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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 19, 2021 22:11:13 GMT -5
I know I'm late to the game, but finally saw it. To my giant surprise...
Overall...
I liked it... moreso than all of the other Snyder superhero films.
While it's pretty insane that a director would want to re-visualize Kirby's visions into big bugs and bizzare that anyone on the planet would 'gleefully' kill off a character like Jimmy Olsen then turn around and offer Marc McClure a cameo....
I felt like there was a lot more in the story that worked to Snyder's strengths than to his weaknesses here.
Some thoughts:
#1: I was giantly suprised how much was shot by Snyder and not by Whedon. I was certain that all the humorous Flash moments were reshoots by Whedon.
#2: The Wonder Woman/Amazon material REALLY shines by seeing this after the giantly disappointing WW84. It makes sense. He made his mark with "300" and the action and tone is very much like that.
#3: The Batman action sequence in the beginning of the theatrical I thought was Snyder's was actually Whedon's. Go figure!
#4: The whole story construction based around Cyborg's story actually worked really well and was more impactful than the trimmed-down Whedon rewrite- though, to be fair, how could you chop this down to 2 hours?
#5: Bits of Whedon I missed- the Batman sequence in the beginning, the bit where Batman says a bit about Steve Trevor that pisses off WW to get her to punch Bats, the race between Supes/Flash at the end, the 'just save one' pep talk by Bats to Flash, and the 'I don't...NOT miss you' quip by Bats to Supes.
#6: A perfect cut would blend in the nice Whedon touches.... but overall the editing was pretty good, I thought. Zack's major weaknesses I feel are dramatic scenes that fall flat- that end up unintentionally laughable- (there's still bits of those TRULY awful moments- the bit with the doctor telling Dr. Stone his wife is dead and son won't make it is excruciatingly bad in its execution and the not-subtle at all moment where Cyborg helps the woman get rich at an ATM) but for the 4 hours and a lowered bar I thought most of this worked and had a good energy all the way through... splitting it up into chapters definitely helped I think.
#7: Ray Fisher really comes off as a great presence in this film- but given his prominence, it's easy to understand how annoyed he was at the theatrical.
Would be interesting to see a cut that trims the poor bits and adds a few of the Whedon moments I liked.
Not perfect, but Chris Terrio/Snyder was definitely a giant improvement over the Goyer/Snyder collboration... not enough of an imporovement to want the Snyderverse restored, but... was enjoyable enough.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 14, 2021 10:23:41 GMT -5
Technically I should not comment in this thread as I have still not seen the Snyder cut.
But I have seen Snyder's latest slam , bang and wallop em' movie, Army Of The Dead, on Netflix.
I do find it very interesting that Snyder chooses to make a blood and guts horror flick(all be it with a touch of Syderesque humour).......after having experienced something as traumatic as the death of his own daughter. It's almost like the guy wants to take the piss out of death......instead of trying to comprehend it.
But basically, I am pretty sure I don't have to watch the Snyder Cut.....as Army Of The Dead pretty much has all the same ingredients.
The Zombie gymnasts in Army bare a striking resemblance to the Parademons in Justice.....in both their movements and the way they scream!
Just to wrap it all up Los Angeles gets nuked........simulating the destruction seen in MOS,DOJ and JL.
Even the premise in Army......a bunch of rag tag mercenaries getting together to take on the zombies and retrieve the Maguffin(money in a vault)........is not dissimilar to the way our Superheroes band together in JL to get hold of the MotherBoxes.
And Dave Buattista does the same kind of one on one, hand to hand combat with the zombies.....that Affleck performs against Luthor's goons in DOJ.
And on and on it goes.
Yawn.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2021 11:44:59 GMT -5
Technically I should not comment in this thread as I have still not seen the Snyder cut. But I have seen Snyder's latest slam , bang and wallop em' movie, Army Of The Dead, on Netflix. I do find it very interesting that Snyder chooses to make a blood and guts horror flick(all be it with a touch of Syderesque humour).......after having experienced something as traumatic as the death of his own daughter. It's almost like the guy wants to take the piss out of death......instead of trying to comprehend it. But basically, I am pretty sure I don't have to watch the Snyder Cut.....as Army Of The Dead pretty much has all the same ingredients. The Zombie gymnasts in Army bare a striking resemblance to the Parademons in Justice.....in both their movements and the way they scream! Just to wrap it all up Los Angeles gets nuked........simulating the destruction seen in MOS,DOJ and JL. Even the premise in Army......a bunch of rag tag mercenaries getting together to take on the zombies and retrieve the Maguffin(money in a vault)........is not dissimilar to the way our Superheroes band together in JL to get hold of the MotherBoxes. And Dave Buattista does the same kind of one on one, hand to hand combat with the zombies.....that Affleck performs against Luthor's goons in DOJ. And on and on it goes. Yawn. Hm- well, the family matters I avoid talking about with Snyder- because the situation is so awful that I sidestep chatting about any connection with his work and home tragedy- however anyone might deal with it, I'm just glad if I'm not in their shoes.... With Justice League- it's not David Goyer writing it, so it avoids the despair and bleakness I think Goyer's solo work has that pushes 'dark' a little too far, without a healthy counterbalance... But- even from an editorial standpoint, it's an interesting excercise to view both. Much is the same footage, but there definitely are some major story and character arcs that are reinserted that give JL the backbone that the theatrical didn't really have. (Even though I enjoyed the theatrical also). While the story may have a number of logic gaps (why does Supes' death wake up the three mother boxes in the beginning?)- Snyder did achieve an epic feeling to the work, partly by removing a lot of the humor, but the music and insertions also added to it, as well. If nothing else, an interesting study in re-editing at the very least... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 14, 2021 18:43:23 GMT -5
Technically I should not comment in this thread as I have still not seen the Snyder cut. But I have seen Snyder's latest slam , bang and wallop em' movie, Army Of The Dead, on Netflix. I do find it very interesting that Snyder chooses to make a blood and guts horror flick(all be it with a touch of Syderesque humour).......after having experienced something as traumatic as the death of his own daughter. It's almost like the guy wants to take the piss out of death......instead of trying to comprehend it. But basically, I am pretty sure I don't have to watch the Snyder Cut.....as Army Of The Dead pretty much has all the same ingredients. The Zombie gymnasts in Army bare a striking resemblance to the Parademons in Justice.....in both their movements and the way they scream! Just to wrap it all up Los Angeles gets nuked........simulating the destruction seen in MOS,DOJ and JL. Even the premise in Army......a bunch of rag tag mercenaries getting together to take on the zombies and retrieve the Maguffin(money in a vault)........is not dissimilar to the way our Superheroes band together in JL to get hold of the MotherBoxes. And Dave Buattista does the same kind of one on one, hand to hand combat with the zombies.....that Affleck performs against Luthor's goons in DOJ. And on and on it goes. Yawn. I found Army of the Dead to be a fun men on a mission zombie action adventure but a lousy film and piece of storytelling. It could also be at least 20 minutes shorter. There’s one scene with a tiger that was a textbook example of something that could have been trimmed but it was overly long and violent just for the sake of it. It’s got all the hallmark problems of a Zack Snyder film: boated excess, huge gaps in logic, and weak characters doing stuff that makes absolutely no sense. The soldiers at the opening were doing things that were completely idiotic. Like why run into the desert instead of getting back into the Humvee? I loved the German safe cracker but why would they need one since the guy who owned the hotel and casino could just give them the combination or some kind of key card to get it? It was HIS money? Snyder wanted fast zombies AND slow zombies after all the flak he got for his fast zombies in the dawn of the dead remake. It felt like overkill to do both. I could forgive the zombie king somehow getting his hands on a forged metal helmet/cowl somehow but why are robot zombies in the film? Snyder threw in stuff for a future movie that just completely distracted from this one. Stevie Wonder could have seen one obvious character turn coming and the big twist at the end was silly since what the rich guy wanted would be easy to get without the elaborate scheme. There was no need to go through all that. Finally the reason the daughter went along and the reason things went south was COMPLETELY glosses over. I really am starting the think Snyder is some kind of high functioning idiot if simple stuff in the film gets totally forgotten about like that. I do think the father daughter story of the film was Snyder trying to work out some feelings he had after his own daughters death. I can’t fault him for that |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 14, 2021 18:57:03 GMT -5
I know I'm late to the game, but finally saw it. To my giant surprise... Overall... I liked it... moreso than all of the other Snyder superhero films. While it's pretty insane that a director would want to re-visualize Kirby's visions into big bugs and bizzare that anyone on the planet would 'gleefully' kill off a character like Jimmy Olsen then turn around and offer Marc McClure a cameo.... I felt like there was a lot more in the story that worked to Snyder's strengths than to his weaknesses here. Some thoughts: #1: I was giantly suprised how much was shot by Snyder and not by Whedon. I was certain that all the humorous Flash moments were reshoots by Whedon. #2: The Wonder Woman/Amazon material REALLY shines by seeing this after the giantly disappointing WW84. It makes sense. He made his mark with "300" and the action and tone is very much like that. #3: The Batman action sequence in the beginning of the theatrical I thought was Snyder's was actually Whedon's. Go figure! #4: The whole story construction based around Cyborg's story actually worked really well and was more impactful than the trimmed-down Whedon rewrite- though, to be fair, how could you chop this down to 2 hours? #5: Bits of Whedon I missed- the Batman sequence in the beginning, the bit where Batman says a bit about Steve Trevor that pisses off WW to get her to punch Bats, the race between Supes/Flash at the end, the 'just save one' pep talk by Bats to Flash, and the 'I don't...NOT miss you' quip by Bats to Supes. #6: A perfect cut would blend in the nice Whedon touches.... but overall the editing was pretty good, I thought. Zack's major weaknesses I feel are dramatic scenes that fall flat- that end up unintentionally laughable- (there's still bits of those TRULY awful moments- the bit with the doctor telling Dr. Stone his wife is dead and son won't make it is excruciatingly bad in its execution and the not-subtle at all moment where Cyborg helps the woman get rich at an ATM) but for the 4 hours and a lowered bar I thought most of this worked and had a good energy all the way through... splitting it up into chapters definitely helped I think. #7: Ray Fisher really comes off as a great presence in this film- but given his prominence, it's easy to understand how annoyed he was at the theatrical. Would be interesting to see a cut that trims the poor bits and adds a few of the Whedon moments I liked. Not perfect, but Chris Terrio/Snyder was definitely a giant improvement over the Goyer/Snyder collboration... not enough of an imporovement to want the Snyderverse restored, but... was enjoyable enough. Women. Singing. Constantly. Women singing anytime Wonder Woman does anything. Women singing when Aquaman takes his shirt off for what seemed like ten minutes. If someone could have reigned Snyder in to cut an hour out of the movie it would have been so much better. It’s more consistent than the theatrical cut but you can see why WB wanted the the movie trimmed. Two hours was too short but the four hour cut was never going to see movie screens. The black suit felt like it had no point on this movie and was even more strange since the times we did see a black Superman suit before in MOS it was something disturbing. I didn’t miss most of Whedons awful humor WB and Whedon made the right call to just have him return in the red and blue which represented hope. That’s what Superman’s return should have meant. Some things Whedon did improve on particularly with the character moments. Wonder Woman came off as excessively violent in the Snyder cut instead of the crusader for peace that the other non Snyder movies have tried to make her out to be. She did almost as much damage as the bomb would have. Toning that down in the theatrical cut was the smart call. Darkseid lacked character or depth. When you compare him to Thanos he just comes off as yet another big cgi monster man who wants to just destroy. Cyborg was much improved but I’d rather Silas had lived. The evil Superman wasteland future stuff was Snyder jerking off to his dream of doing an injustice movie. I found Leto to be just as insufferable as before as Joker. The Snyder cut is more consistent and in a lot of ways is better but for the most part I found it to be a lateral move. And I’ll say it: the Martian Manhunter stuff felt useless in addition to being laughably bad. Nothing but fan service that the movie didn’t need. The fact that they easily swapped him with original choice John Stewart is proof of how tacked on it all was. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2021 18:57:18 GMT -5
Technically I should not comment in this thread as I have still not seen the Snyder cut. But I have seen Snyder's latest slam , bang and wallop em' movie, Army Of The Dead, on Netflix. I do find it very interesting that Snyder chooses to make a blood and guts horror flick(all be it with a touch of Syderesque humour).......after having experienced something as traumatic as the death of his own daughter. It's almost like the guy wants to take the piss out of death......instead of trying to comprehend it. But basically, I am pretty sure I don't have to watch the Snyder Cut.....as Army Of The Dead pretty much has all the same ingredients. The Zombie gymnasts in Army bare a striking resemblance to the Parademons in Justice.....in both their movements and the way they scream! Just to wrap it all up Los Angeles gets nuked........simulating the destruction seen in MOS,DOJ and JL. Even the premise in Army......a bunch of rag tag mercenaries getting together to take on the zombies and retrieve the Maguffin(money in a vault)........is not dissimilar to the way our Superheroes band together in JL to get hold of the MotherBoxes. And Dave Buattista does the same kind of one on one, hand to hand combat with the zombies.....that Affleck performs against Luthor's goons in DOJ. And on and on it goes. Yawn. I found Army of the Dead to be a fun men on a mission zombie action adventure but a lousy film and piece of storytelling. It could also be at least 20 minutes shorter. There’s one scene with a tiger that was a textbook example of something that could have been trimmed but it was overly long and violent just for the sake of it. It’s got all the hallmark problems of a Zack Snyder film: boated excess, huge gaps in logic, and weak characters doing stuff that makes absolutely no sense. The soldiers at the opening were doing things that were completely idiotic. Like why run into the desert instead of getting back into the Humvee? I loved the German safe cracker but why would they need one since the guy who owned the hotel and casino could just give them the combination or some kind of key card to get it? It was HIS money? Snyder wanted fast zombies AND slow zombies after all the flak he got for his fast zombies in the dawn of the dead remake. It felt like overkill to do both. I could forgive the zombie king somehow getting his hands on a forged metal helmet/cowl somehow but why are robot zombies in the film? Snyder threw in stuff for a future movie that just completely distracted from this one. Stevie Wonder could have seen one obvious character turn coming and the big twist at the end was silly since what the rich guy wanted would be easy to get without the elaborate scheme. There was no need to go through all that. Finally the reason the daughter went along and the reason things went south was COMPLETELY glosses over. I really am starting the think Snyder is some kind of high functioning idiot if simple stuff in the film gets totally forgotten about like that. I do think the father daughter story of the film was Snyder trying to work out some feelings he had after his own daughters death. I can’t fault him for that Metallo, your review suddenly made me think of a filmmaker whose work I mostly enjoyed- but... also was a filmmaker who allowed giant gaps of logic and bits of ridiculousness to it- John Woo. (LIke most filmmakers, he has his bombs and 'meh' movies too) The difference between the two, though- is that (imo) Woo has a giant heart at the core of even his most violent (and some are extremely violent) film noir shoot-em-ups and a bend towards having the hero go on a path of redemption--- whereas with much of the Snyder work I've seen--- particularly his "Sucker Punch" and "Watchmen"- It's really difficult to find the heart in Snyder's work. I see spots where he would LIKE to show the characters have a heart, but it almost always seems to fall flat. The two have (imo) a great visual style- and both have excesses in their movies- to a point of ridiculousness at times... but somehow Woo's stories have a core that redeems its excesses--- while with Snyder's often it just feels like the core is not there. Anyhow... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 14, 2021 19:03:58 GMT -5
I found Army of the Dead to be a fun men on a mission zombie action adventure but a lousy film and piece of storytelling. It could also be at least 20 minutes shorter. There’s one scene with a tiger that was a textbook example of something that could have been trimmed but it was overly long and violent just for the sake of it. It’s got all the hallmark problems of a Zack Snyder film: boated excess, huge gaps in logic, and weak characters doing stuff that makes absolutely no sense. The soldiers at the opening were doing things that were completely idiotic. Like why run into the desert instead of getting back into the Humvee? I loved the German safe cracker but why would they need one since the guy who owned the hotel and casino could just give them the combination or some kind of key card to get it? It was HIS money? Snyder wanted fast zombies AND slow zombies after all the flak he got for his fast zombies in the dawn of the dead remake. It felt like overkill to do both. I could forgive the zombie king somehow getting his hands on a forged metal helmet/cowl somehow but why are robot zombies in the film? Snyder threw in stuff for a future movie that just completely distracted from this one. Stevie Wonder could have seen one obvious character turn coming and the big twist at the end was silly since what the rich guy wanted would be easy to get without the elaborate scheme. There was no need to go through all that. Finally the reason the daughter went along and the reason things went south was COMPLETELY glosses over. I really am starting the think Snyder is some kind of high functioning idiot if simple stuff in the film gets totally forgotten about like that. I do think the father daughter story of the film was Snyder trying to work out some feelings he had after his own daughters death. I can’t fault him for that Metallo, your review suddenly made me think of a filmmaker whose work I mostly enjoyed- but... also was a filmmaker who allowed giant gaps of logic and bits of ridiculousness to it- John Woo. (LIke most filmmakers, he has his bombs and 'meh' movies too) The difference between the two, though- is that (imo) Woo has a giant heart at the core of even his most violent (and some are extremely violent) film noir shoot-em-ups and a bend towards having the hero go on a path of redemption--- whereas with much of the Snyder work I've seen--- particularly his "Sucker Punch" and "Watchmen"- It's really difficult to find the heart in Snyder's work. I see spots where he would LIKE to show the characters have a heart, but it almost always seems to fall flat. The two have (imo) a great visual style- and both have excesses in their movies- to a point of ridiculousness at times... but somehow Woo's stories have a core that redeems its excesses--- while with Snyder's often it just feels like the core is not there. Anyhow... At least with Woo you can point to the cultural differences between Hong Kong cinema and western cinema to explain away why certain things in his American movies don’t play as well or why he never really had the same kind of success in this part of the world. Different audiences and different cultural storytelling. With Snyder the guy might be in the wrong position in filmmaking. He could certainly stay away from actual script writing. Snyder’s strengths are on the technical and visual sides. When it comes to character and story I think he’s often oblivious to certain basic things. He tries to do to much and gets distracted and his films end up with certain issues. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2021 21:09:34 GMT -5
Metallo, your review suddenly made me think of a filmmaker whose work I mostly enjoyed- but... also was a filmmaker who allowed giant gaps of logic and bits of ridiculousness to it- John Woo. (LIke most filmmakers, he has his bombs and 'meh' movies too) The difference between the two, though- is that (imo) Woo has a giant heart at the core of even his most violent (and some are extremely violent) film noir shoot-em-ups and a bend towards having the hero go on a path of redemption--- whereas with much of the Snyder work I've seen--- particularly his "Sucker Punch" and "Watchmen"- It's really difficult to find the heart in Snyder's work. I see spots where he would LIKE to show the characters have a heart, but it almost always seems to fall flat. The two have (imo) a great visual style- and both have excesses in their movies- to a point of ridiculousness at times... but somehow Woo's stories have a core that redeems its excesses--- while with Snyder's often it just feels like the core is not there. Anyhow... At least with Woo you can point to the cultural differences between Hong Kong cinema and western cinema to explain away why certain things in his American movies don’t play as well or why he never really had the same kind of success in this part of the world. Different audiences and different cultural storytelling. With Snyder the guy might be in the wrong position in filmmaking. He could certainly stay away from actual script writing. Snyder’s strengths are on the technical and visual sides. When it comes to character and story I think he’s often oblivious to certain basic things. He tries to do to much and gets distracted and his films end up with certain issues. Woo unfiltered is a beautiful mess.... but somehow overall works when he was allowed to go 'full noir'--- but his headspace during the time of his most potent films usually had characters go to REALLY dark places that they would have to climb out of, and that journey was almost always was interesting. He talked of having a really religious upbringing and the most interesting of his films reflect a bit of that. BUT.... when he got a more mellow view of the world--- also- when he got to Hollywood and possibly had less control- (not sure which effect came first)- 'mild' Woo is the least interesting to downright boring and unsuccessful artistically imo. His strongest film in Hollywood was "Face/Off" though I don't think it's his best. "Mission Impossible II" and "Hard Target" was fun for his stylish flourishes and creative over-the-top action scenes, but otherwise I think most of his Hollywood filmography one can write off, sadly. Snyder and Michael Bay in my ideal world would be great cinematographers. Snyder seems like a nice guy, but I just don't get how he can interpret and translate some of the comics work the way he does. If there was more quality control over the script for MOS I might be totally ok with the Snyderverse- as is, I think his JL is the best of his comics work and Watchmen is great in parts. I'm glad for that but more glad that Kevin Feige is center stage of the Hollywood superhero universe. No matter what Feige is being paid, I think at this point, he's worth every penny. (Though I'm still annoyed he changed the Ancient One and bypassed the Starlin Captain Marvel and his casting for Shang-chi.... but I'm a nitpicker...)  |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 15, 2021 17:02:48 GMT -5
Metallo Nice observation spotting the resolution between Bauttista and his offspring in Army Of The Dead, perhaps mirroring Snyder's own desire to reconcile his comprehension regarding his daughter's tragic passing. IMHO-to be fair ,from a moralistic viewpoint........the one survivor amongst all the zombie assassins was Bauttista's daughter......who's premise for going into the zombie city was to save her friend.........all the other assassins/mercenaries were doing it to retrieve the money from that vault!.....so to have her succeed was a nice touch seeing as she had altruistic motives to begin with. Too bad that such a positive message gets diluted out by Snyder's propensity for a good ol' rock an' roll em' gore fest. And yeah....you are right, that tiger scene was well overblown.....and was a direct rip off from The Revenant when DiCaprio gets mauled by that CGI bear! @cam It's interesting you brought up the subject of Snyder being a potentially good cinematographer because apparently he helmed the cinematography for Army Of The Dead directly. And it's awful....full of out of focus backgrounds---my guess being that it was done not only to add extra emphasis to the foreground characters, but also to obscure some of the fakery of the CG backgrounds! I am hoping the Snyder cut is not saturated with those kinds of blurry scenes.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 16, 2021 11:18:56 GMT -5
Metallo Nice observation spotting the resolution between Bauttista and his offspring in Army Of The Dead, perhaps mirroring Snyder's own desire to reconcile his comprehension regarding his daughter's tragic passing. IMHO-to be fair ,from a moralistic viewpoint........the one survivor amongst all the zombie assassins was Bauttista's daughter......who's premise for going into the zombie city was to save her friend.........all the other assassins/mercenaries were doing it to retrieve the money from that vault!.....so to have her succeed was a nice touch seeing as she had altruistic motives to begin with. Too bad that such a positive message gets diluted out by Snyder's propensity for a good ol' rock an' roll em' gore fest. And yeah....you are right, that tiger scene was well overblown.....and was a direct rip off from The Revenant when DiCaprio gets mauled by that CGI bear! @cam It's interesting you brought up the subject of Snyder being a potentially good cinematographer because apparently he helmed the cinematography for Army Of The Dead directly. And it's awful....full of out of focus backgrounds---my guess being that it was done not only to add extra emphasis to the foreground characters, but also to obscure some of the fakery of the CG backgrounds! I am hoping the Snyder cut is not saturated with those kinds of blurry scenes. She didn’t succeed though. Her whole reason for going in was to get her friend out alive. Her friend apparently died in the helicopter crash and no one gave an F. Looks like Snyder didn’t either because it wasn’t even acknowledged on screen. She even ended up causing what her dad warned her about: getting everyone else killed. At best you could say she ended up with enough money to start a new life and get her friends kids out of the camps. The ending is is it loaded with problems. I still don’t understand how the one guy got out of the vault after the nuke got dropped. Did he find a crack to crawl through when the whole building collapsed? And of course they had to do the zombie tease. So predictable. Hate to ruin it for you but the Snyder cut does have those same kinds of out of focus scenes during parts of the movie. I’m guessing to hide all the green screen work. I found them distracting. Snyder does have a good eye but like JJ Abrams he becomes overly reliant on certain film making gimmicks. More examples of excess and needing to be reigned in. |
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