Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 6, 2022 8:37:29 GMT -5
Glass was crap. Unbreakable didn't need a sequel I don’t think it needed one but there was something appealing about seeing how things turned out almost 20 years later. The twist in Split was brilliant. I don’t think anyone saw it coming and when it was revealed it all made sense and recontextualized the entire film. But Unbreakable worked perfectly as a stand alone. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Feb 6, 2022 16:36:26 GMT -5
Glass was crap. Unbreakable didn't need a sequel I don’t think it needed one but there was something appealing about seeing how things turned out almost 20 years later. The twist in Split was brilliant. I don’t think anyone saw it coming and when it was revealed it all made sense and recontextualized the entire film. But Unbreakable worked perfectly as a stand alone. Yes, the twist in Split was great. But I don't consider Split to be the sequel to Unbreakable. More like a shared universe thing. Glass was the sequel, and was so disappointing. It was just awful from start to finish |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 6, 2022 16:49:58 GMT -5
I don’t think it needed one but there was something appealing about seeing how things turned out almost 20 years later. The twist in Split was brilliant. I don’t think anyone saw it coming and when it was revealed it all made sense and recontextualized the entire film. But Unbreakable worked perfectly as a stand alone. Yes, the twist in Split was great. But I don't consider Split to be the sequel to Unbreakable. More like a shared universe thing. Glass was the sequel, and was so disappointing. It was just awful from start to finish True. Split is more of a spin-off or part of the same franchise not a true direct sequel but once you examine it after the twist you look at the film in an entirely different light. The Beast is the very kind of powerful secondary villain that was described in Unbreakable. He mirrors David Dunn. Split was the great setup for Glass. It’s just that Glass was poorly executed because M Night Shyamalan lost his focus and got wrapped up in his usual bs way of storytelling. I didn’t mind not doing the expected thing or the big comic book battle but he made it overly complicated and convoluted when it should have been more like Unbreakable and Split. He should have kept it simple. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 6, 2022 17:01:37 GMT -5
I'd reboot Superman and forget about the disgrace that was MoS. I wouldn't mind Routh in the role, except for the fact that it would be confusing. A total newcomer and unknown is needed to play Superman. If The Flash does end up being a soft reboot for the DCEU and Keaton’s Batman and his history is swapped in for Affleck’s I wouldn’t mind them doing the same for Superman. Just swap out Cavill's Superman for Routh’s. It’s not nearly as damaged as Cavills and it solves the problem of origin and keeps it from being more confusing. If you want the origin for Rouths DCEU Superman go watch SR since it glosses over it well enough. Either use him as Superman in other movies or maybe even make a solo Superman film after a while. Then jump right into the SR2 we never got back in 2009. It’s all a little bizarre to me but if they can make it work for Keaton then they can make it work for Routh. The DCEU is such a clusterf*ck right now it doesn’t matter if they merge a few franchises and earths together. It’s not like it’s ever going to be perfectly fixable if they kept Cavill and Affleck. It would be cool to hear the John Williams and Danny Elfman themes in the DCEU again but this time it would be with proper versions of the characters.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 8, 2022 4:10:23 GMT -5
There's SO much love for Unbreakable... but I'm of the few that really hated it. Part of it might have been Bruce WIllis' casting in it, as I felt he was totally wrong for it- but the direction as well didn't make me believe. I always liked Willis’s casting because he works so well as an everyman thrust into extraordinary situations…like a lot of characters before they became superheroes. He also has the look of an old style golden age superhero. He’s not the matinee idol chiseled body type or the pretty boy but he looks like a macho guy. He was more of the Joe Shuster athletic football player type than the John Byrne bodybuilder type we’ve seen from the 80s on. He’s got the kind of face Alex Ross draws: older guys with some lines on their face rather than the more youthful look heroes have now. Well.... I know a TON of people that love that movie. I liked the beginning of it, but I didn't quite buy the transition to superhero film in the writing and direction- and the casting to me didn't help with the shifted situation. I do like Willis in some roles, and I was fine with him in the beginning of the movie- but I totally believed in Sixth Sense and Signs by M. Night--- but this is one that I fell out of belief when things started to turn. I'm glad it worked for a majority of folks and I know this is a favorite of a few of my friends- but to me it wasn't just because it followed Sixth Sense. I just didn't buy the transition in the story and even if it had been a different actor, I don't think I would have been able to go with the change in the story. I love superhero films when done well, even if it's faithful or not. But it just didn't work for me. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 8, 2022 4:13:00 GMT -5
I'd reboot Superman and forget about the disgrace that was MoS. I wouldn't mind Routh in the role, except for the fact that it would be confusing. A total newcomer and unknown is needed to play Superman. If The Flash does end up being a soft reboot for the DCEU and Keaton’s Batman and his history is swapped in for Affleck’s I wouldn’t mind them doing the same for Superman. Just swap out Cavill's Superman for Routh’s. It’s not nearly as damaged as Cavills and it solves the problem of origin and keeps it from being more confusing. If you want the origin for Rouths DCEU Superman go watch SR since it glosses over it well enough. Either use him as Superman in other movies or maybe even make a solo Superman film after a while. Then jump right into the SR2 we never got back in 2009. It’s all a little bizarre to me but if they can make it work for Keaton then they can make it work for Routh. The DCEU is such a clusterf*ck right now it doesn’t matter if they merge a few franchises and earths together. It’s not like it’s ever going to be perfectly fixable if they kept Cavill and Affleck. It would be cool to here the John Williams and Danny Elfman themes in the DCEU again but this time it would be with proper versions of the characters. I kind of wish that Flashpoint came out before No Way Home. I'm looking forward to Flashpoint, but there's so mch gold in No Way Home that I don't anticipate that there's any way Flashpoint can come close to matching it.... But... If they have Routh and Bale in it, it could score a LOT of points with me...  |
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atp
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Post by atp on Feb 8, 2022 5:27:17 GMT -5
I honestly don't think there is a better alternative to Routh out there.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 8, 2022 9:17:31 GMT -5
I honestly don't think there is a better alternative to Routh out there. I think out of the known guys who could step into the role right now long term he is the best choice to go with. Cavills damaged goods and I’m tired of seeing him get chance after chance. Hoechlin should stick with the tv show. Welling seems to loathe the very idea of playing Superman. Time has been kind to Routh and his portrayal despite the flaws of the film. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 8, 2022 9:19:33 GMT -5
If The Flash does end up being a soft reboot for the DCEU and Keaton’s Batman and his history is swapped in for Affleck’s I wouldn’t mind them doing the same for Superman. Just swap out Cavill's Superman for Routh’s. It’s not nearly as damaged as Cavills and it solves the problem of origin and keeps it from being more confusing. If you want the origin for Rouths DCEU Superman go watch SR since it glosses over it well enough. Either use him as Superman in other movies or maybe even make a solo Superman film after a while. Then jump right into the SR2 we never got back in 2009. It’s all a little bizarre to me but if they can make it work for Keaton then they can make it work for Routh. The DCEU is such a clusterf*ck right now it doesn’t matter if they merge a few franchises and earths together. It’s not like it’s ever going to be perfectly fixable if they kept Cavill and Affleck. It would be cool to here the John Williams and Danny Elfman themes in the DCEU again but this time it would be with proper versions of the characters. I kind of wish that Flashpoint came out before No Way Home. I'm looking forward to Flashpoint, but there's so mch gold in No Way Home that I don't anticipate that there's any way Flashpoint can come close to matching it.... But... If they have Routh and Bale in it, it could score a LOT of points with me... The Flash(point) movie could be great but I have far less faith in WB to pull this off and I don’t like Miller as much as I like Holland. NWH has certainly taken the wind out of the Flash movies sails. It’s not as novel an idea anymore. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Feb 8, 2022 10:54:49 GMT -5
I honestly don't think there is a better alternative to Routh out there. I think out of the known guys who could step into the role right now long term he is the best choice to go with. Cavills damaged goods and I’m tired of seeing him get chance after chance. Hoechlin should stick with the tv show. Welling seems to loathe the very idea of playing Superman. Time has been kind to Routh and his portrayal despite the flaws of the film. Yeah Cavill is damaged and just wrong for the part. When he was first cast, I really thought he looked great in the early photos. But I was mistaken. Maybe there's an unknown guy out there ready to nail the role like Reeve did. But until that happens, I think Routh is the best bet for the big screen Superman. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 10, 2022 13:13:08 GMT -5
I pick Cavill over Hoechlin, but Routh is best choice- maybe moreso now with him older.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 10, 2022 20:07:22 GMT -5
I think out of the known guys who could step into the role right now long term he is the best choice to go with. Cavills damaged goods and I’m tired of seeing him get chance after chance. Hoechlin should stick with the tv show. Welling seems to loathe the very idea of playing Superman. Time has been kind to Routh and his portrayal despite the flaws of the film. Yeah Cavill is damaged and just wrong for the part. When he was first cast, I really thought he looked great in the early photos. But I was mistaken. Maybe there's an unknown guy out there ready to nail the role like Reeve did. But until that happens, I think Routh is the best bet for the big screen Superman. Cavill looks great but that’s all he has going for him. He talks a good game but I don’t think he really understands the character as much as he says. Then again that could be Snyder’s influence. Problem is he’s too tied to that. Unless he changes everything about his Superman it’s never going to catch on and at that point you may as well cast a new actor. Even with better writing and directing the guy is still as stiff as a board and lacking any charisma on camera. I think people are too snowed over by how good he looks. Seems like that’s always the biggest argument for why he’s perfect as Superman. Good looking men are a dime a dozen on Hollywood though. |
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Post by Metallo on Feb 10, 2022 20:09:57 GMT -5
I pick Cavill over Hoechlin, but Routh is best choice- maybe moreso now with him older. I always thought Hoechlin was better from his first appearance as Superman but now? After a few seasons of his own show he blows Cavill away to me. Hoechlins only gotten better too. Granted the writing for him has gotten better but he really seems to get the character on a fundamental level that Cavill doesn’t. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 10, 2022 21:39:35 GMT -5
I pick Cavill over Hoechlin, but Routh is best choice- maybe moreso now with him older. I always thought Hoechlin was better from his first appearance as Superman but now? After a few seasons of his own show he blows Cavill away to me. Hoechlins only gotten better too. Granted the writing for him has gotten better but he really seems to get the character on a fundamental level that Cavill doesn’t. Well, I did get season 1 in the mail. So once I see it, I may have a different opinion on Hoechlin, but on the surface, the unshaven look KILLS me.... it's like Welling refusing to wear the costume. Superman's not cool enough that they have to make him 'darker'? Hopefully I love enough of the whole that I get past it. Will give it a chance, for sure. (I might as well, I spent the money already! ) |
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Post by Metallo on Feb 11, 2022 9:38:57 GMT -5
I always thought Hoechlin was better from his first appearance as Superman but now? After a few seasons of his own show he blows Cavill away to me. Hoechlins only gotten better too. Granted the writing for him has gotten better but he really seems to get the character on a fundamental level that Cavill doesn’t. Well, I did get season 1 in the mail. So once I see it, I may have a different opinion on Hoechlin, but on the surface, the unshaven look KILLS me.... it's like Welling refusing to wear the costume. Superman's not cool enough that they have to make him 'darker'? Hopefully I love enough of the whole that I get past it. Will give it a chance, for sure. (I might as well, I spent the money already! ) This is a closer to middle aged Superman though. And we’ve seen him with a beard in other stuff before so it’s not about making him “darker” or anything like that. I think the stubble is there to show that he he’s not only older but got more on his plate now. Clarks also not an office guy anymore but a farmer in Smallville so now that he’s home he’s going to want to look the part of farmer who’s working hard outside. They aren’t always as concerned about looking clean cut. Notice that in flashbacks or daily planet scenes he’s clean shaven. It’s definitely a creative choice since Hoechlin was always clean shaven before. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 19, 2022 12:59:08 GMT -5
Metallo ,ATP and CAM Fine points all. Just wanted to reiterate that whilst STM is essentially an uplifting flick ,at least compared to it's 1978 rivals (Deer Hunter,Coming Home, Days Of Heaven and King Of The Gypsies) , there are some moments which are pretty hard hitting-destruction of Krypton , Pa Kent's demise and Lois's death. And let's not forget the poor ol' cop who gets thrown under the train outside Luthor's lair! So , in that sense, some of those "hard edged" elements of STM are definitely cut from the same cloth as the other aformentioned flicks from 78'. But whilst the other flicks were uniform in their tone-although Deer Hunter has a fairly ebuliant first part(DeNiro and chums enjoying the wedding party before being sent out to Nam) before descending into emotional and physical tragedy, STM has that 3 part structure , each of which is totally distinct(from the cinematography to the pacing to the acting). MoS , despite being an origin story, still felt totally uniform from the first frame to the last. Even Raimi's 2002 Spidey had that uniformity despite also being a quasi origin flick(ditto for Garfield's and Holland's Spidey 1s). Holland's origin was a bit of a cheat seeing as it was covered(allbeit briefly) in Civil War. The First Avenger,Thor 1,Iron Man 1,Black Panther 1 ect are also structured evenly throughout their respective flicks. Nolan's Batman Begins, despite the flashbacks and flashfowards(lol), is stylistically equilibrated from beginning to end. Personally can't speak for Ant Man 1 , The Eternals , Shang Shi or Black Widow as I have still not seen them. My best guess though, is that they too have uniform structures. So STM is truly unique when it comes to that 3 section compartimentalisation. But it could only be done once. It was and can never be duplicated. Now that's truly capturing lightning in a bottle!. Superman’s origin story being split into three parts is right from the comics. Even the first episode of George Reeves series used the distinct three part structure of Krypton/Smallville/Metropolis which STM basically copied and expanded for a film. Superman the animated series used the same format for its premier movie. Batmans origin would be similar but we’ve never really seen it done super close to the comics. Batman Begins came closest. Not nearly as much time is spent with the Wayne’s and Bruce’s upbringing and most adaptations gloss over his overseas training entirely which would be the second “act.” Even Bruce Wayne often has three distinct personas like Clark Kent. It’s the whole idea of a trinity of sorts. That's very true regarding the 3 part structure as it pertains to that original George Reeves pilot episode(and also the comics). Ofcourse , it also applies to MOS and to a lesser extent , SR. But it's not so much the 3 different locations that are the intrinsic and unique attributes of the storytelling of Supe's origins , but rather the way in which it was told , specifically in STM. Putting aside the location differentials of Krypton and Smallville , the first 45 mins of STM features eloquent and somber dialogue , deliberately slow moving optical dissolves(i.e close up of Ma Kent's face as she is looking through the grated window and the beautiful panoramic transition to her walking through the wheat fields to meet Clark) and even Johny William's music, which is operatic and melancholic in the first half , and heroic and fast beating in the 2nd. It's almost like 2 entirely different movies. But at the same time, both halves complement the other , amplifying the impact of the flick as a whole. And to this day, at least within the context of superhero movies(and even broader cinema in general) , that quality remains unique to STM. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 19, 2022 13:41:20 GMT -5
Well, I did get season 1 in the mail. So once I see it, I may have a different opinion on Hoechlin, but on the surface, the unshaven look KILLS me.... it's like Welling refusing to wear the costume. Superman's not cool enough that they have to make him 'darker'? Hopefully I love enough of the whole that I get past it. Will give it a chance, for sure. (I might as well, I spent the money already! ) This is a closer to middle aged Superman though. And we’ve seen him with a beard in other stuff before so it’s not about making him “darker” or anything like that. I think the stubble is there to show that he he’s not only older but got more on his plate now. Clarks also not an office guy anymore but a farmer in Smallville so now that he’s home he’s going to want to look the part of farmer who’s working hard outside. They aren’t always as concerned about looking clean cut. Notice that in flashbacks or daily planet scenes he’s clean shaven. It’s definitely a creative choice since Hoechlin was always clean shaven before. Well....I guess it's better than Lois getting a beard, but... I think at the core my gut feels like Hoechlin is wrong for the part- but I'll get used to it. Beard, too, hopefully... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 19, 2022 13:46:17 GMT -5
Superman’s origin story being split into three parts is right from the comics. Even the first episode of George Reeves series used the distinct three part structure of Krypton/Smallville/Metropolis which STM basically copied and expanded for a film. Superman the animated series used the same format for its premier movie. Batmans origin would be similar but we’ve never really seen it done super close to the comics. Batman Begins came closest. Not nearly as much time is spent with the Wayne’s and Bruce’s upbringing and most adaptations gloss over his overseas training entirely which would be the second “act.” Even Bruce Wayne often has three distinct personas like Clark Kent. It’s the whole idea of a trinity of sorts. That's very true regarding the 3 part structure as it pertains to that original George Reeves pilot episode(and also the comics). Ofcourse , it also applies to MOS and to a lesser extent , SR. But it's not so much the 3 different locations that are the intrinsic and unique attributes of the storytelling of Supe's origins , but rather the way in which it was told , specifically in STM. Putting aside the location differentials of Krypton and Smallville , the first 45 mins of STM features eloquent and somber dialogue , deliberately slow moving optical dissolves(i.e close up of Ma Kent's face as she is looking through the grated window and the beautiful panoramic transition to her walking through the wheat fields to meet Clark) and even Johny William's music, which is operatic and melancholic in the first half , and heroic and fast beating in the 2nd. It's almost like 2 entirely different movies. But at the same time, both halves complement the other , amplifying the impact of the flick as a whole. And to this day, at least within the context of superhero movies(and even broader cinema in general) , that quality remains unique to STM. I have to admit on first view, I was disappointed that the Daily Planet/Lex material was so lighthearted. I enjoyed the serious and heartfelt tones of Krypton & Smallville--- but then again, it goes back there with part II after dipping into humor and light. Part of me wishes there was a way to have seen a version (with same cast and all) with things purely serious with the Daily Planet and Lex- but what made the Donner parts of SII amazing is that mixing the light and serious (the DP attack is a great example of that) with a sense of truthfulness - made the DP attack even more scary and funny at the same time, whereas with Lester's imbalancing things on the clownish side- just schizophrenic. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Feb 19, 2022 15:29:11 GMT -5
That's very true regarding the 3 part structure as it pertains to that original George Reeves pilot episode(and also the comics). Ofcourse , it also applies to MOS and to a lesser extent , SR. But it's not so much the 3 different locations that are the intrinsic and unique attributes of the storytelling of Supe's origins , but rather the way in which it was told , specifically in STM. Putting aside the location differentials of Krypton and Smallville , the first 45 mins of STM features eloquent and somber dialogue , deliberately slow moving optical dissolves(i.e close up of Ma Kent's face as she is looking through the grated window and the beautiful panoramic transition to her walking through the wheat fields to meet Clark) and even Johny William's music, which is operatic and melancholic in the first half , and heroic and fast beating in the 2nd. It's almost like 2 entirely different movies. But at the same time, both halves complement the other , amplifying the impact of the flick as a whole. And to this day, at least within the context of superhero movies(and even broader cinema in general) , that quality remains unique to STM. I have to admit on first view, I was disappointed that the Daily Planet/Lex material was so lighthearted. I enjoyed the serious and heartfelt tones of Krypton & Smallville--- but then again, it goes back there with part II after dipping into humor and light. Part of me wishes there was a way to have seen a version (with same cast and all) with things purely serious with the Daily Planet and Lex- but what made the Donner parts of SII amazing is that mixing the light and serious (the DP attack is a great example of that) with a sense of truthfulness - made the DP attack even more scary and funny at the same time, whereas with Lester's imbalancing things on the saucy plate of hunky manish side- just schizophrenic. Like you said in another thread- Unsworth's framing and depth of field was practically perfect. So even if the tone(in terms of acting and editing) shifted in that final third of the flick (Lex stepping on Otis's hand in the library ect ect)- the shot compositions and production values compensated for that lighheartedness-maintaining that sense of epicness. Regarding SII: A hypothetical 1979 Donner version would have continued straight off the bat with the rapid fire editing and comic banter that we got in the final third of STM. As you say, the juxtaposition of the buffooning about of Otis/Lex would have contrasted with the "Terminator" like presense of the 3 villains and unfortunately we can only speculate as to how that would have played out in it's entirety. We actually got an inkling of Donner's ability to mix tragedy/horror with "comic book" levity in the very final part of STM with Lois's death , which I found on my first viewing, to contrast quite heavily with the comic book tone of that overall final 3rd of the flick. But in terms of tone, Lois's death actually brought that final coda of STM back in line with the initial tragedies of Krypton's destruction and Pa Kent's demise........but with a final spurt of glorious optimism with Lois's subsequent resurrection(no matter the illogical fallacies of time travel!).........STM ended on an uplifting and winning note. And that is another part of it's magic IMHO! |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 19, 2022 16:22:46 GMT -5
Superman’s origin story being split into three parts is right from the comics. Even the first episode of George Reeves series used the distinct three part structure of Krypton/Smallville/Metropolis which STM basically copied and expanded for a film. Superman the animated series used the same format for its premier movie. Batmans origin would be similar but we’ve never really seen it done super close to the comics. Batman Begins came closest. Not nearly as much time is spent with the Wayne’s and Bruce’s upbringing and most adaptations gloss over his overseas training entirely which would be the second “act.” Even Bruce Wayne often has three distinct personas like Clark Kent. It’s the whole idea of a trinity of sorts. That's very true regarding the 3 part structure as it pertains to that original George Reeves pilot episode(and also the comics). Ofcourse , it also applies to MOS and to a lesser extent , SR. But it's not so much the 3 different locations that are the intrinsic and unique attributes of the storytelling of Supe's origins , but rather the way in which it was told , specifically in STM. Putting aside the location differentials of Krypton and Smallville , the first 45 mins of STM features eloquent and somber dialogue , deliberately slow moving optical dissolves(i.e close up of Ma Kent's face as she is looking through the grated window and the beautiful panoramic transition to her walking through the wheat fields to meet Clark) and even Johny William's music, which is operatic and melancholic in the first half , and heroic and fast beating in the 2nd. It's almost like 2 entirely different movies. But at the same time, both halves complement the other , amplifying the impact of the flick as a whole. And to this day, at least within the context of superhero movies(and even broader cinema in general) , that quality remains unique to STM. Each of the three parts is supposed to represent a certain aspect of Superman as well as offer a different feel or style. Superman on earth was really the first adaptation to do that. You could argue the serials but the structure of a serial is totally different from a single episode or film. What Donner did was translate that same approach to an at the time modern more cinematic work. MOS can’t be credited with doing that because of the structure of the story but also because it took a completely different approach to all three portions of Superman’s origin story. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Feb 19, 2022 16:25:37 GMT -5
This is a closer to middle aged Superman though. And we’ve seen him with a beard in other stuff before so it’s not about making him “darker” or anything like that. I think the stubble is there to show that he he’s not only older but got more on his plate now. Clarks also not an office guy anymore but a farmer in Smallville so now that he’s home he’s going to want to look the part of farmer who’s working hard outside. They aren’t always as concerned about looking clean cut. Notice that in flashbacks or daily planet scenes he’s clean shaven. It’s definitely a creative choice since Hoechlin was always clean shaven before. Well....I guess it's better than Lois getting a beard, but... I think at the core my gut feels like Hoechlin is wrong for the part- but I'll get used to it. Beard, too, hopefully... If he’s wrong for you it is what it is but when looking at the overall results with a larger audience he seems to be working. He’s six years into his run as Superman. Longer and more well received than a lot of his peers. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 22, 2022 18:43:33 GMT -5
Well....I guess it's better than Lois getting a beard, but... I think at the core my gut feels like Hoechlin is wrong for the part- but I'll get used to it. Beard, too, hopefully... If he’s wrong for you it is what it is but when looking at the overall results with a larger audience he seems to be working. He’s six years into his run as Superman. Longer and more well received than a lot of his peers. Again, my opinion could change once I watch the series... But for right now.... I don't think it'll happen, but would love it if Routh appears in Flashpoint= but I think Hoechlin might have a better probability than Routh. But, I hope to be happily suprised! |
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