk to Bruce Dern. I feel bad for her passing away, but.... they were working from Puzo's original script. The original script is what I am excited to see. From seeing their work on SIII, I don't want to be mean, she and her husband may have been great people- so it's only about the work, but I think they got the correct amount of credit owed. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 26, 2021 15:11:42 GMT -5
Weird since I was just thinking about her the other day and actually looked her up on google to study her career and see if she was still around and. Not much beyond her work with her husband. I always wanted to know just how much she contributed to the Lois Lane character and dialogue. Count me in as someone else who wanted to see how the screenplay evolved with each additional writer.
When Tanya Roberts died I read that David Newman was one of the writers brought on to work on the film Sheena along with others like Lorenzo Semple Jr. That really explains a lot about that film.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 26, 2021 15:17:38 GMT -5
Weird since I was just thinking about her the other day and actually looked her up on google to study her career and see if she was still around and. Not much beyond her work with her husband. I always wanted to know just how much she contributed to the Lois Lane character and dialogue. Count me in as someone else who wanted to see how the screenplay evolved with each additional writer. When Tanya Roberts died I read that David Newman was one of the writers brought on to work on the film Sheena along with others like Lorenzo Semple Jr. That really explains a lot about that film. The SII scripts for comparison (just not the Puzo one) are available here: www.bigapricot.net/scripts/index.shtml |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 26, 2021 20:21:41 GMT -5
Despite some questionable senses of humor (which feels no different than the James Bond movies of the period), they still were responsible for some dynamite material for the three films.
Many scenes, namely the balcony scene, were very much left intact by Donner and Mankiewicz, along with the comedic nature of the Luthor scenes. All they had to do was add a line here or there (“Peter pan flew with children Lois... in a fairytale.”) or just simply remove elements all together (The second henchman Albert and Luthor’s tic of eating Kleenex). There’s a reason why Mankiewicz was only allowed the Creative Consultant credit instead of the screenplay credit Donner thought he deserved.
Their work with Lester was valued in Superman II. That memory kiss scene is pretty solid. Donner and Mankiewicz had written a kid falling asleep in a row boat that falls over Niagara Falls. They got it right in the first place and that’s how it was filmed. You could tell Donner and Mankiewicz were jealous of its quality when they made up that terrible excuse of “Clark shouldn’t kiss Lois. Only Superman should.” He took his glasses off when he did it, so he’s Superman in my eye. They provided much needed personalities for the Phantom Zone villains that was absent in Donner and Mankiewicz’s revision.
They also essentially laid out the ground work for the modern interpretation of Luthor with the character of Ross Webster. Someone caught onto that at DC but never wanted to admit where their source was. All of this should be placed under consideration before they’re called out for that Kojak cameo and Superman III.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 26, 2021 20:50:17 GMT -5
Despite some questionable senses of humor (which feels no different than the James Bond movies of the period), they still were responsible for some dynamite material for the three films. Many scenes, namely the balcony scene, were very much left intact by Donner and Mankiewicz, along with the comedic nature of the Luthor scenes. All they had to do was add a line here or there (“Peter pan flew with children Lois... in a fairytale.”) or just simply remove elements all together (The second henchman Albert and Luthor’s tic of eating Kleenex). There’s a reason why Mankiewicz was only allowed the Creative Consultant credit instead of the screenplay credit Donner thought he deserved. Their work with Lester was valued in Superman II. That memory kiss scene is pretty solid. Donner and Mankiewicz had written a kid falling asleep in a row boat that falls over Niagara Falls. They got it right in the first place and that’s how it was filmed. You could tell Donner and Mankiewicz were jealous of its quality when they made up that terrible excuse of “Clark shouldn’t kiss Lois. Only Superman should.” He took his glasses off when he did it, so he’s Superman in my eye. They provided much needed personalities for the Phantom Zone villains that was absent in Donner and Mankiewicz’s revision. They also essentially laid out the ground work for the modern interpretation of Luthor with the character of Ross Webster. Someone caught onto that at DC but never wanted to admit where their source was. All of this should be placed under consideration before they’re called out for that Kojak cameo and Superman III. Hmmm..... I guess it's open to perspective on whether or not Donner & Mank were jealous of quality... (I guess we'll agree that we both see it differently) but I'll admit the phrasse is weird that he said! In the Newman's draft, Superman originally heats up a glass of water with his heat vision and hands it to Lois to make her forget--- so glad that they didn't go THAT route! (It definitely would NOT have aged well!)  Reeve in an interview said that he suggested a kiss to remove her memory, and I would have been fine with that, but I wish it had been executed in a more romantic and poignant way if it was going to be done that way. (Could they have gone to the rooftop? I would have restaged it at Lois' apartment the day later, maybe Lois hasn't gone in to work for days & Clark shows up at the door- same speech then the kiss, and then Supes/Clark carries to her bed to zzzz.... more fairy-tale like. And she forgets when she wakes up. Corny, maybe, but if going to do something with that kind of romanticism, why not have nice visuals to match it?) Verisimilitude did an EXCELLENT sequence to the kiss where-once the kiss was happening- there's a flash of light suggesting her pov- he faded it to black and white images briefly of all the 'highs' and 'lows' that she was going to forget against music --- was extremely sad and moving! Almost teared up watching it-- it was only a few seconds, but it's amazing what even a shot or do can do to change a film! To be fair, I did read the rewritten script (which was cool how the copy I had, there was a line through the Donner stuff shot & parenthesis on items they were already going to trim out... probably a scan on the web somewehere)--- and then the original Mank script--- but not the one previous to Mank's participation. So, I probably should look on the prior script before commenting more. In any case, good discussion!  I do have a question: what did/do you think of the extended balcony/Fos scenes as written by Mank? |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 27, 2021 9:08:30 GMT -5
I think it’s very poignant and romantic as is. At the same time, Donner and Mankiewicz handled their version of the scene with Superman and Lois outside the destroyed Fortress leading to her drop off at the balcony quite as effective as well. I still remember seeing that scene for the first time on a website where it was the size of a postage stamp. I couldn’t believe that that wasn’t in the theatrical cut but now that I think about it you can’t really have those scenes back to back because they contradict what’s being said.
With Donner‘s version you get the sense that she’ll learn to live a deal with his dual identity, which is the ending the Donner Cut should have gone with instead of using that cockamamie turning the world backwards gag again. Lester kept that same emotion going with the Newmans rewrite that more emphasized the schizophrenic nature of the Superman character, which was one of their keen interest in the character dating back to their involvement with the Superman musical. That at the time was considered to be more serious and intellectual take on what was believed to be funny books for children.
It is a bit unfair to completely judge Donner’s script for II based sorely off of the script. There’s still a few out of place elements in Mankiewicz’s script for I, like how the whole gauntlet scene was to occur after Superman’s first appearance. That would have been a gigantic shift of the pacing had that been placed there. It’s still a terrific sequence to see Superman shot at, burned and frozen but it is quite superfluous and was correctly cut out of the theatrical version. I certainly hope that Donner and Mankiewicz wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of doing the straightening of the Tower of Pisa scene that later popped up in Superman III.
I’m convinced that Donner thought Warners would take over from the Salkinds and they would be able to rework and scrap most the material done for II while they did I. Donner once commented that he would have liked another six months to complete the first one, despite them missing the initial summer release date. He possibly wanted to treat II as a whole new production but the Salkinds and Spengler told him to use what’s already been done, especially since Hackman and Brando’s stuff was already done. Donner may have also quit if he came back if he was told to replace Jor-El with Lara, so everything is a no win situation.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jan 28, 2021 9:43:34 GMT -5
I think it’s very poignant and romantic as is. At the same time, Donner and Mankiewicz handled their version of the scene with Superman and Lois outside the destroyed Fortress leading to her drop off at the balcony quite as effective as well. I still remember seeing that scene for the first time on a website where it was the size of a postage stamp. I couldn’t believe that that wasn’t in the theatrical cut but now that I think about it you can’t really have those scenes back to back because they contradict what’s being said. With Donner‘s version you get the sense that she’ll learn to live a deal with his dual identity, which is the ending the Donner Cut should have gone with instead of using that cockamamie turning the world backwards gag again. Lester kept that same emotion going with the Newmans rewrite that more emphasized the schizophrenic nature of the Superman character, which was one of their keen interest in the character dating back to their involvement with the Superman musical. That at the time was considered to be more serious and intellectual take on what was believed to be funny books for children. It is a bit unfair to completely judge Donner’s script for II based sorely off of the script. There’s still a few out of place elements in Mankiewicz’s script for I, like how the whole gauntlet scene was to occur after Superman’s first appearance. That would have been a gigantic shift of the pacing had that been placed there. It’s still a terrific sequence to see Superman shot at, burned and frozen but it is quite superfluous and was correctly cut out of the theatrical version. I certainly hope that Donner and Mankiewicz wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of doing the straightening of the Tower of Pisa scene that later popped up in Superman III. I’m convinced that Donner thought Warners would take over from the Salkinds and they would be able to rework and scrap most the material done for II while they did I. Donner once commented that he would have liked another six months to complete the first one, despite them missing the initial summer release date. He possibly wanted to treat II as a whole new production but the Salkinds and Spengler told him to use what’s already been done, especially since Hackman and Brando’s stuff was already done. Donner may have also quit if he came back if he was told to replace Jor-El with Lara, so everything is a no win situation. That's an interesting hypothesis with regards to Donner wanting to scrap his own II material whilst working on I. Personally think the straightening of the Tower of Pisa(if filmed correctly and with integrity---I am sure it would have been) would have been cool to see......also added scope to the story....encompassing a global scale(as opposed to just the USA). Had that Tower of Pisa scene not been filmed well.......Baird would have cut it out......that guy was the equivalent of an editing sharp shooter! The concord scene was cut from STM because that final effect of Supe's barreling away was just not quite up to scratch. The same could be applied to the X101 scene....where Supe's tries to wait in advance of the rocket only to be deceived by it's speed. It's great to see as a cut shot but it has issues with optical alignments ect.....it also detracts from the pace of the sequence as a whole.....and Baird/Donner did well to excise that one from the theatrical version. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 28, 2021 20:51:51 GMT -5
I think it’s very poignant and romantic as is. At the same time, Donner and Mankiewicz handled their version of the scene with Superman and Lois outside the destroyed Fortress leading to her drop off at the balcony quite as effective as well. I still remember seeing that scene for the first time on a website where it was the size of a postage stamp. I couldn’t believe that that wasn’t in the theatrical cut but now that I think about it you can’t really have those scenes back to back because they contradict what’s being said. With Donner‘s version you get the sense that she’ll learn to live a deal with his dual identity, which is the ending the Donner Cut should have gone with instead of using that cockamamie turning the world backwards gag again. Lester kept that same emotion going with the Newmans rewrite that more emphasized the schizophrenic nature of the Superman character, which was one of their keen interest in the character dating back to their involvement with the Superman musical. That at the time was considered to be more serious and intellectual take on what was believed to be funny books for children. It is a bit unfair to completely judge Donner’s script for II based sorely off of the script. There’s still a few out of place elements in Mankiewicz’s script for I, like how the whole gauntlet scene was to occur after Superman’s first appearance. That would have been a gigantic shift of the pacing had that been placed there. It’s still a terrific sequence to see Superman shot at, burned and frozen but it is quite superfluous and was correctly cut out of the theatrical version. I certainly hope that Donner and Mankiewicz wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of doing the straightening of the Tower of Pisa scene that later popped up in Superman III. I’m convinced that Donner thought Warners would take over from the Salkinds and they would be able to rework and scrap most the material done for II while they did I. Donner once commented that he would have liked another six months to complete the first one, despite them missing the initial summer release date. He possibly wanted to treat II as a whole new production but the Salkinds and Spengler told him to use what’s already been done, especially since Hackman and Brando’s stuff was already done. Donner may have also quit if he came back if he was told to replace Jor-El with Lara, so everything is a no win situation. I based Donner's work that might have happened not just on the Mank script, but what we got from him around the same time period: the underrated Ladyhawke, Inside Moves, and the first couple of Lethal Weapon series. He did also have duds, but even there, the performances were pretty good. I based Lester's work not just on what drove me crazy on first view of SII, but SIII and half of the Four Musketeers, which is a bit of a mess. Three Musketeers was fantastic, though. With the gauntlet scene- It's a scene I think is fantastic and wish was left in... so I was very thrilled when it was re-installed in 2006 but moreso with the extended tv cut. Would it have slowed the pace? I would have been energized by it, I might have trimmed other bits instead for pacing, particularly some of hte Otis & Luthor bits. I also loved the re-insertion of the bit where Supes gets to the rocket in time, and it dodges him... to me, that added to the difficulty of catching the rocket and also felt that should have been left in... So- again, all subjective. Would Donner have quit over Brando? That's an excellent question that was never posed to Dick Donner- I kind of wish it did.... my own opinion would have been to recast and keep the story as intended. I don't like the idea of changing a horse in mid-race... I would not have been crazy about the compromise, but it would have been a bigger one with Donner leaving. If he had to do with a lower budget, I still would have wanted Donner to stay- the tone and the performances and the story were the core of it to me. Of course, I loved the production values, but if it were one or the other... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 28, 2021 20:53:55 GMT -5
I think it’s very poignant and romantic as is. At the same time, Donner and Mankiewicz handled their version of the scene with Superman and Lois outside the destroyed Fortress leading to her drop off at the balcony quite as effective as well. I still remember seeing that scene for the first time on a website where it was the size of a postage stamp. I couldn’t believe that that wasn’t in the theatrical cut but now that I think about it you can’t really have those scenes back to back because they contradict what’s being said. With Donner‘s version you get the sense that she’ll learn to live a deal with his dual identity, which is the ending the Donner Cut should have gone with instead of using that cockamamie turning the world backwards gag again. Lester kept that same emotion going with the Newmans rewrite that more emphasized the schizophrenic nature of the Superman character, which was one of their keen interest in the character dating back to their involvement with the Superman musical. That at the time was considered to be more serious and intellectual take on what was believed to be funny books for children. It is a bit unfair to completely judge Donner’s script for II based sorely off of the script. There’s still a few out of place elements in Mankiewicz’s script for I, like how the whole gauntlet scene was to occur after Superman’s first appearance. That would have been a gigantic shift of the pacing had that been placed there. It’s still a terrific sequence to see Superman shot at, burned and frozen but it is quite superfluous and was correctly cut out of the theatrical version. I certainly hope that Donner and Mankiewicz wouldn’t have gone through the trouble of doing the straightening of the Tower of Pisa scene that later popped up in Superman III. I’m convinced that Donner thought Warners would take over from the Salkinds and they would be able to rework and scrap most the material done for II while they did I. Donner once commented that he would have liked another six months to complete the first one, despite them missing the initial summer release date. He possibly wanted to treat II as a whole new production but the Salkinds and Spengler told him to use what’s already been done, especially since Hackman and Brando’s stuff was already done. Donner may have also quit if he came back if he was told to replace Jor-El with Lara, so everything is a no win situation. That's an interesting hypothesis with regards to Donner wanting to scrap his own II material whilst working on I. Personally think the straightening of the Tower of Pisa(if filmed correctly and with integrity---I am sure it would have been) would have been cool to see......also added scope to the story....encompassing a global scale(as opposed to just the USA). Had that Tower of Pisa scene not been filmed well.......Baird would have cut it out......that guy was the equivalent of an editing sharp shooter! The concord scene was cut from STM because that final effect of Supe's barreling away was just not quite up to scratch. The same could be applied to the X101 scene....where Supe's tries to wait in advance of the rocket only to be deceived by it's speed. It's great to see as a cut shot but it has issues with optical alignments ect.....it also detracts from the pace of the sequence as a whole.....and Baird/Donner did well to excise that one from the theatrical version. The concorde scene seemed extraneous to the STM script- as well as the scene of SUpes flying with the eagle (I wonder if that ever got shot?)- so it was a nice suprise to see it popped into the extended SII tv cut. |
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