Superman Returns article / bit-

[crazy_asian_man]

www.fortressofsolitude.co.za/superman-returns-the-underrated-man-of-steel-movie/

[Metallo]

The biggest things to hurt Superman Returns were lack of action and too long a runtime and if there had been more action more frequently that would have helped with the latter. Pacing was an issue. If those things had been addressed somehow before release I think it would have done better and the other problems with the film would have been ignored or at least downplayed by viewers. A lot of good can make the bad parts less glaring.

Superman Returns had the disadvantage of coming along before the superhero movie genre saw its biggest boom period. The “modern” genre was still finding its place, feeling things out, and growing. Man of Steel had the advantage of being part of a shared universe to keep it relevant and part of the fandom conversations. If MOS had been a one off not connected to a larger franchise like that DCEU it would be brought up about aa much as Superman Returns. The shared universe has kept MOS (and Cavill’s Superman) relevant despite it really not doing much better than Routh and SR.

As for SR’s place in the original franchises continuity I think the multiverse has given them the perfect way to articulate that in the way they either couldn’t or wouldn’t in 2006. Its clearly taking its lead from STM and SII but there are still too many inconsistencies for it to be a true sequel to those in anything beyond spirit. In my opinion SR is set in its own universe (not an offshoot of the Reeve universe) where events similar to those of STM and SII happened but not exactly the same. It’s the same way we’ve got JK Simmons playing two different J Jonah Jameson’s in different Spider-Man film franchises. Different universes but with a lot of similarities.

[Kamdan]

I hope one day this movie will get an overhauled 4K release. It’s a truly ugly looking movie especially with the tone they were trying to achieve.

[crazy_asian_man]

Superman Returns I love for many of the reasons many seem to hate or dismiss it:

It took the most difficult route: Replicate the spirit of the original Donner/Reeve approach, get a new viewer to care about all these characters in record time, then move that storyline forward all in one chunk--- but, unfortunately, with very little pizzazz or spectacle in terms of Superheroics or action to- as you mentioned- be digestible easier for the mainstream.

Singer was never really much of an action director. The joy doesn't seem to be there in it when it is there- even in the best X-men films. Sometimes it's totally fine and serviceable, but oftentimes it's because the rest of the better films have their own momentum and/or is just a strong story.

Donner seemed to enjoy love stories AND action.

Donner- with Lethal Weapon- showed that he was a little kid with the emotions, but also with the bloodless action scenes tinged with humor and 2-dimensional criminals that were enjoyable because it was a bit transparent as to what he was doing. He wasn't going for gritty reality (though different from his later films like 16 Blocks).

Singer fell for the love story aspect with the triangle and Superman's love of his family.... but the feeling really was more 'Passion of the Christ' or 'Logan' but it was a tone that I think many felt didn't fit- much like how a number of fans (not me, I liked it though, because of what JJ Abrams stuck Johnson with- but that's another post)- hated "The Last Jedi" for not really embracing the tone of a Star Wars movie, but making this weird dark film on its own terms.

[Metallo]

Aug 31, 2021 22:08:52 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Superman Returns I love for many of the reasons many seem to hate or dismiss it:

It took the most difficult route: Replicate the spirit of the original Donner/Reeve approach, get a new viewer to care about all these characters in record time, then move that storyline forward all in one chunk--- but, unfortunately, with very little pizzazz or spectacle in terms of Superheroics or action to- as you mentioned- be digestible easier for the mainstream.

Singer was never really much of an action director. The joy doesn't seem to be there in it when it is there- even in the best X-men films. Sometimes it's totally fine and serviceable, but oftentimes it's because the rest of the better films have their own momentum and/or is just a strong story.

Donner seemed to enjoy love stories AND action.

Donner- with Lethal Weapon- showed that he was a little kid with the emotions, but also with the bloodless action scenes tinged with humor and 2-dimensional criminals that were enjoyable because it was a bit transparent as to what he was doing. He wasn't going for gritty reality (though different from his later films like 16 Blocks).

Singer fell for the love story aspect with the triangle and Superman's love of his family.... but the feeling really was more 'Passion of the Christ' or 'Logan' but it was a tone that I think many felt didn't fit- much like how a number of fans (not me, I liked it though, because of what JJ Abrams stuck Johnson with- but that's another post)- hated "The Last Jedi" for not really embracing the tone of a Star Wars movie, but making this weird dark film on its own terms.

Some of the hardcore fanboys don’t like change or risk. I’m a hardcore fanboy but I appreciated the changes and risks Superman Returns and The Last Jedi took. IMO both were in the spirit of their respective franchises. To me it’s all about the execution and how well one pulls off whatever story they’re telling. SR and TLJ both dropped the ball in some areas but there’s more bad than good for me.

The movies that came after them missed the mark far more IMO by trying to placate certain vocal members of the fanbases and only made the problems worse. Singer was on the right track with SR but got lost in the weeds. MOS on the other hand took the wrong path by learning all the wrong lessons from the failures of SR and the triumphs of The Dark Knight.

The DCEU is still recovering from the hangover of the Zack Snyder era and we still aren’t sure when they’ll be totally over it. WB gave the Snyderbots the version of JL they’ve been begging for for years and instead of being grateful some of them spit venom right in WB’s face and are still trying their feeble attempts to sabotage WB’s non Snyder DC plans going forward.


Getting in bed with Snyder is the worst mistake they’ve ever made when you look at their long term goals for DC Films.

[crazy_asian_man]

Good points!

I love most of Last Jedi- mostly from taking where it was at with the car crash that I felt "A Force Awakens" was and did some pretty cool things with what he was stuck with.... though I also thought some of the things with the Finn story and the casino planet was a bit off-track. The main thing I liked was the Luke Skywalker arc. Originally I feared that Mark Hamill's part was going to be a small cameo (which it was in Rise of Skywalker)- but I thought it was a good finish considering where Abrams boxed him in storywise from Force Awakens.

[Metallo]

In terms of acting I though Hamill did some of his best work in Last Jedi. The people that say Luke was out character in that movie have this idealized memory in their head or have on rose colored glasses. This is the same Luke that fell for it and almost struck down the emperor in ROTJ just like Palp wanted. He did eventually throw down his saber but it was after a lot of mistakes. Luke never was a “proper” traditionally trained and experienced Jedi and it showed. He did things his way. The interesting thing about Luke was that he was flawed and relatable and not some Jedi ideal. That’s what got them almost wiped out in the first place. In the end Luke always did the right thing AFTER some trial and error. Just like in Last Jedi.

You’re right about TFA too. People blame Johnson but Abrams put Luke in the position he was in in the first place. I had no problem with it but it is what it is.

[crazy_asian_man]

if kathleen kennedy greenlit things then yechnically the mess that was a for e awakens was her fault- but jj abrams made a total mess of it imo

[Metallo]

There’s blame to go around but the buck stops with Kennedy. But even for a one film deal Abrams simply wasn’t up to the job.

[Kamdan]

Keri Russell would have been an excellent and more appropriate choice for Lois Lane. So what if Bosworth was great as Sandra Dee? How was that comparable to Lois Lane?

[crazy_asian_man]

Sept 20, 2021 18:08:58 GMT -5 Metallo said:

In terms of acting I though Hamill did some of his best work in Last Jedi. The people that say Luke was out character in that movie have this idealized memory in their head or have on rose colored glasses. This is the same Luke that fell for it and almost struck down the emperor in ROTJ just like Palp wanted. He did eventually throw down his saber but it was after a lot of mistakes. Luke never was a “proper” traditionally trained and experienced Jedi and it showed. He did things his way. The interesting thing about Luke was that he was flawed and relatable and not some Jedi ideal. That’s what got them almost wiped out in the first place. In the end Luke always did the right thing AFTER some trial and error. Just like in Last Jedi.

You’re right about TFA too. People blame Johnson but Abrams put Luke in the position he was in in the first place. I had no problem with it but it is what it is.

I thought given the situation Johnson was handed, Johnson called out Abrams on some ridiculous choices in A Force Awakens through his dialogue - and did a pretty good job given the characters he was given. (though I really didn't care for the General Holdo character or casting)-

Most of my mind focused on: How much Luke and Leia are we going to get? And I was pleased that they gave Hamill some meaty material given the situation. Though... yeah, it could have/ should have been more in line with Star Wars classic choices- the 'gray morality zone' injected into the story seems a bit too weighty for this kind of franchise... but then again, even the father/son soap with Luke and Vader I never really liked. (And wasn't the original plan in the first place, despite Lucas' constant changing narratives on his original master plan).

[crazy_asian_man]

Oct 9, 2021 7:16:06 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Keri Russell would have been an excellent and more appropriate choice for Lois Lane. So what if Bosworth was great as Sandra Dee? How was that comparable to Lois Lane?

She might be a fantastic human being.... but.... never really connected with Keri Russell as a performer.
Not even in her own show, let alone being considered for Lois Lane.