Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 27, 2022 23:05:36 GMT -5
To me, you just described the initial characterization of Zod under Donner’s direction. The whole “pompous narcissist” angle didn’t come to into play until Lester came in. Not so. Saying Jor-El and his heirs would bow down before him was pretty pompous and narcissistic and was all Donner. That was pure anger and ego from Zod. If it wasn’t and was just about revenge he’d just want Joe-El dead. He always wanted people to grovel before him. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 27, 2022 23:45:55 GMT -5
To me, you just described the initial characterization of Zod under Donner’s direction. The whole “pompous narcissist” angle didn’t come to into play until Lester came in. Not so. Saying Jor-El and his heirs would bow down before him was pretty pompous and narcissistic and was all Donner. That was pure anger and ego from Zod. If it wasn’t and was just about revenge he’d just want Joe-El dead. He always wanted people to grovel before him. One of many things unfortunate about Donner's firing and Lester's not keeping the same seriousness for Zod is that it didn't really fully utilize Stamp's acting abilities. With the soft-spoken scary portrayal, that at key times exploded in anger, I LOVVVED it! He was scary as heck. As originally directed, with Ursa almost never cracking a smile with her particular look- was chilling and the removal of Non's child-like moments added by the second director would have amped up the villain presence exponentially. When seeing Thanos in Endgame, Thanos kind of felt like all three villains wrapped into one- and the vibe I think that would have effectively scared the audience as originally intended from part one. But there are moments- the one second of Superman throwing himself to save Lois, and Non throwing him back and pointing form the DOnner cut was more chilling than all the extra screen time given by Lester's softening. Not to make it a Lester-bash (though I don't shy away from that, either.  --- but Stamp was an accomplished acto that could have had the opportunity to have exhibited so much more nuance. But.... same with Annette O'toole in SIII. Great actors, but not necessarily fully given the range to show what they could do with cartoonish versions of their characters. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jun 28, 2022 4:10:07 GMT -5
Not so. Saying Jor-El and his heirs would bow down before him was pretty pompous and narcissistic and was all Donner. That was pure anger and ego from Zod. If it wasn’t and was just about revenge he’d just want Joe-El dead. He always wanted people to grovel before him. One of many things unfortunate about Donner's firing and Lester's not keeping the same seriousness for Zod is that it didn't really fully utilize Stamp's acting abilities. With the soft-spoken scary portrayal, that at key times exploded in anger, I LOVVVED it! He was scary as heck. As originally directed, with Ursa almost never cracking a smile with her particular look- was chilling and the removal of Non's child-like moments added by the second director would have amped up the villain presence exponentially. When seeing Thanos in Endgame, Thanos kind of felt like all three villains wrapped into one- and the vibe I think that would have effectively scared the audience as originally intended from part one. But there are moments- the one second of Superman throwing himself to save Lois, and Non throwing him back and pointing form the DOnner cut was more chilling than all the extra screen time given by Lester's softening. Not to make it a Lester-bash (though I don't shy away from that, either. --- but Stamp was an accomplished acto that could have had the opportunity to have exhibited so much more nuance. But.... same with Annette O'toole in SIII. Great actors, but not necessarily fully given the range to show what they could do with cartoonish versions of their characters. I found Ursa to be the least changed by Lester's direction. Zod was turned into a parody. And Non went from looking like a chilling axe murderer in STM to a childlike buffoon in S2. Ursa was also a bit different, but less jarring than the other two. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 28, 2022 8:08:11 GMT -5
I guess you can call his whole motivation for singling out Jor-El being the final decision to condemn them to the Phantom Zone as a pompous move that ended up sparing their lives from Krypton’s destruction. It definitely is chilling the way Stamp starts off low key and raises his voice the further Brando walks away from him. He really sells the terror of the approaching imprisonment that awaits them. When we get to the Donner material in II, most of those nuances in the character disappear in favor of Stamp just playing cold and menacing, a quality that could be easily transferred to Brainiac. I always appreciated how under Lester‘s direction more character was injected into them. There was a definite and relatable through-line of how easily bored Zod got conquering Earth that was hardly addressed in Mankiewicz’s script. If I recall, the only indication of that was when Ursa complained that no one was even resisting their dominance and Zod pretty much told her to go somewhere else if she didn’t like it here. The whole pompous and arrogant angle shined through with the rewrites that were done under Lester’s direction. The whole Villains Conquer the World montage sounds great in concept, but seems to be a very hastily method with hardly a character to speak and just comes off as a threat. Donner did describe them as the martians from The War of the Worlds and I just am not convinced that they would’ve been as remembered as well if they didn’t have those qualities the Lester re-shoots brought forth. I remember when Smallville first introduced Phantom Zone villains, I was really excited at the prospect of seeing them finally appear based on what I had seen in II. However, when the episode played out, I found their characters to be incredibly boring because all they were we’re just a menace for Clark to deal with. I just can’t help but feel the same way when it comes to Donner's material of the villains. It wasn’t menacing at all to see them pointing their fingers at each other in the Fortress (without their finger beam, of course ). It all just felt like a forced method to be intimidating. Ursa got possibly her true character defining moment when she slams down the arm wrestler after he told her to sit on his lap. Of course, that’s not as menacing as when she tore open the astronaut suit for just being man. However that does bring up a conflict of how the villains aren’t necessarily supposed to do things that make you root for them. Jack O'Halloran minces no words when it comes to Donner over Lester, but he always describes Non as child-like. I hardly got any of those vibes in his Donner footage where he appears to be the quiet menace. The childish nature of him struggling to use the powers easily displayed by his peers came through with Lester. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jun 28, 2022 9:26:59 GMT -5
I guess you can call his whole motivation for singling out Jor-El being the final decision to condemn them to the Phantom Zone as a pompous move that ended up sparing their lives from Krypton’s destruction. It definitely is chilling the way Stamp starts off low key and raises his voice the further Brando walks away from him. He really sells the terror of the approaching imprisonment that awaits them. When we get to the Donner material in II, most of those nuances in the character disappear in favor of Stamp just playing cold and menacing, a quality that could be easily transferred to Brainiac. I always appreciated how under Lester‘s direction more character was injected into them. There was a definite and relatable through-line of how easily bored Zod got conquering Earth that was hardly addressed in Mankiewicz’s script. If I recall, the only indication of that was when Ursa complained that no one was even resisting their dominance and Zod pretty much told her to go somewhere else if she didn’t like it here. The whole pompous and arrogant angle shined through with the rewrites that were done under Lester’s direction. The whole Villains Conquer the World montage sounds great in concept, but seems to be a very hastily method with hardly a character to speak and just comes off as a threat. Donner did describe them as the martians from The War of the Worlds and I just am not convinced that they would’ve been as remembered as well if they didn’t have those qualities the Lester re-shoots brought forth. I remember when Smallville first introduced Phantom Zone villains, I was really excited at the prospect of seeing them finally appear based on what I had seen in II. However, when the episode played out, I found their characters to be incredibly boring because all they were we’re just a menace for Clark to deal with. I just can’t help but feel the same way when it comes to Donner's material of the villains. It wasn’t menacing at all to see them pointing their fingers at each other in the Fortress (without their finger beam, of course ). It all just felt like a forced method to be intimidating. Ursa got possibly her true character defining moment when she slams down the arm wrestler after he told her to sit on his lap. Of course, that’s not as menacing as when she tore open the astronaut suit for just being man. However that does bring up a conflict of how the villains aren’t necessarily supposed to do things that make you root for them. Jack O'Halloran minces no words when it comes to Donner over Lester, but he always describes Non as child-like. I hardly got any of those vibes in his Donner footage where he appears to be the quiet menace. The childish nature of him struggling to use the powers easily displayed by his peers came through with Lester. I also don't buy the story about Non always being childlike. He is the second person you see in STM (after Jor El), and he looks extremely scary when you first see him. Nothing cute or childlike about the way he is standing there, quietly hulking and with an insane look. The eerie lighting helped too. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 28, 2022 9:30:51 GMT -5
One of many things unfortunate about Donner's firing and Lester's not keeping the same seriousness for Zod is that it didn't really fully utilize Stamp's acting abilities. With the soft-spoken scary portrayal, that at key times exploded in anger, I LOVVVED it! He was scary as heck. As originally directed, with Ursa almost never cracking a smile with her particular look- was chilling and the removal of Non's child-like moments added by the second director would have amped up the villain presence exponentially. When seeing Thanos in Endgame, Thanos kind of felt like all three villains wrapped into one- and the vibe I think that would have effectively scared the audience as originally intended from part one. But there are moments- the one second of Superman throwing himself to save Lois, and Non throwing him back and pointing form the DOnner cut was more chilling than all the extra screen time given by Lester's softening. Not to make it a Lester-bash (though I don't shy away from that, either. --- but Stamp was an accomplished acto that could have had the opportunity to have exhibited so much more nuance. But.... same with Annette O'toole in SIII. Great actors, but not necessarily fully given the range to show what they could do with cartoonish versions of their characters. I found Ursa to be the least changed by Lester's direction. Zod was turned into a parody. And Non went from looking like a chilling axe murderer in STM to a childlike buffoon in S2. Ursa was also a bit different, but less jarring than the other two. I always thought Non got the biggest change. He went from terrifying brute to almost comedic and childlike like you said to the point that he was almost likable. Zod became more hoity toity. I think with Ursa the more overt man hating got toned down from her early development but she’s not much different. Her hatred of men got carried over from the comic book version of Faora that inspired Ursa. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 28, 2022 9:42:55 GMT -5
I guess you can call his whole motivation for singling out Jor-El being the final decision to condemn them to the Phantom Zone as a pompous move that ended up sparing their lives from Krypton’s destruction. It definitely is chilling the way Stamp starts off low key and raises his voice the further Brando walks away from him. He really sells the terror of the approaching imprisonment that awaits them. When we get to the Donner material in II, most of those nuances in the character disappear in favor of Stamp just playing cold and menacing, a quality that could be easily transferred to Brainiac. I always appreciated how under Lester‘s direction more character was injected into them. There was a definite and relatable through-line of how easily bored Zod got conquering Earth that was hardly addressed in Mankiewicz’s script. If I recall, the only indication of that was when Ursa complained that no one was even resisting their dominance and Zod pretty much told her to go somewhere else if she didn’t like it here. The whole pompous and arrogant angle shined through with the rewrites that were done under Lester’s direction. The whole Villains Conquer the World montage sounds great in concept, but seems to be a very hastily method with hardly a character to speak and just comes off as a threat. Zod could be cold but it was because he saw everyone as beneath him. It was a byproduct of his arrogance and craving power and wanting to rule. With Brainiac there is none of that because the source of him being so emotionless is something else entirely. There is no personality or mental complex to analyze which is far more terrifying. He’s completely inhuman. As for Lester’s phantom zoners having more personality it’s because of Lester’s knack for humor and his view on the material as a whole being to take it less seriously. It gives them character. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 28, 2022 9:52:04 GMT -5
Not so. Saying Jor-El and his heirs would bow down before him was pretty pompous and narcissistic and was all Donner. That was pure anger and ego from Zod. If it wasn’t and was just about revenge he’d just want Joe-El dead. He always wanted people to grovel before him. One of many things unfortunate about Donner's firing and Lester's not keeping the same seriousness for Zod is that it didn't really fully utilize Stamp's acting abilities. With the soft-spoken scary portrayal, that at key times exploded in anger, I LOVVVED it! He was scary as heck. As originally directed, with Ursa almost never cracking a smile with her particular look- was chilling and the removal of Non's child-like moments added by the second director would have amped up the villain presence exponentially. When seeing Thanos in Endgame, Thanos kind of felt like all three villains wrapped into one- and the vibe I think that would have effectively scared the audience as originally intended from part one. But there are moments- the one second of Superman throwing himself to save Lois, and Non throwing him back and pointing form the DOnner cut was more chilling than all the extra screen time given by Lester's softening. Not to make it a Lester-bash (though I don't shy away from that, either. --- but Stamp was an accomplished acto that could have had the opportunity to have exhibited so much more nuance. But.... same with Annette O'toole in SIII. Great actors, but not necessarily fully given the range to show what they could do with cartoonish versions of their characters. Lester saw them as “comic” book villains in the most literal sense of the word. He didn’t take the material as seriously. Donner seemed to view them as true alien invaders and conquerors and less comic booky in the stereotypical sense. Thanos showed the evolution of how Hollywood views these villains. He’s not the two dimensional ham it up bad guy. Feige and co wanted to give him deeper motivations and depth. The funny thing is his black order does remind me of Zods underlings when I think about it. The sadistic woman, the big scary brute, and the devout believer certainly have many of the same qualities as Non and Ursa. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 28, 2022 10:36:08 GMT -5
O'Halloran has cited Jackie Gleason’s performance in Gigot as his inspiration, which seems more like a Lester direction than Donner’s, where he was treated as the bouncer of the trio.
I guess the only real interesting aspect you can achieve with a character like Brainiac is to do essentially The Twilight Zone story To Serve Man, where he appears to me malevolent, but he’s really setting up the means of taking over. That was what Robert Meyer Burnett apparently wanted to do in the Superman Returns sequel.
It seemed that Donner and Mankiewicz really wanted to embrace that “comic” book villain sensibility with Luthor, that may have worked too well. I always wondered if that evolved from discussions with Hackman on wanting to do less serious tough guy roles he was famous for and wanting to do more comedy that he apparently relished in doing for Young Frankenstein. Their plan probably was to utilize the villains as a more serious threat to highlight the comedy of Luthor having to be subservient to them when he walked all over his previous subordinates.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jun 28, 2022 11:49:42 GMT -5
I guess the only real interesting aspect you can achieve with a character like Brainiac is to do essentially The Twilight Zone story To Serve Man, where he appears to me malevolent, but he’s really setting up the means of taking over. That was what Robert Meyer Burnett apparently wanted to do in the Superman Returns sequel. That’s what I think at least as far as his initial introduction but a Brainiac stories can be taken a lot of ways depending on the tone and execution and his ultimate goals. I’ve heard RMB talk about the same thing. Probably. I’m sure he wanted to do something different but Luthor being a man, a brilliant one, but still human let them take it that way to contrast against the more serious and physically powerful Superman to give the film some levity. If they wanted to go even further with the comedy they had Otis. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 30, 2022 1:08:00 GMT -5
" However, when the episode played out, I found their characters to be incredibly boring because all they were we’re just a menace for Clark to deal with. I just can’t help but feel the same way when it comes to Donner's material of the villains. It wasn’t menacing at all to see them pointing their fingers at each other in the Fortress (without their finger beam, of course ). It all just felt like a forced method to be intimidating." Respectfully disagree. I LOVED those moments- from the performances and reactions. In a few seconds, the pointing and reactions in those few seconds were more scary in my opinion than the real 'fisticuffs' of Zod and Supes fighting on top of the car of the woman who was amused by the whole thing. But, glad that there's (some) footage for alternate cuts to please us both. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 1, 2022 13:33:16 GMT -5
" However, when the episode played out, I found their characters to be incredibly boring because all they were we’re just a menace for Clark to deal with. I just can’t help but feel the same way when it comes to Donner's material of the villains. It wasn’t menacing at all to see them pointing their fingers at each other in the Fortress (without their finger beam, of course ). It all just felt like a forced method to be intimidating." Respectfully disagree. I LOVED those moments- from the performances and reactions. In a few seconds, the pointing and reactions in those few seconds were more scary in my opinion than the real 'fisticuffs' of Zod and Supes fighting on top of the car of the woman who was amused by the whole thing. But, glad that there's (some) footage for alternate cuts to please us both. Ditto. I felt they were more intimidating when they went from simply attacking to actually having some kind of coordinated strategy. Maybe not truly scary but a thinking villain is pretty menacing. |
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--- but Stamp was an accomplished acto that could have had the opportunity to have exhibited so much more nuance.
