Lauren Schuler-Donner comments on RIchard Donner's passing

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2021 14:03:58 GMT -5 Metallo said:

That’s what I mean. Despite all the silliness injected into it the Metropolis battle in Superman II at least had some human stakes. Man of Steel conjured plenty of 9/11 style imagery but most of it was cgi destruction with no people suffering or at risk on screen until we got to that awkward forced in moment with the family almost getting burned up by Zod. At least Lester could juggle both and sprinkle it in throughout the set piece. Snyder didn’t even bother to do that.

The Jenny Jurwich situation was laughably ham fisted and more of a character building moment for Perry White so I don’t even count that. Plus that not where she stumbles around the obvious green screen soundstage and says “he saved us” was hilariously bad and creatively tone deaf.

I think I"m less critical of Snyder than Lester because at least Snyder wasn't destroying someone else's work. But in viewing and cringing so many times over Lester's undermining what was supposed to be the equivalent of the final fights in a Rocky movie- for Superman II,,,,, I'm hesitant to give Lester any credit. I did and do always mention how brilliant his Three Musketeers adaptation is, but I've said it before and will probably say it even more: he had zero respect for Donner and his work and even knew what was working (by keeping the Donner scenes he did)-

While Hollywood from what I've seen is cutthroat, if Ilya Salkind wanted to get a young up and coming director to take over but respect the original script and intents, I think he could have if he confessed himself that he was distracted by relationship issues during Superman II and didn't have as strong a hand as he should have had with Lester... particularly with the insertions and excesses of all the lame jokes into the Metro battle.

I may not care for a lot of Snyder's work- but, at least he's only messing with his own work.

As far as other directors not wanting to respect a previous director's work.... I dunno--- Speilberg tried to emulate Kurbrick for "A.I." (Even though I feel he failed with the too-happy ending--- but was willing to try. There was a director of "Psycho" that tried to do a shot for shot remake of that movie--- and there's Bryan Singer almost TOO reverential to Donner's work- so, there is precedence of one director respecting another director's work enough to try to stay within the previous director's creative outlines.

It's just a pity nobody told Lester to stick with the superior director's outlines. Ilya's fault, actually.

But with Superman III- that's a bit on Chris Reeve for having script and director approval.

[Metallo]

Jul 14, 2021 20:27:20 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think I’m less critical of Snyder than Lester because at least Snyder wasn't destroying someone else's work. But in viewing and cringing so many times over Lester's undermining what was supposed to be the equivalent of the final fights in a Rocky movie- for Superman II,,,,, I'm hesitant to give Lester any credit. I did and do always mention how brilliant his Three Musketeers adaptation is, but I've said it before and will probably say it even more: he had zero respect for Donner and his work and even knew what was working (by keeping the Donner scenes he did)-

While Hollywood from what I've seen is cutthroat, if Ilya Salkind wanted to get a young up and coming director to take over but respect the original script and intents, I think he could have if he confessed himself that he was distracted by relationship issues during Superman II and didn't have as strong a hand as he should have had with Lester... particularly with the insertions and excesses of all the lame jokes into the Metro battle.

I may not care for a lot of Snyder's work- but, at least he's only messing with his own work.

As far as other directors not wanting to respect a previous director's work.... I dunno--- Speilberg tried to emulate Kurbrick for "A.I." (Even though I feel he failed with the too-happy ending--- but was willing to try. There was a director of "Psycho" that tried to do a shot for shot remake of that movie--- and there's Bryan Singer almost TOO reverential to Donner's work- so, there is precedence of one director respecting another director's work enough to try to stay within the previous director's creative outlines.

It's just a pity nobody told Lester to stick with the superior director's outlines. Ilya's fault, actually.

But with Superman III- that's a bit on Chris Reeve for having script and director approval.

Snyder just destroyed many of the big firsts for DC in one fell swoop. First shared DC cinematic universe. First meeting between Batman Superman and Wonder Woman in live action. Wonder woman’s first big screen appearance. The first justice league movie. The adaptation of the death of Superman people had been waiting on for 25 years. All that is arguably worse than what Lester did. That’s not even mentioning the hatchet job he did on Watchmen—someone else’s work. STM will always be there even if Superman II’s original plan got derailed. And it’s still a good movie.

Snyder derailed an entire on screen universe right out of the gate. It never even had a chance. WBs all in on the multiverse now because they aren’t even interested in making the DCEU as originally envisioned work. Flash is the patchjob/eraser that just gives them a way to get out of that while making some money. Meanwhile you look at what Marvels done and that’s just salt in the wounds for a lot of DC fans.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 14, 2021 23:44:38 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 14, 2021 20:27:20 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think I’m less critical of Snyder than Lester because at least Snyder wasn't destroying someone else's work. But in viewing and cringing so many times over Lester's undermining what was supposed to be the equivalent of the final fights in a Rocky movie- for Superman II,,,,, I'm hesitant to give Lester any credit. I did and do always mention how brilliant his Three Musketeers adaptation is, but I've said it before and will probably say it even more: he had zero respect for Donner and his work and even knew what was working (by keeping the Donner scenes he did)-

While Hollywood from what I've seen is cutthroat, if Ilya Salkind wanted to get a young up and coming director to take over but respect the original script and intents, I think he could have if he confessed himself that he was distracted by relationship issues during Superman II and didn't have as strong a hand as he should have had with Lester... particularly with the insertions and excesses of all the lame jokes into the Metro battle.

I may not care for a lot of Snyder's work- but, at least he's only messing with his own work.

As far as other directors not wanting to respect a previous director's work.... I dunno--- Speilberg tried to emulate Kurbrick for "A.I." (Even though I feel he failed with the too-happy ending--- but was willing to try. There was a director of "Psycho" that tried to do a shot for shot remake of that movie--- and there's Bryan Singer almost TOO reverential to Donner's work- so, there is precedence of one director respecting another director's work enough to try to stay within the previous director's creative outlines.

It's just a pity nobody told Lester to stick with the superior director's outlines. Ilya's fault, actually.

But with Superman III- that's a bit on Chris Reeve for having script and director approval.

Snyder just destroyed many of the big firsts for DC in one fell swoop. First shared DC cinematic universe. First meeting between Batman Superman and Wonder Woman in live action. Wonder woman’s first big screen appearance. The first justice league movie. The adaptation of the death of Superman people had been waiting on for 25 years. All that is arguably worse than what Lester did. That’s not even mentioning the hatchet job he did on Watchmen—someone else’s work. STM will always be there even if Superman II’s original plan got derailed. And it’s still a good movie.

Snyder derailed an entire on screen universe right out of the gate. It never even had a chance. WBs all in on the multiverse now because they aren’t even interested in making the DCEU as originally envisioned work. Flash is the patchjob/eraser that just gives them a way to get out of that while making some money. Meanwhile you look at what Marvels done and that’s just salt in the wounds for a lot of DC fans.

I think I blame Snyder less than Lester- and less than WB, because WB had spun in circles over their properties for decades and only got embarrassed enough by Marvel Studios to produce more. Also, WB had Bryan Singer's continuation of the Donnerverse, but chose to just let it lapse.... With Watchmen, that thing had so many musical chairs with directors and was such an unknown material to the masses, if Snyder didn't make it with the clout he had at the time- I don't think we would have gotten ANY Watchmen at all that looked so close (even though the actual film missed the mark by quite a bit)- or any Watchmen movie, period.

Maybe Nolan is to blame, too, for not jumping in--- but then again--- his TDKR is an absolute mess to me and undermined a lot of great will TDK gave.... so having him step in is hit and miss in my book.... so...

Anyhow- WB is like a side event to me, while anything Marvel is the main event. Until DIsney buys DC, which I think isn't impossible at this point...

[atp]

Jul 14, 2021 23:44:38 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 14, 2021 20:27:20 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think I’m less critical of Snyder than Lester because at least Snyder wasn't destroying someone else's work. But in viewing and cringing so many times over Lester's undermining what was supposed to be the equivalent of the final fights in a Rocky movie- for Superman II,,,,, I'm hesitant to give Lester any credit. I did and do always mention how brilliant his Three Musketeers adaptation is, but I've said it before and will probably say it even more: he had zero respect for Donner and his work and even knew what was working (by keeping the Donner scenes he did)-

While Hollywood from what I've seen is cutthroat, if Ilya Salkind wanted to get a young up and coming director to take over but respect the original script and intents, I think he could have if he confessed himself that he was distracted by relationship issues during Superman II and didn't have as strong a hand as he should have had with Lester... particularly with the insertions and excesses of all the lame jokes into the Metro battle.

I may not care for a lot of Snyder's work- but, at least he's only messing with his own work.

As far as other directors not wanting to respect a previous director's work.... I dunno--- Speilberg tried to emulate Kurbrick for "A.I." (Even though I feel he failed with the too-happy ending--- but was willing to try. There was a director of "Psycho" that tried to do a shot for shot remake of that movie--- and there's Bryan Singer almost TOO reverential to Donner's work- so, there is precedence of one director respecting another director's work enough to try to stay within the previous director's creative outlines.

It's just a pity nobody told Lester to stick with the superior director's outlines. Ilya's fault, actually.

But with Superman III- that's a bit on Chris Reeve for having script and director approval.

Snyder just destroyed many of the big firsts for DC in one fell swoop. First shared DC cinematic universe. First meeting between Batman Superman and Wonder Woman in live action. Wonder woman’s first big screen appearance. The first justice league movie. The adaptation of the death of Superman people had been waiting on for 25 years. All that is arguably worse than what Lester did. That’s not even mentioning the hatchet job he did on Watchmen—someone else’s work. STM will always be there even if Superman II’s original plan got derailed. And it’s still a good movie.

Snyder derailed an entire on screen universe right out of the gate. It never even had a chance. WBs all in on the multiverse now because they aren’t even interested in making the DCEU as originally envisioned work. Flash is the patchjob/eraser that just gives them a way to get out of that while making some money. Meanwhile you look at what Marvels done and that’s just salt in the wounds for a lot of DC fans.

Snyder destroyed this forum too

[Metallo]

Jul 15, 2021 1:18:17 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 14, 2021 23:44:38 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Snyder just destroyed many of the big firsts for DC in one fell swoop. First shared DC cinematic universe. First meeting between Batman Superman and Wonder Woman in live action. Wonder woman’s first big screen appearance. The first justice league movie. The adaptation of the death of Superman people had been waiting on for 25 years. All that is arguably worse than what Lester did. That’s not even mentioning the hatchet job he did on Watchmen—someone else’s work. STM will always be there even if Superman II’s original plan got derailed. And it’s still a good movie.

Snyder derailed an entire on screen universe right out of the gate. It never even had a chance. WBs all in on the multiverse now because they aren’t even interested in making the DCEU as originally envisioned work. Flash is the patchjob/eraser that just gives them a way to get out of that while making some money. Meanwhile you look at what Marvels done and that’s just salt in the wounds for a lot of DC fans.

I think I blame Snyder less than Lester- and less than WB, because WB had spun in circles over their properties for decades and only got embarrassed enough by Marvel Studios to produce more. Also, WB had Bryan Singer's continuation of the Donnerverse, but chose to just let it lapse.... With Watchmen, that thing had so many musical chairs with directors and was such an unknown material to the masses, if Snyder didn't make it with the clout he had at the time- I don't think we would have gotten ANY Watchmen at all that looked so close (even though the actual film missed the mark by quite a bit)- or any Watchmen movie, period.

Maybe Nolan is to blame, too, for not jumping in--- but then again--- his TDKR is an absolute mess to me and undermined a lot of great will TDK gave.... so having him step in is hit and miss in my book.... so...

Anyhow- WB is like a side event to me, while anything Marvel is the main event. Until DIsney buys DC, which I think isn't impossible at this point...

Couldn’t you say the same thing about Lester though? The Salkinds hired Lester. Lester delivered the kind of films they wanted. Shouldn’t the Salkinds get more of the blame? They caused the split with Donner. They also made Supergirl which failed without any input from Lester. That one was all on them. They showed they could kill a franchise all on their own.

As for Snyder the most you can blame WB for is hiring him and letting him do whatever he wanted. Sure WB has messed up plenty but they gave the director the freedom he wanted to do what he wanted. We would have been happy if the Salkinds had done the same for Donner. WB didn’t make the movies Snyder did. And when he was criticized for legit reasons he just doubled down or BLAMED the fans. The latter certainly isn’t WB’s fault.

I’d still take Lester’s Superman II over any DC movie Zack Snyder has made. Yes even Justice League.

[Kamdan]

As far as other directors not wanting to respect a previous director's work.... I dunno--- Speilberg tried to emulate Kurbrick for "A.I." (Even though I feel he failed with the too-happy ending--- but was willing to try. There was a director of "Psycho" that tried to do a shot for shot remake of that movie--- and there's Bryan Singer almost TOO reverential to Donner's work- so, there is precedence of one director respecting another director's work enough to try to stay within the previous director's creative outlines.

All of those examples were made by the director’s own design. No one above them (typically a producer) told them to proceed with that. Spielberg failed at emulating Kubrick because he somehow got it in his head that he could write like him as well. There’s also no way Kubrick would allow such over lit and out of focus shots in his own films. Kubrick very infamously ordered the ending of The Shining removed and even commissioned another cut of it for the UK. Spielberg would never dream to do that.

Van Sant and Singer drove themselves into their failures with their attempts at emulating their predecessors without other factors that made them classics in the first place. Brian De Palma said it best about those who’ve remade his films, noting that they failed because they made the exact mistakes they tried to avoid when making the first one.

Donner and Lester shared none of the same sensibilities when it came to portraying these characters and Salkind was ignorant to the differing senses of humor between the two and that’s how we ended up with what we ended up with. They apparently thought they had triumphed with many critics saying II was better than I and that led them to think Lester could carry the rest of the series forth.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 15, 2021 17:01:39 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 15, 2021 1:18:17 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think I blame Snyder less than Lester- and less than WB, because WB had spun in circles over their properties for decades and only got embarrassed enough by Marvel Studios to produce more. Also, WB had Bryan Singer's continuation of the Donnerverse, but chose to just let it lapse.... With Watchmen, that thing had so many musical chairs with directors and was such an unknown material to the masses, if Snyder didn't make it with the clout he had at the time- I don't think we would have gotten ANY Watchmen at all that looked so close (even though the actual film missed the mark by quite a bit)- or any Watchmen movie, period.

Maybe Nolan is to blame, too, for not jumping in--- but then again--- his TDKR is an absolute mess to me and undermined a lot of great will TDK gave.... so having him step in is hit and miss in my book.... so...

Anyhow- WB is like a side event to me, while anything Marvel is the main event. Until DIsney buys DC, which I think isn't impossible at this point...

Couldn’t you say the same thing about Lester though? The Salkinds hired Lester. Lester delivered the kind of films they wanted. Shouldn’t the Salkinds get more of the blame? They caused the split with Donner. They also made Supergirl which failed without any input from Lester. That one was all on them. They showed they could kill a franchise all on their own.

As for Snyder the most you can blame WB for is hiring him and letting him do whatever he wanted. Sure WB has messed up plenty but they gave the director the freedom he wanted to do what he wanted. We would have been happy if the Salkinds had done the same for Donner. WB didn’t make the movies Snyder did. And when he was criticized for legit reasons he just doubled down or BLAMED the fans. The latter certainly isn’t WB’s fault.

I’d still take Lester’s Superman II over any DC movie Zack Snyder has made. Yes even Justice League.

I may have jumbled my post- as I tend to do, sorry about lack of clarity...

I think with the Salkinds- It's weird because on one hand--- if they didn't have the chutzpah to make a Superman movie- and on a big level- then there would be NO Superman movie for the longest time arguably because -as Tom Mankiewicz put it- WB could have made it anytime all this time... or any other DC superhero movie.

So- as much as I get irritated at the Salkinds for firing Donner- and also not keeping Lester in check- without the Salkinds, Donner would not have had the opportunity to create what I adore.

With Lester- It's the lack of respect he had for a fellow artist, and making the fans suffer for his ego that I blame him for. I never like to call it Lester's Superman II, but Donner-Lester's Superman II, if I have to go that far. The superior scenes and the framework and initial casting and designs were all Donner, so it feels wrong to me to call it Lester's, and I'm glad that some of the sources that list the movie, credit both of them now.

Lester shares the blame as does Ilya, though, for not protecting what was a better version and letting Lester do whatever he wanted.

Jeannot Swarc's Supergirl is not a good movie, but I don't get annoyed by that film nearly as much as Donner-Lester's SII because it was started on a blank canvas.

Snyder's MOS is annoying- especially Snyder's reactions to wanting to kill off Jimmy Olsen/etc.- but I have so little faith in WB's system that we've seen, that I was already kind of giving up hope once WB didn't do the sequel to SR and wanted to do a reboot with Snyder.

I loved Snyder's trailer for MOS- and was hoping it would be good..... but never had solid expecations that it would be.... so I think I was much less heartbroken and Snyder wasn't finishing off material that was already half made that I was in love with---

So... I'm not a fan of either Snyder nor Lester's work in general. I do admit really liking his version of the Justice League, but that's not nearly in the same level of like as STM nor Donner's SII material. Not in the same ballpark.

Lester's Three Musketeers is the one film that I will give Lester tons of credit for, as well as part of 4 Musketeers.... but I even was underwhelmed by the Beatles' movie, which is considered a classic and his best work by some.

With the Salkinds.... again.... I credit them for inititating the Superman movie series and hiring Donner and financing the first film and a half under DOnner- but it is also their fault for firing Donner as well. So, I almost feel like it's not too dissimilar to George Lucas making the first 2 1/2 Star Wars films which I adored, then making the prequels which I hated, I guess....

In any case---- the interviews and bits that come out just echo the whole consensus: it would have been better to have had a director who respected Donner's work to finish it. I would say based on the previous interviews Sydney Furie would have been right to finish it, with the proper budget. The budget slashed to nothing couldn't have done anything but make Superman IV a disaster going in, regardless of who directed it. I would be highly suprised if even Spielberg could have made a better film given the production budget for SIV, but maybe Furie would have made a fitting finish for SII that stayed more in line with the intents Donner and Mank set.

[Metallo]

Jul 15, 2021 23:38:36 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I may have jumbled my post- as I tend to do, sorry about lack of clarity...

I think with the Salkinds- It's weird because on one hand--- if they didn't have the chutzpah to make a Superman movie- and on a big level- then there would be NO Superman movie for the longest time arguably because -as Tom Mankiewicz put it- WB could have made it anytime all this time... or any other DC superhero movie.

So- as much as I get irritated at the Salkinds for firing Donner- and also not keeping Lester in check- without the Salkinds, Donner would not have had the opportunity to create what I adore.

With Lester- It's the lack of respect he had for a fellow artist, and making the fans suffer for his ego that I blame him for. I never like to call it Lester's Superman II, but Donner-Lester's Superman II, if I have to go that far. The superior scenes and the framework and initial casting and designs were all Donner, so it feels wrong to me to call it Lester's, and I'm glad that some of the sources that list the movie, credit both of them now.

Lester shares the blame as does Ilya, though, for not protecting what was a better version and letting Lester do whatever he wanted.

Jeannot Swarc's Supergirl is not a good movie, but I don't get annoyed by that film nearly as much as Donner-Lester's SII because it was started on a blank canvas.

Snyder's MOS is annoying- especially Snyder's reactions to wanting to kill off Jimmy Olsen/etc.- but I have so little faith in WB's system that we've seen, that I was already kind of giving up hope once WB didn't do the sequel to SR and wanted to do a reboot with Snyder.

I loved Snyder's trailer for MOS- and was hoping it would be good..... but never had solid expecations that it would be.... so I think I was much less heartbroken and Snyder wasn't finishing off material that was already half made that I was in love with---

So... I'm not a fan of either Snyder nor Lester's work in general. I do admit really liking his version of the Justice League, but that's not nearly in the same level of like as STM nor Donner's SII material. Not in the same ballpark.

Lester's Three Musketeers is the one film that I will give Lester tons of credit for, as well as part of 4 Musketeers.... but I even was underwhelmed by the Beatles' movie, which is considered a classic and his best work by some.

With the Salkinds.... again.... I credit them for inititating the Superman movie series and hiring Donner and financing the first film and a half under DOnner- but it is also their fault for firing Donner as well. So, I almost feel like it's not too dissimilar to George Lucas making the first 2 1/2 Star Wars films which I adored, then making the prequels which I hated, I guess....

In any case---- the interviews and bits that come out just echo the whole consensus: it would have been better to have had a director who respected Donner's work to finish it. I would say based on the previous interviews Sydney Furie would have been right to finish it, with the proper budget. The budget slashed to nothing couldn't have done anything but make Superman IV a disaster going in, regardless of who directed it. I would be highly suprised if even Spielberg could have made a better film given the production budget for SIV, but maybe Furie would have made a fitting finish for SII that stayed more in line with the intents Donner and Mank set.

I don’t necessarily think it was about a lack of respect for Donner but a lack of taking the material seriously and him doing what the Salkinds wanted. For him it was just a job. He was brought in to finish the film by them. If it wasn’t him it would have been someone else and it was the Salkinds that called the shots.

The Salkinds deserve credit for making the films happen but they deserve their share of the blame too. They kicked off the series but they also ran it into the ground badly enough that they felt they had to sell/lease the rights to Cannon.

The point I’m making with Supergirl is it shows what the Salkinds were capable of producing without Lester. It ended up being an even worse product than Superman II. It’s not as slapstick as Lester’s films but it suffers from some of the same problems.

For any director that respected Donners work to come in and finish Superman II they’d have to have gotten past The Salkinds and Pierre Spengler. That’s the problem. Anyone that wanted to do things the way Donner did would have gotten the same hassles he did. STM required the kind of care and attention to detail (particularly when it came to writing and directing)that the Salkinds weren’t interested in which is why the series declined.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 0:08:28 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 15, 2021 23:38:36 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I may have jumbled my post- as I tend to do, sorry about lack of clarity...

I think with the Salkinds- It's weird because on one hand--- if they didn't have the chutzpah to make a Superman movie- and on a big level- then there would be NO Superman movie for the longest time arguably because -as Tom Mankiewicz put it- WB could have made it anytime all this time... or any other DC superhero movie.

So- as much as I get irritated at the Salkinds for firing Donner- and also not keeping Lester in check- without the Salkinds, Donner would not have had the opportunity to create what I adore.

With Lester- It's the lack of respect he had for a fellow artist, and making the fans suffer for his ego that I blame him for. I never like to call it Lester's Superman II, but Donner-Lester's Superman II, if I have to go that far. The superior scenes and the framework and initial casting and designs were all Donner, so it feels wrong to me to call it Lester's, and I'm glad that some of the sources that list the movie, credit both of them now.

Lester shares the blame as does Ilya, though, for not protecting what was a better version and letting Lester do whatever he wanted.

Jeannot Swarc's Supergirl is not a good movie, but I don't get annoyed by that film nearly as much as Donner-Lester's SII because it was started on a blank canvas.

Snyder's MOS is annoying- especially Snyder's reactions to wanting to kill off Jimmy Olsen/etc.- but I have so little faith in WB's system that we've seen, that I was already kind of giving up hope once WB didn't do the sequel to SR and wanted to do a reboot with Snyder.

I loved Snyder's trailer for MOS- and was hoping it would be good..... but never had solid expecations that it would be.... so I think I was much less heartbroken and Snyder wasn't finishing off material that was already half made that I was in love with---

So... I'm not a fan of either Snyder nor Lester's work in general. I do admit really liking his version of the Justice League, but that's not nearly in the same level of like as STM nor Donner's SII material. Not in the same ballpark.

Lester's Three Musketeers is the one film that I will give Lester tons of credit for, as well as part of 4 Musketeers.... but I even was underwhelmed by the Beatles' movie, which is considered a classic and his best work by some.

With the Salkinds.... again.... I credit them for inititating the Superman movie series and hiring Donner and financing the first film and a half under DOnner- but it is also their fault for firing Donner as well. So, I almost feel like it's not too dissimilar to George Lucas making the first 2 1/2 Star Wars films which I adored, then making the prequels which I hated, I guess....

In any case---- the interviews and bits that come out just echo the whole consensus: it would have been better to have had a director who respected Donner's work to finish it. I would say based on the previous interviews Sydney Furie would have been right to finish it, with the proper budget. The budget slashed to nothing couldn't have done anything but make Superman IV a disaster going in, regardless of who directed it. I would be highly suprised if even Spielberg could have made a better film given the production budget for SIV, but maybe Furie would have made a fitting finish for SII that stayed more in line with the intents Donner and Mank set.

I don’t necessarily think it was about a lack of respect for Donner but a lack of taking the material seriously and him doing what the Salkinds wanted. For him it was just a job. He was brought in to finish the film by them. If it wasn’t him it would have been someone else and it was the Salkinds that called the shots.

The Salkinds deserve credit for making the films happen but they deserve their share of the blame too. They kicked off the series but they also ran it into the ground badly enough that they felt they had to sell/lease the rights to Cannon.

The point I’m making with Supergirl is it shows what the Salkinds were capable of producing without Lester. It ended up being an even worse product than Superman II. It’s not as slapstick as Lester’s films but it suffers from some of the same problems.

For any director that respected Donners work to come in and finish Superman II they’d have to have gotten past The Salkinds and Pierre Spengler. That’s the problem. Anyone that wanted to do things the way Donner did would have gotten the same hassles he did. STM required the kind of care and attention to detail (particularly when it came to writing and directing)that the Salkinds weren’t interested in which is why the series declined.

I'd read the original Supergirl script that contained Chris Reeve- it wasn't a great script, but it wasn't the mess that the theatrical was--- but in hearing that Reeve left in the middle of the production basically destroyed the possibility of the movie working without restarting from scratch--- it didn't seem like they wanted to pull the trigger on recasting Reeve, but the script I read also NEEDED Superman to make sense.... and the rewrite for the final film didn't really make any sense.

The Salkinds didn't seem to have a good sense for filmmaking but for financing and making things happen- but you're right, they were also responsible for letting the franchise crash and burn.... but in their case, they didn't seem to know any better- whereas Lester did seem to, but didn't care. I'm currently reading an article that has clips of many of the reviews of Superman II that wrongfully gives credit to Lester for the whole film that he never came out to refute--- particularly the scenes that Hackman was in for SII.... that Lester could have corrected or said something but didn't. Anyhow, his behavior for some reason on the whole still gets to me and pushes buttons, even if it wasn't me personally affected by it.

For SII- even if it had to be done on the cheaper scale- I would have been fine, so long as any director kept Donner's tone and the Mank script. It might not have been as polished as STM, which I accept- but the characters would not have been changed so much from the original script and even if it didn't have Donner's perfectionism, if they scaled down the fx and recast Brando to preserve the script, I think we would have had a MUCH better SII than what resulted from the Donner-Lester cut. But, the only hope I have now for any fixes comes from fans & better sfx tech in the future to get closer to that original script. Maybe someday...

[dejan]

I love both Donner and Lester and in some ways it’s like being the child torn between 2 divorcing parents.

But this particular kid(me!) is gonna side with Lester.

I think it is essential to underline the revisionism(in terms of it's production and audience reception) that Superman II has undergone over the last 40 years.



The first round of revisionism occurred in 1979 when Lester took the reigns.

But you could call this a kind of internal revisionism given the fact that none of the details regarding Lester's acquisition of the project(new footage, deletions, insertions, editing/re-editing and the junking of the majority of Donner's work) were meant to be divulged to the public.

And apart from the most discerning(and well informed) fans, the vast majority of the public /critics in 1981 received/perceived SII in that manner(rightly or wrongly) as one film , with one narrative and helmed by one director(Donner's work that would remain in Lester's SII would effectively be perceived as that of a 2nd unit director----which is not uncommon on big budget large scale productions----as an example, one has to remember that Peter Jackson did not direct the pivotal battle of Helm's Deep in The Two Towers---George Lucas directed parts of Return Of The Jedi ect ect ).

Quite frankly , having read each and every one of the contemporary critic's reviews(that are still available) that surfaced at the time of SII's initial release in the States and Europe.....the consensus was by and large unanimous........that SII was as good if not better than STM. That is a fact and cannot be denied or repudiated.

And on a personal level, having been there myself in May of 1981 to watch STM/SII back to back, with an adult audience, (I would see SII theatrically again in 1982) ........that was my contemporary reaction too....that SII was indeed better than STM. But as I said before, that does not mean that I(or the critics) regarded STM as being no good. On the contrary, I thought STM was incredibly special. It's just that I thought that SII was just that bit more special.



And with good reason......because at the time.....apart from Star Wars/Empire, there was nothing else that touched the STM/SII combo in the science fiction/fantasy realm. Alien, Star Trek The Motion Picture, The Black Hole, Moonraker and even Close Encounters were dour by comparison.

SII's direct science fiction/fantasy rivals(Outland, Clash Of The Titans, Dragon Slayer, Excalibur, America Werewolf In London, Escape From New York) were several rungs down in terms of scale and technical proficiency. The exception being Raiders.

So looking at it from the Salkind's perspective, it made perfect sense to retain Lester at that juncture(1981/82).

He had delivered the goods both commercially and critically. Fact.

As it turned out Henry Fonda's final film, On Golden Pond , would squeak past SII in terms of box office gross in the US for 81'. It's a fine film in it's own right but obviously does not compare with the giant scale of SII.



Of course SIII punctured the Lester balloon. But that was still a relative disappointment(compared to STM/SII).

SIII was still a unique piece of entertainment for 1983 with only the formidable Return Of The Jedi outshining it from a technical perspective.



Fast forward to 1989 when Donner starts to insinuate in the press that there is another version of SII which is superior to the theatrical.

And so begins the 2nd round of revisionism for SII.

By the late 90s /early 2000s , thanks to the advent of DVD, STM is given a digital facelift and presented with a pristine new transfer.

Lester's SII on the other hand , is given a bare bones DVD release, using a decades old, desaturated master that pales in comparison to the new STM transfer.



This unfair discrepancy accentuates the gap between STM and SII from a visual perspective......allowing Donner and Mank to now portray themselves as the only ones capable of doing the material true justice. Lester's SII is scorned in the DVD commentaries with even Kidder pitching in(in one of the docs) that humpty dumpty had fallen off and could not be put back together again.

Except Kidder was hardly an impartial observer, given the fact that she dated Mank during the production........she was hardly going to come down on the side of Lester in a post match analysis.

And so it continued , with Caped Wonder and other media outlets implying that Donner's SII was superior to what appeared theatrically......releasing seductive stills of Reeve finding the green crystal in the FOS.....and more photos of the fabled Daily Planet SII opening.

But all of these assertions of Donner's SII superiority were not being backed up by any free flowing footage.......just photographic stills.

Until 2006 when the Donner cut was finally released, in a sense polarizing the fan base between Lester's and Donner's version.



For Donner and Mank to insist that a bunch of screen tests(Niagra hotel) were somehow better than what appeared in the theatrical is beyond reproach.

As I said before , the fact that Donner claimed in 1989 that he had shot the Niagra footage for real, and that Lester had unjustly “cut it out” , for me borders on criminal.

No wonder Lester never bothered responding. He let his own footage do the talking.

And his Niagra hotel footage is hands down, in a different league(from the acting to the cinematography) to those Donner screen tests(as they should be).

As for the daily planet opening, which in 1989 , Donner insinuated was better than “that stupid opening at the Eiffel tower”……well everyone is entitled to their opinion.

And this is mine----the Eiffel tower sequence is head and shoulders above that daily planet opening in terms of editing, cinematography, special effects and acting. Too bad that for the best part of 15 years we had to take Donner’s word(and I did – a mistake I will not repeat) that his DP opening was better.

Which leads to a slam dunk in terms of why Spengler said what he said in 1981 :

“there was nothing wrong artistically with much of what we shot(under Donner)…..it’s just that it turned out differently(under Lester) and we are really happy with the way it turned out”.

So lets have a breakdown.

A superior opening under Lester. Check.

A superior Niagra Falls sequence under Lester. Check.

A superior substituting recital by the humble Susannah Yorke(under Lester) relative to the hubris laden and quite frankly , underwhelming Brando. Check.

Seamless integration of the Donner footage that was worth holding onto(moon jacking , scenes with Luthor ,White House and Daily Planet invasions, Don’s Diner, FOS climactic sequence). Check.

An elevation of the chemistry between Reeve and Kidder under Lester relative to Donner. Check.

Execution of an unprecedented sequence where superbeings tough it out on the streets of Metropolis. Check.

The only real potential deficit was with regards to the Villains attacking various world capitals.

Except as scripted , that particular sequence lacks any kind of real interaction between the villains and their victims. Just having Moscow and Tokyo already on fire has an air of disassociation to it. I admit, Non melting the Effiel tower could have been cool to see…….but it would have been a difficult effect to pull off photochemically.

Reducing that whole sequence down to East Houston may have lessened the scope……but it did increase the intimacy of the villain’s interactions with the locals.

And for 1981, it was still a pretty cool sequence ,seeing as there were hardly any other films out there , at the time ,that had that kind of action(a woman breaking a guy’s arm, effortlessly , Zod tossing the redneck through the wall and deflecting the fire onto the building, Ursa blowing the helicopter onto the barn and Non zapping that jeep.

So all told , Lester did not owe an apology to Donner.

In fact I would argue it’s the other way round but it’s all academic now anyways.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 2:07:00 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2021 0:08:28 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I don’t necessarily think it was about a lack of respect for Donner but a lack of taking the material seriously and him doing what the Salkinds wanted. For him it was just a job. He was brought in to finish the film by them. If it wasn’t him it would have been someone else and it was the Salkinds that called the shots.

The Salkinds deserve credit for making the films happen but they deserve their share of the blame too. They kicked off the series but they also ran it into the ground badly enough that they felt they had to sell/lease the rights to Cannon.

The point I’m making with Supergirl is it shows what the Salkinds were capable of producing without Lester. It ended up being an even worse product than Superman II. It’s not as slapstick as Lester’s films but it suffers from some of the same problems.

For any director that respected Donners work to come in and finish Superman II they’d have to have gotten past The Salkinds and Pierre Spengler. That’s the problem. Anyone that wanted to do things the way Donner did would have gotten the same hassles he did. STM required the kind of care and attention to detail (particularly when it came to writing and directing)that the Salkinds weren’t interested in which is why the series declined.

I'd read the original Supergirl script that contained Chris Reeve- it wasn't a great script, but it wasn't the mess that the theatrical was--- but in hearing that Reeve left in the middle of the production basically destroyed the possibility of the movie working without restarting from scratch--- it didn't seem like they wanted to pull the trigger on recasting Reeve, but the script I read also NEEDED Superman to make sense.... and the rewrite for the final film didn't really make any sense.

The Salkinds didn't seem to have a good sense for filmmaking but for financing and making things happen- but you're right, they were also responsible for letting the franchise crash and burn.... but in their case, they didn't seem to know any better- whereas Lester did seem to, but didn't care. I'm currently reading an article that has clips of many of the reviews of Superman II that wrongfully gives credit to Lester for the whole film that he never came out to refute--- particularly the scenes that Hackman was in for SII.... that Lester could have corrected or said something but didn't. Anyhow, his behavior for some reason on the whole still gets to me and pushes buttons, even if it wasn't me personally affected by it.

For SII- even if it had to be done on the cheaper scale- I would have been fine, so long as any director kept Donner's tone and the Mank script. It might not have been as polished as STM, which I accept- but the characters would not have been changed so much from the original script and even if it didn't have Donner's perfectionism, if they scaled down the fx and recast Brando to preserve the script, I think we would have had a MUCH better SII than what resulted from the Donner-Lester cut. But, the only hope I have now for any fixes comes from fans & better sfx tech in the future to get closer to that original script. Maybe someday...

I’d disagree with that. The excuse that the Salkinds didn’t know any better doesn’t hold water. They didn’t understand how to make these films themselves but they’d been in the film business long enough to hire good people that could. That’s what good producers do. They were smart enough to hire Donner after all. They just didn’t care about how things were going creatively because of hubris. Their biggest concern was loosing their meal ticket franchise. Their golden goose. That’s why they clung to it for as long as the could even after the film series sank. They saw what worked on STM but they were more concerned about making money. They spent plenty but they weren’t willing to put the effort in in all the right places.

Lester was the wrong guy from the start to continue what Donner was doing and probably to tackle any kind of superhero project in general. Hiring him was the Salkinds fault. Good filmmaker but he didn’t know how to approach these characters the right way because that wasn’t his style. He didn’t “get” the material. In that sense he didn’t know better. Sure you could say he shouldn’t have made the films but if it hadn’t been him the Salkinds would have hired someone else to do it their way.

Supergirl was doomed from the jump. The franchise had already been on a steady decline so the timing was all wrong anyway. Reeve or no Reeve the writing has some real problems. They had no idea how to really approach it from a character perspective when you look at scenes that didn’t involve Superman and wouldn’t have needed him anyway. Even Helen Slater has talked about that when it comes to what kind of story it probably should have been.

[atp]

Jul 16, 2021 10:49:34 GMT -5 dejan said:

The only real potential deficit was with regards to the Villains attacking various world capitals.

Except as scripted , that particular sequence lacks any kind of real interaction between the villains and their victims. Just having Moscow and Tokyo already on fire has an air of disassociation to it. I admit, Non melting the Effiel tower could have been cool to see…….but it would have been a difficult effect to pull off photochemically.

That's why it would have been done in CGI. (Please)

In seriousness, my memory is the same as yours. I was a child then, and it was definitely the mainstream view that S2 was the best part!

Even S3 wasn't considered to be bad. It was always in demand when it came out in the video rental stores. At the time it was still cutting edge with amazing special effects.

The only one I remember being disliked immediately on release was S4.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 10:49:34 GMT -5 dejan said:

I love both Donner and Lester and in some ways it’s like being the child torn between 2 divorcing parents.

But this particular kid(me!) is gonna side with Lester.
....

So all told , Lester did not owe an apology to Donner.

In fact I would argue it’s the other way round but it’s all academic now anyways.

It is a moot point, but with all due respect, will always disagree on this.

Everyone has different tastes. That's cool...

For my two cents:

#1: Donner made most all of the choices, except for the initial script, Brando and Hackman as getting cast (if I recall right based on what was read)
Lester didn't make a new painting from a blank canvas, things were already set up--- including the script and footage that only returned in the tv cut!
If he had to crap on it remove great dramatic scenes and add new stuff often with a bad wig-- (Metro jokes, softening and camping up of the villains, removing the dramatic balcony and outside FOS scenes) I'm annoyed that 99 percent of it wasn't on the equal level, let alone better given his advantages.

#2: The way the Donner footage was shot and edited- looked more expensive, was more expensive, very cinematic from multiple angles and insert shots and masterfully edited by Academy Award nominated Stuart Baird.

Lester was fine taking full credit for those scenes- if you subtracted those scenes and had scenes shot by Lester, it would have been arguably cheaper and less potent.
The Eiffel Tower sequence tries to mimic Donner- but it's not the helicopter sequence level nor the moon attack scene level imo.... the artistry isn't there imo to compete.

The dramatic scenes that Lester might have been there for has Lois in a bad wig for half of them that's hard to watch. But in Superman 3 it goes to a bad hair dye job that goes unnoticied or noticed but ignored by Lester.

Again, these are my opinions and not everyone agrese- all cool...

In any case- moot, moot point. At least Donner was appreciated for his work while he was alive and knew it- not all artists are.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 11:44:46 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 16, 2021 10:49:34 GMT -5 dejan said:

The only real potential deficit was with regards to the Villains attacking various world capitals.

Except as scripted , that particular sequence lacks any kind of real interaction between the villains and their victims. Just having Moscow and Tokyo already on fire has an air of disassociation to it. I admit, Non melting the Effiel tower could have been cool to see…….but it would have been a difficult effect to pull off photochemically.

That's why it would have been done in CGI. (Please)

In seriousness, my memory is the same as yours. I was a child then, and it was definitely the mainstream view that S2 was the best part!

Even S3 wasn't considered to be bad. It was always in demand when it came out in the video rental stores. At the time it was still cutting edge with amazing special effects.

The only one I remember being disliked immediately on release was S4.

For years a lot of people considered Superman II to be the better movie. It’s funny to me how so many people forget that (or didn’t know it) and how opinions slowly changed. That really started to happen after Chris Reeve’s accident and the rise of the internet. All the films were thrust back into the spotlight and reappraised after all the good will Christopher Reeve’s situation and the way he handled it generated.

The internet just gave us all forums to quickly exchange ideas and opinions on the films and share information. That’s how the story about the Superman/Superman II situation and ALL the problems between Donner and the Salkinds really became more accessible to the general public. Before that the fans read about it in magazines and maybe the odd mention on tv for some story. Thanks to the internet the whole story was out there for a much wider audience who didn’t follow this stuff as closely. Interest slowly grew because of fans online and Donner’s POV got out there.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 11:30:19 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Lester was the wrong guy from the start to continue what Donner was doing and probably to tackle any kind of superhero project in general. Hiring him was the Salkinds fault. Good filmmaker but he didn’t know how to approach these characters the right way because that wasn’t his style. He didn’t “get” the material. In that sense he didn’t know better. Sure you could say he shouldn’t have made the films but if it hadn’t been him the Salkinds would have hired someone else to do it their way.

Supergirl was doomed from the jump. The franchise had already been on a steady decline so the timing was all wrong anyway. Reeve or no Reeve the writing has some real problems. They had no idea how to really approach it from a character perspective when you look at scenes that didn’t involve Superman and wouldn’t have needed him anyway. Even Helen Slater has talked about that when it comes to what kind of story it probably should have been.

I think Lester would have been right for Shazam! or Plastic Man myself- where poking fun at the world and having a silly universe is part of the universe and pies in faces would have been perfectly welcome.

Creatively, the Salkinds strength seemed to be in making deals and promoting- but getting the money was key. And, it was Ilya's idea from the start.

What made it great to the end of the first one and whatever good was in SII was all Donner and the Salkinds' money.

Lester had no real respect for the character nor Donner nor STM- it was as you mentioned just a gig. Basically, Lester was just scrubbing a toilet in his eyes for money, so any poope he put in didn't matter.

According to the commentary (which I'm grateful for) Ilya almost sounds embarrassed by the slapstick that went on and on in the Metro battle scene and (if I remember right) apologizes for at least not trimming it down but that he was distracted by a relationship at the time. If Lester had just been a gun for hire and just finished the script as is, even cheaper, bad wigs and all, I would have been less irritated.

At least Snyder seems to care about a portion of Superman lore. Lester, not at all. It's his right, but I would have rather he just have finished the house as intended rather than rewriting the blueprints to make an insane house with only a few nice moments. (Weird autocorrect original post that changed what I said to "hunky saucy"- weird!!! I had to edit)

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 12:03:12 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2021 11:30:19 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Lester was the wrong guy from the start to continue what Donner was doing and probably to tackle any kind of superhero project in general. Hiring him was the Salkinds fault. Good filmmaker but he didn’t know how to approach these characters the right way because that wasn’t his style. He didn’t “get” the material. In that sense he didn’t know better. Sure you could say he shouldn’t have made the films but if it hadn’t been him the Salkinds would have hired someone else to do it their way.

Supergirl was doomed from the jump. The franchise had already been on a steady decline so the timing was all wrong anyway. Reeve or no Reeve the writing has some real problems. They had no idea how to really approach it from a character perspective when you look at scenes that didn’t involve Superman and wouldn’t have needed him anyway. Even Helen Slater has talked about that when it comes to what kind of story it probably should have been.

I think Lester would have been right for Shazam! or Plastic Man myself- where poking fun at the world and having a silly universe is part of the universe and pies in faces would have been perfectly welcome.

Creatively, the Salkinds strength seemed to be in making deals and promoting- but getting the money was key. And, it was Ilya's idea from the start.

What made it great to the end of the first one and whatever good was in SII was all Donner and the Salkinds' money.

Lester had no real respect for the character nor Donner nor STM- it was as you mentioned just a gig. Basically, Lester was just scrubbing a toilet in his eyes for money, so any poope he put in didn't matter.

According to the commentary (which I'm grateful for) Ilya almost sounds embarrassed by the slapstick that went on and on in the Metro battle scene and (if I remember right) apologizes for at least not trimming it down but that he was distracted by a relationship at the time. If Lester had just been a gun for hire and just finished the script as is, even cheaper, bad wigs and all, I would have been less irritated.

At least Snyder seems to care about a portion of Superman lore. Lester, not at all. It's his right, but I would have rather he just have finished the house as intended rather than rewriting the blueprints to make an insane house with only a few nice moments. (Weird autocorrect original post that changed what I said to "hunky saucy"- weird!!! I had to edit)

I don’t think Lester would have been right for Shazam or Plastic Man. You’re speaking in terms of humor and light heartedness. The problem is bigger than that. I don’t think Lester really got the medium of comics or superheroes or cared for any of the material. There’s more to these kinds of movies than just understanding how to pull off the humor. There’s understanding the basic appeal, the kind of storytelling, and how to translate that to the screen.

I don’t think Ilya was embarrassed by the slapstick. I think he’s been embarrassed by the audiences response to it over time as well as the questions asked over that. If people had universally loved that stuff I don’t think it would have bothered him at all. He gets defensive when he thinks someone is being critical.

Lester sort of was a hired gun but he had too much of a style as a filmmaker to be JUST that. Again when it comes to hiring him that’s on the Salkinds. If they wanted someone who would just point and shoot a flat movie they should have hired someone like that. But they needed someone with skill AND experience AND someone they trusted and knew they could work with.

Snyder doesn’t really care about Superman or his lore. He just presented what he did very seriously. He’s spoken with almost contempt about Superman. He felt he was a character that needed to be presented a certain way so he could be “cool”. Snyder’s a guy who looks down his nose at most of Superman’s material. It’s obvious. Lester can be a thoughtful filmmaker concerned about character. Snyder’s deepest analysis of the material is looking at the comic book panels and admiring the action but he doesn’t understand anything beyond the superficial. It’s why his DC movies are such a mess and why he has no understanding of Superman. He and Goyer see these characters as something to be “improved”… not simply reinterpreted.

[crazy_asian_man]

So lets have a breakdown.

A superior opening under Lester. Check.

A superior Niagra Falls sequence under Lester. Check.

A superior substituting recital by the humble Susannah Yorke(under Lester) relative to the hubris laden and quite frankly , underwhelming Brando. Check.

Seamless integration of the Donner footage that was worth holding onto(moon jacking , scenes with Luthor ,White House and Daily Planet invasions, Don’s Diner, FOS climactic sequence). Check.

An elevation of the chemistry between Reeve and Kidder under Lester relative to Donner. Check.

Execution of an unprecedented sequence where superbeings tough it out on the streets of Metropolis. Check.

Well...
I don't agree with any of those as far as being superior, but it is all subjective.

I don't think they're HORRIBLE, but lesser. The bizzarro powers in the FOS was not a plus imo.
The chemistry I think was more the actors growing into the characters than anything Lester did, wiht the two years off, but that's up to debate and speculation.

I think lately I've been more touchy and grouchy with Donner's passing regarding Lester- apologies if posts are coming off a little testy- I think we're both just passionate about the films, even if we see the results differently. Always glad to hear different views from my own it, though. Just grouchy lately, testier than usual. Apologies.

[dejan]

@cam 

That's cool regarding differences of opinion and I totally respect yours.

But there is something else going on here and it involved Donner.

From the late 80's onwards, it's almost like Donner was trying to insinuate that Lester's SII was universally despised(by the cast and crew, the fans and the critics) from the get go way back in 1980/81.
Which is patently false.

Of course late 70s/early 80s audiences did not have the benefit of the ubiquity of home video to truly analyse a flick.....shot by shot.

In a cinema you cannot fast forward , rewind  or pause.

You basically have to take it all in on the fly and memorise it as best you can. Sometimes your imagination fills in the blanks and amplifies the quality of the material above and beyond it's intrinsic quality.

Lester was counting on that factor to deceive the audience into accepting his SII version in 81'.

In terms of Lester disparaging Donner's vision......I take issue with that.

The  Donner versions of STM and SII had structural differences , thematically and aesthetically.

Lester's SII  really follows on from the final 3rd of STM in terms of aesthetics .A hypothetical Donner SII would have done the same.

Last time I checked , it was Donner who had Luthor step on Otis's hand whilst climbing the ladder........and it was Donner who had Otis pull the 2 fingers behind Luthor's head shadow......which I personally find more immature and campy(given the dramatic context of the scene---trying to escape from prison)......than an ice cream blowing in someone's face.

And there are many fans/ critics out there now, who accuse STM of imbedded campiness thanks to all those Luthor-Otis(and Teshmacher) interactions.
For the record I am not one of them----I love that stuff-I always did and always will.

As for the epic scale of STM relative to SII.
SII is huge and was designed for the big screen in mind.
In the last couple of years , having acquired a state of the art projection system(JVC NX9 4K-with 8K e-shift) I can really appreciate the meticulous nature of Lester's efforts in terms of detail and realism(given the technology of the time) . He did the same with Robin and Marian, The Muskateers and Royal Flash.

Watching SII on a 40 inch TV is not going to help elucidate that fine detail that can only be discerned(and appreciated) on a bigger screen.

 

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 12:40:54 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I don’t think Lester would have been right for Shazam or Plastic Man. You’re speaking in terms of humor and light heartedness. The problem is bigger than that. I don’t think Lester really got the medium of comics or superheroes or cared for any of the material. There’s more to these kinds of movies than just understanding how to pull off the humor. There’s understanding the basic appeal, the kind of storytelling, and how to translate that to the screen.

I don’t think Ilya was embarrassed by the slapstick. I think he’s been embarrassed by the audiences response to it over time as well as the questions asked over that. If people had universally loved that stuff I don’t think it would have bothered him at all. He gets defensive when he thinks someone is being critical.

Lester sort of was a hired gun but he had too much of a style as a filmmaker to be JUST that. Again when it comes to hiring him that’s on the Salkinds. If they wanted someone who would just point and shoot a flat movie they should have hired someone like that. But they needed someone with skill AND experience AND someone they trusted and knew they could work with.

Snyder doesn’t really care about Superman or his lore. He just presented what he did very seriously. He’s spoken with almost contempt about Superman. He felt he was a character that needed to be presented a certain way so he could be “cool”. Snyder’s a guy who looks down his nose at most of Superman’s material. It’s obvious. Lester can be a thoughtful filmmaker concerned about character. Snyder’s deepest analysis of the material is looking at the comic book panels and admiring the action but he doesn’t understand anything beyond the superficial. It’s why his DC movies are such a mess and why he has no understanding of Superman. He and Goyer see these characters as something to be “improved”… not simply reinterpreted.

I do think Lester is capable... when it's the right material for him. Three Musketeers is by the far the best version imo. (The sequel was good enough, but following the first sequel, not so good...) The way I view Plastic Man - I actually think the slapstick in the beginning of Superman III would have been a perfect fit for a Plastic Man movie. If his heart was in it, and the tone matched up- it could be good, I think.

You could be dead on with Ilya more embarrassed by audience response. If there were a test screening prior to release, I wonder if he would have gone to the cutting room and delayed it- but if he was (as he said) unprofessional and distracted by a relationship at the time- it might not have mattered, though.

It's hard to figure out Snyder and his mindset, especially after watching his incredibly weird and bad "Sucker Punch" and how he pushed back against sponsored product placement for Watchmen to be faithful to the comic visually- which had to be a lot of dough for Watchmen. I think he is passionate, but..... I think his strength would be art direction or cinematography. But, I still have to say especially after watching "WW84" that I do enjoy his cut of Justice League to a degree. I feel his aesthetics are just misguided.

[dejan]

Jul 16, 2021 12:55:35 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

So lets have a breakdown.

A superior opening under Lester. Check.

A superior Niagra Falls sequence under Lester. Check.

A superior substituting recital by the humble Susannah Yorke(under Lester) relative to the hubris laden and quite frankly , underwhelming Brando. Check.

Seamless integration of the Donner footage that was worth holding onto(moon jacking , scenes with Luthor ,White House and Daily Planet invasions, Don’s Diner, FOS climactic sequence). Check.

An elevation of the chemistry between Reeve and Kidder under Lester relative to Donner. Check.

Execution of an unprecedented sequence where superbeings tough it out on the streets of Metropolis. Check.

Well...
I don't agree with any of those as far as being superior, but it is all subjective.

I don't think they're HORRIBLE, but lesser. The bizzarro powers in the FOS was not a plus imo.
The chemistry I think was more the actors growing into the characters than anything Lester did, wiht the two years off, but that's up to debate and speculation.

I think lately I've been more touchy and grouchy with Donner's passing regarding Lester- apologies if posts are coming off a little testy- I think we're both just passionate about the films, even if we see the results differently. Always glad to hear different views from my own it, though. Just grouchy lately, testier than usual. Apologies.

No worries cam regarding Donner's passing and the feelings of hurt.
I am probably a bit the same when it comes to defining Lester's contribution-lol.

The only reason why I credit Lester with Reeve and Kidder's display in SII is that in SIV they were pretty awful!
A pathetic script did not help. Neither did the poopty production values.
But Furie simply did not have the skill to elucidate fine performances from the 2 despite the fact that both actors had the benefit of 10 years of working with each other by that point. 

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 13:04:47 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2021 12:40:54 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I don’t think Lester would have been right for Shazam or Plastic Man. You’re speaking in terms of humor and light heartedness. The problem is bigger than that. I don’t think Lester really got the medium of comics or superheroes or cared for any of the material. There’s more to these kinds of movies than just understanding how to pull off the humor. There’s understanding the basic appeal, the kind of storytelling, and how to translate that to the screen.

I don’t think Ilya was embarrassed by the slapstick. I think he’s been embarrassed by the audiences response to it over time as well as the questions asked over that. If people had universally loved that stuff I don’t think it would have bothered him at all. He gets defensive when he thinks someone is being critical.

Lester sort of was a hired gun but he had too much of a style as a filmmaker to be JUST that. Again when it comes to hiring him that’s on the Salkinds. If they wanted someone who would just point and shoot a flat movie they should have hired someone like that. But they needed someone with skill AND experience AND someone they trusted and knew they could work with.

Snyder doesn’t really care about Superman or his lore. He just presented what he did very seriously. He’s spoken with almost contempt about Superman. He felt he was a character that needed to be presented a certain way so he could be “cool”. Snyder’s a guy who looks down his nose at most of Superman’s material. It’s obvious. Lester can be a thoughtful filmmaker concerned about character. Snyder’s deepest analysis of the material is looking at the comic book panels and admiring the action but he doesn’t understand anything beyond the superficial. It’s why his DC movies are such a mess and why he has no understanding of Superman. He and Goyer see these characters as something to be “improved”… not simply reinterpreted.

I do think Lester is capable... when it's the right material for him. Three Musketeers is by the far the best version imo. (The sequel was good enough, but following the first sequel, not so good...) The way I view Plastic Man - I actually think the slapstick in the beginning of Superman III would have been a perfect fit for a Plastic Man movie. If his heart was in it, and the tone matched up- it could be good, I think.

You could be dead on with Ilya more embarrassed by audience response. If there were a test screening prior to release, I wonder if he would have gone to the cutting room and delayed it- but if he was (as he said) unprofessional and distracted by a relationship at the time- it might not have mattered, though.

It's hard to figure out Snyder and his mindset, especially after watching his incredibly weird and bad "Sucker Punch" and how he pushed back against sponsored product placement for Watchmen to be faithful to the comic visually- which had to be a lot of dough for Watchmen. I think he is passionate, but..... I think his strength would be art direction or cinematography. But, I still have to say especially after watching "WW84" that I do enjoy his cut of Justice League to a degree. I feel his aesthetics are just misguided.

Lester’s a good director. Or was. Him doing a more comedic superhero movie isn’t just a question of tone but wether he understands the appeal of the concepts and material. I think he just didn’t get it and his Superman movies were lacking something because of that. Most of the directors of the best superhero movies understand the material on some level and how to approach it even if they didn’t grow up reading comics. I think the very nature of comic book stories and why they work is foreign to Lester but he was talented enough to make something out of it even if it didn’t appeal to him. He made some good contributions but he was on a film series that was already established.

With Salkind it’s not just his embarrassment over the audiences reposes but their changing responses and changing opinions over time. People enjoyed Superman II a lot back then. Superman III less so but the view on both those films has diminished over time. Now Salkind is much more on defense with more die hard fans who know more of what went on behind the scenes.

Snyder’s not hard to figure out especially when you look at all his movies and their flaws and start to see what really appeals to him. Snyder loves the spectacle and the epic scope of these stories but doesn’t understand them on a fundamental level. Or on an emotional level. It’s why his superhero movies are always emotionally flawed and stunted. Snyder can appreciate the iconic larger than life presentation but not the smaller more personal side of it. It’s like a 13 year old boys idea of what makes good superhero films. It’s that level of understanding instead of the same kind of understanding as the best writers who created the source material.

Snyder’s films are “adult” in their imagery but not mature in their depth and how that depth is explored. There’s an immature side to the man as a filmmaker that seems to find that kind of stuff boring…like any dude bro teenager would. His passion is for the technical side of things and creating that grand imagery. It’s why he’s a strong visualist but not a strong storyteller.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 13:01:19 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam 

That's cool regarding differences of opinion and I totally respect yours.

But there is something else going on here and it involved Donner.

From the late 80's onwards, it's almost like Donner was trying to insinuate that Lester's SII was universally despised(by the cast and crew, the fans and the critics) from the get go way back in 1980/81.
Which is patently false.

Of course late 70s/early 80s audiences did not have the benefit of the ubiquity of home video to truly analyse a flick.....shot by shot.

In a cinema you cannot fast forward , rewind  or pause.

You basically have to take it all in on the fly and memorise it as best you can. Sometimes your imagination fills in the blanks and amplifies the quality of the material above and beyond it's intrinsic quality.

Lester was counting on that factor to deceive the audience into accepting his SII version in 81'.

In terms of Lester disparaging Donner's vision......I take issue with that.

The  Donner versions of STM and SII had structural differences , thematically and aesthetically.

Lester's SII  really follows on from the final 3rd of STM in terms of aesthetics .A hypothetical Donner SII would have done the same.

Last time I checked , it was Donner who had Luthor step on Otis's hand whilst climbing the ladder........and it was Donner who had Otis pull the 2 fingers behind Luthor's head shadow......which I personally find more immature and campy(given the dramatic context of the scene---trying to escape from prison)......than an ice cream blowing in someone's face.

And there are many fans/ critics out there now, who accuse STM of imbedded campiness thanks to all those Luthor-Otis(and Teshmacher) interactions.
For the record I am not one of them----I love that stuff-I always did and always will.

As for the epic scale of STM relative to SII.
SII is huge and was designed for the big screen in mind.
In the last couple of years , having acquired a state of the art projection system(JVC NX9 4K-with 8K e-shift) I can really appreciate the meticulous nature of Lester's efforts in terms of detail and realism(given the technology of the time) . He did the same with Robin and Marian, The Muskateers and Royal Flash.

Watching SII on a 40 inch TV is not going to help elucidate that fine detail that can only be discerned(and appreciated) on a bigger screen.

 

That’s the thing isn’t it? Some people think Donners version of II is better on every level. I don’t agree with that. To be fair to Donner it’s not what he would have done in 1979/1980. It’s what Thau did in the early 2000’s. Even if Donner gave notes on that we’ll never really know what a proper Donner Superman II would have looked like. That’s why I don’t think it’s totally fair to judge either existing version of the film against the other.

But as it is there are certain things, certain creative choices, and some acting that is BETTER in Lester’s version IMO. Seems like some people dismiss the possibility simply because it’s not Donners stuff. Like you said even the cast wasn’t always impartial which is understandable. Funny how history repeats itself since we’ve seen the same things happen with the two versions of Justice League when they are compared even though the Superman II situation was very different from Justice League’s.

As for the issues of humor being used between the two directors I don’t think people have a problem with humor in the films but the kind of humor and the way it was approached. Donner’s humor was organic and believable. You could realistically see the stuff Otis does or Luthor does to Otis in every day life. Some of it was ridiculous and went too far but most of the time it fit within the films. Lester’s humor was far more absurd and far more widespread. Stuff like the ice cream flying in peoples faces and the guy talking on the phone while the booth was blown over just came off as too far. There was more of that in Superman III with the opening sequence. It just wasn’t believable.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2021 13:11:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 16, 2021 12:55:35 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Well...
I don't agree with any of those as far as being superior, but it is all subjective.

I don't think they're HORRIBLE, but lesser. The bizzarro powers in the FOS was not a plus imo.
The chemistry I think was more the actors growing into the characters than anything Lester did, wiht the two years off, but that's up to debate and speculation.

I think lately I've been more touchy and grouchy with Donner's passing regarding Lester- apologies if posts are coming off a little testy- I think we're both just passionate about the films, even if we see the results differently. Always glad to hear different views from my own it, though. Just grouchy lately, testier than usual. Apologies.

No worries cam regarding Donner's passing and the feelings of hurt.
I am probably a bit the same when it comes to defining Lester's contribution-lol.

The only reason why I credit Lester with Reeve and Kidder's display in SII is that in SIV they were pretty awful!
A pathetic script did not help. Neither did the poopty production values.
But Furie simply did not have the skill to elucidate fine performances from the 2 despite the fact that both actors had the benefit of 10 years of working with each other by that point. 

Furie didn’t have Donner or Lester’s talent there but to be fair to him the entire production was an amateur hour show from start to finish at a fundamental level because of the lack of time, money, and leadership from Golan and globus. Look at what Furie had to work with and what he had working against him. I don’t think most directors could have gotten much better with all the problems.

Even with a weak script when you hear Jon Cryers stories of tearing entire pages out of scenes or cutting whole sequences before they’d been filmed it must have been confusing for everyone there actually making the movie.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 13:11:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jul 16, 2021 12:55:35 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Well...
I don't agree with any of those as far as being superior, but it is all subjective.

I don't think they're HORRIBLE, but lesser. The bizzarro powers in the FOS was not a plus imo.
The chemistry I think was more the actors growing into the characters than anything Lester did, wiht the two years off, but that's up to debate and speculation.

I think lately I've been more touchy and grouchy with Donner's passing regarding Lester- apologies if posts are coming off a little testy- I think we're both just passionate about the films, even if we see the results differently. Always glad to hear different views from my own it, though. Just grouchy lately, testier than usual. Apologies.

No worries cam regarding Donner's passing and the feelings of hurt.
I am probably a bit the same when it comes to defining Lester's contribution-lol.

The only reason why I credit Lester with Reeve and Kidder's display in SII is that in SIV they were pretty awful!
A pathetic script did not help. Neither did the poopty production values.
But Furie simply did not have the skill to elucidate fine performances from the 2 despite the fact that both actors had the benefit of 10 years of working with each other by that point. 

Thanks Dejan- I thought that the original script - if done right- could have been much closer in level to the first Superman.... but part of the issue with the lost chemistry between Kidder and Reeve was... age. There always was a difference in age between Reeve and Kidder, but it looked too pronounced by this time. With all due respect to poor Margot- I feel like her acting like the old peppy Lois in ther mid 20s like STM and SII - just wasn't a good fit. The tone of the script to me was like a fairy tale, but needed everything to work- the budget and enough time to shape it properly especially with whatever curveballs got in the way. Reeve suprisingly still looked great, but I don't think McClure and Kidder looked young enough to play them the same way as before, but tried anyways. Jimmy didn't have much of a role, so it wasn't as noteiceable, and there are a couple of bits that work ok, but for the key scenes I felt Kidder didn't quite work this time out becauee of her age, sadly.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2021 14:41:09 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 16, 2021 13:11:53 GMT -5 dejan said:

No worries cam regarding Donner's passing and the feelings of hurt.
I am probably a bit the same when it comes to defining Lester's contribution-lol.

The only reason why I credit Lester with Reeve and Kidder's display in SII is that in SIV they were pretty awful!
A pathetic script did not help. Neither did the poopty production values.
But Furie simply did not have the skill to elucidate fine performances from the 2 despite the fact that both actors had the benefit of 10 years of working with each other by that point. 

Furie didn’t have Donner or Lester’s talent there but to be fair to him the entire production was an amateur hour show from start to finish at a fundamental level because of the lack of time, money, and leadership from Golan and globus. Look at what Furie had to work with and what he had working against him. I don’t think most directors could have gotten much better with all the problems.

Even with a weak script when you hear Jon Cryers stories of tearing entire pages out of scenes or cutting whole sequences before they’d been filmed it must have been confusing for everyone there actually making the movie.

Absolutely- I don't think Donner could have gotten much out of all the obstacles thrown at SIV, even if he did get agree to come in to do SIV when Reeve asked, also!