Who ruined the Donner cut most?

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 27, 2022 19:49:28 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Kamdan, love ya, man--- but I think at the end of the day, we will probably agree that we love STM, and disagree on everything else Donner/Lester. That's cool, still love ya. (In a respectful not creepy way)

I love talking to you all that still stop by here. Don’t get much of that opportunity within my community.

Nuthin but love here, even when we disagree. That's why we're so cool!

[dejan]

@kamdan,ATP,Metallo and CAM

I think which ever way we slice it, it's almost impossible  to extricate the quality of the material that was available to Thau in 2005( so he could  assemble the DC) from the events that occured in 1977/78(which determined/induced said quality)!

It's difficult to simplify but I am going to try.
Just how good , objectively speaking , is the unique Donner footage for SII as shot in 1977?

How good is it in it's own right?
How good is it compared to Lester's replacement footage(where applicable)?
How good is it compared to the STM footage that used the same sound stages(ie Daily Planet and Fortress stuff)?
Of course , subjectivety is always going to influence one's decisions when it comes to evaluating all the above.

And just to complicate things, we have the "unknown variables": basically the takes that were not used for the DC assembly.
If better takes existed and were not used then Thau has to shoulder some of the responsibility.
If the better takes were lost way back then due to bad storage facilities/policies ect ect.......then Thau can be exonerated , as he could only work with what survived and the blame can then be apportioned to the Salkinds.
And if those were indeed the very best takes that Donner shot , then the blame shifts over to his team.

CAM made some fair points regarding some of the incomplete effects shots during the DP jump scene.
Where does the blame lie here?
The fact that the elements did not exist in the first place or were lost (again due to shoddy storage )  can be attributed to Donner or the Salkinds respectively.

My own personal gripes with this sequence actually precede Lois's eventual jump.

Don't get me wrong , it's still great to see Kidder and Reeve riff off each other but there is something missing in terms of the coverage.

So when Lois rushes up to Clark and says "get the picture?" you will notice that the angle stays the same.......despite the fact we can't see Reeve's all important reaction, seeing as it's a side angle view .
IMHO , what was needed here was a quick edit/jump cut to a full frontal angle on Clark's face to get the full impact of his reaction:




If you compare it to the corresponding Niagra jump scene in the theatrical:

When Lois says: "what's your hurry Superman?"-
We get a quick jump cut to a mid to close up look at Clark's face:
The induction of the music que also helps here.




That jump to a quick close up helps elevate the tension and drama and accentuates the kintetics of the scene(a quick back and forth between our protagonists).

And when I say kinetics I mean this @043:

There is a wide angle on Lois as she says:"Listen I am so sure you are  Superman....."

And then there is a quick jump cut to a close up as she completes the sentence:

...."that I am willing to bet my life on it!".

That's very skilled editing that delineates the experience and dexterity of pros like Victor Smith and Lester.
Subliminally , the audience feels that tension ratchet right up.

Also, the acting is superb and Lester deserves full credit here for extracting the best from his actors.
 
And that's what's missing in the 2006 cut.
So did Donner film such close ups/extra coverage or not?
Who knows.

Intuition says he would have.heck he did it on STM!!!!
And he had one of the most accomplished editors at his disposal at the time(Baird).

So maybe this emphasizes Thau's limitations relative to Victor Smith or Baird.

To be fair there is the extreme close up on Reeve when Lois says:"you would not let me die Supes!" 
Brilliant.
But such coverage(mid range to extreme close ups) was needed a little earlier in the scene as Kidder and Reeve bantered.

Which makes evaluating Donner's work for SII even harder!
Anyways feel free to chime in with your opinions!
It's all good.

[atp]

Compared to STM, most of the new Donner footage comes across like dress rehearsals or screen tests.

The hotel room screen test is probably the most extreme example, but even the Brando scenes have that same lack of quality.

The acting and editing just seems off somehow. Maybe it's because so many of the S2 scenes were shot very early in the process.

[dejan]

Jun 29, 2022 9:48:04 GMT -5 atp said:

Compared to STM, most of the new Donner footage comes across like dress rehearsals or screen tests.

The hotel room screen test is probably the most extreme example, but even the Brando scenes have that same lack of quality.

The acting and editing just seems off somehow. Maybe it's because so many of the S2 scenes were shot very early in the process.

Yes I totally agree that the shooting schedule that prioritised  SII material, may have , ironically , compromised some of the "still developing" innate chemistry between the actors.

Reeve and Kidder were made for each other.
That much was obvious from the screen tests.
However it still needed fine tuning.

I just realised another factor and a rather obvious one at that.
The music.

I know it's hardly a revelation as Thau recieved stern criticism for some of the choices he made regarding which musical cues accompanied his assembly.

However, I just realised that Thorne's music for the theatrical version, when Lois jumps into the Niagra synchronises perfectly with the DP sequence in Donner's SII.

So I did a quick video and stuck it up on Youtube to give an idea of how well they go together(IMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Bare in mind that my edit is  still rough but it gives an idea of what's possible.

In fact the marriage of Thorne's music to Donner's footage for this sequence  is so uncannily perfect that it makes me wonder if he timed his que ......to Donner's DP assembly in 1980!

Conversly, maybe Thau timed his assembly to Lester's footage but did away with Thorne's music.

Anyways here you go:



*Apologies if another fan had already done this at some point over the last 15 years*

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 28, 2022 14:25:08 GMT -5 dejan said:

@kamdan,ATP,Metallo and CAM

I think which ever way we slice it, it's almost impossible  to extricate the quality of the material that was available to Thau in 2005( so he could  assemble the DC) from the events that occured in 1977/78(which determined/induced said quality)!

It's difficult to simplify but I am going to try.
Just how good , objectively speaking , is the unique Donner footage for SII as shot in 1977?

How good is it in it's own right?
How good is it compared to Lester's replacement footage(where applicable)?
How good is it compared to the STM footage that used the same sound stages(ie Daily Planet and Fortress stuff)?
Of course , subjectivety is always going to influence one's decisions when it comes to evaluating all the above.

And just to complicate things, we have the "unknown variables": basically the takes that were not used for the DC assembly.
If better takes existed and were not used then Thau has to shoulder some of the responsibility.
If the better takes were lost way back then due to bad storage facilities/policies ect ect.......then Thau can be exonerated , as he could only work with what survived and the blame can then be apportioned to the Salkinds.
And if those were indeed the very best takes that Donner shot , then the blame shifts over to his team.

CAM made some fair points regarding some of the incomplete effects shots during the DP jump scene.
Where does the blame lie here?
The fact that the elements did not exist in the first place or were lost (again due to shoddy storage )  can be attributed to Donner or the Salkinds respectively.

My own personal gripes with this sequence actually precede Lois's eventual jump.

Don't get me wrong , it's still great to see Kidder and Reeve riff off each other but there is something missing in terms of the coverage.

So when Lois rushes up to Clark and says "get the picture?" you will notice that the angle stays the same.......despite the fact we can't see Reeve's all important reaction, seeing as it's a side angle view .
IMHO , what was needed here was a quick edit/jump cut to a full frontal angle on Clark's face to get the full impact of his reaction:




If you compare it to the corresponding Niagra jump scene in the theatrical:

When Lois says: "what's your hurry Superman?"-
We get a quick jump cut to a mid to close up look at Clark's face:
The induction of the music que also helps here.




That jump to a quick close up helps elevate the tension and drama and accentuates the kintetics of the scene(a quick back and forth between our protagonists).

And when I say kinetics I mean this @043:

There is a wide angle on Lois as she says:"Listen I am so sure you are  Superman....."

And then there is a quick jump cut to a close up as she completes the sentence:

...."that I am willing to bet my life on it!".

That's very skilled editing that delineates the experience and dexterity of pros like Victor Smith and Lester.
Subliminally , the audience feels that tension ratchet right up.

Also, the acting is superb and Lester deserves full credit here for extracting the best from his actors.
 
And that's what's missing in the 2006 cut.
So did Donner film such close ups/extra coverage or not?
Who knows.

Intuition says he would have.heck he did it on STM!!!!
And he had one of the most accomplished editors at his disposal at the time(Baird).

So maybe this emphasizes Thau's limitations relative to Victor Smith or Baird.

To be fair there is the extreme close up on Reeve when Lois says:"you would not let me die Supes!" 
Brilliant.
But such coverage(mid range to extreme close ups) was needed a little earlier in the scene as Kidder and Reeve bantered.

Which makes evaluating Donner's work for SII even harder!
Anyways feel free to chime in with your opinions!
It's all good.

Right... my thing is- If STM/SII was the ONLY thing that Donner directed, then I think one could be possibly more critical of the Donner cut and footage shot-

BUT.... even beyond STM- (which to me was evidence enough in itself of Donner's ability to get excellence and his standards)- there's the Omen, Ladyhawke, Lethal Weapon 1-3, Conspiracy Theory, Inside Moves, Goonies - and, yeah, there were some duds (primarily on story) but even with the duds, the performances were aces.... and those films I mentioned were mostly TOPS.

Filming early on with a headlong breakneck schedule may or may not have affected takes (we don't have access to view all the takes, it's wholly possible that the new editor that wasn't Baird chose not great ones)- but I go by probabilities based on amount of great films and performances Donner has shot BEYOND just STM.

Donner has done reshoots- reshoots and missing inserts also pop up on tv shows, so it's not unheard of.

Also- as mentioned, I would base what SII's dp jump (and I think it's a fair basis) on how Donner chose to shoot practical stunts for the opening of Lethal Weapon 1 and the part where Riggs and the suicide jumper jumped off the building.... those single shots add a LOT of energy as opposed to the blue screen of a Lois double falling.

I have a version that I can put up borrowing parts of fan cuts that I think restore a feeling of what Donner would have done, if he had the budget and ability to. While Donner signed off on the project, popping in for free granted isn't the same thing as a wholesale committment--- but on top of that, the objectivity and lack of funds to generate enough proper replacement footage may have been the recipe for the semi-disaster the final edit that the Donner cut became.

[atp]

Jun 29, 2022 14:37:11 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jun 29, 2022 9:48:04 GMT -5 atp said:

Compared to STM, most of the new Donner footage comes across like dress rehearsals or screen tests.

The hotel room screen test is probably the most extreme example, but even the Brando scenes have that same lack of quality.

The acting and editing just seems off somehow. Maybe it's because so many of the S2 scenes were shot very early in the process.

Yes I totally agree that the shooting schedule that prioritised  SII material, may have , ironically , compromised some of the "still developing" innate chemistry between the actors.

Reeve and Kidder were made for each other.
That much was obvious from the screen tests.
However it still needed fine tuning.

I just realised another factor and a rather obvious one at that.
The music.

I know it's hardly a revelation as Thau recieved stern criticism for some of the choices he made regarding which musical cues accompanied his assembly.

However, I just realised that Thorne's music for the theatrical version, when Lois jumps into the Niagra synchronises perfectly with the DP sequence in Donner's SII.

So I did a quick video and stuck it up on Youtube to give an idea of how well they go together(IMHO!!!!!!!!!!!!).
Bare in mind that my edit is  still rough but it gives an idea of what's possible.

In fact the marriage of Thorne's music to Donner's footage for this sequence  is so uncannily perfect that it makes me wonder if he timed his que ......to Donner's DP assembly in 1980!

Conversly, maybe Thau timed his assembly to Lester's footage but did away with Thorne's music.

Anyways here you go:



*Apologies if another fan had already done this at some point over the last 15 years*

Fantastic video. Yes, the music adds so much.

[dejan]

Jun 30, 2022 2:16:06 GMT -5 atp said:

ATP wrote:

Jun 29, 2022 14:37:11 GMT -5 dejan said:

Fantastic video. Yes, the music adds so much.

Thanks ATP.

This particular example definitely pertains to your original question for this thread- who in 2005/06 was to blame for the quality(or lack thereof) of the Donner Cut.

The use of either thematically incorrect or/and poorly syncronised music ques is defintely something that can be attributed to Thau.
Maybe if Donner had been paid, he would have cared a bit or had more astute creative inputs which could have generated a better final product......again who knows.

When Lois jumps out the window in the DC,  the que that Thau chose to accompany it , was the Ken Thorne music from the theatrical , when Superman emerges from wreakage of the bus only to observe the overpowering effect of the Villains's super breath on the citizens of Met.  
In that context , Thorne's music was appropriate because it alluded to a sense of resignation as Supes was powerless to stop the carnage.......in fact ,before taking off from the bus,  Reeve just bends over and sighs which accentuates the feeling of helplessness.

But Thau completely misunderstood that concept and simply took a literal approach to implementing that particular music que:

i.e
Thorne wrote music for the Villain's super breadth in the theatrical........therefore why not use that same que in the DC ,  because Clark is using his  super breath as he slows Lois's descent to the ground!!!!!!! duh!

Thorne's music for the Niagra jump(which itself was a retooling of the William's score for STM when Clark jumps out the DP) was perfectly attuned to the evolving tension between Clark and Lois as his secret identity was begining to unravel.

The music begins slowly at first and then gets louder and faster as Lois applies increasing pressure on Clark , culminating in the jump(be it in the theatrical or DC).

Thorne's music for this scene, was one of the highlights in the theatrical.....and IMHO works perfectly for Donner's version too.

And it takes this particular Donner daily Planet sequence to a whole other level emotionally.

heck, if a complete amatuer like me can notice this, it beggers belief how Thau could have missed the opportunity to apply Thorne's music correctly back in 06. 



 

[atp]

Jun 30, 2022 12:40:48 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jun 30, 2022 2:16:06 GMT -5 atp said:

ATP wrote:

Thanks ATP.

This particular example definitely pertains to your original question for this thread- who in 2005/06 was to blame for the quality(or lack thereof) of the Donner Cut.

The use of either thematically incorrect or/and poorly syncronised music ques is defintely something that can be attributed to Thau.
Maybe if Donner had been paid, he would have cared a bit or had more astute creative inputs which could have generated a better final product......again who knows.

When Lois jumps out the window in the DC,  the que that Thau chose to accompany it , was the Ken Thorne music from the theatrical , when Superman emerges from wreakage of the bus only to observe the overpowering effect of the Villains's super breath on the citizens of Met.  
In that context , Thorne's music was appropriate because it alluded to a sense of resignation as Supes was powerless to stop the carnage.......in fact ,before taking off from the bus,  Reeve just bends over and sighs which accentuates the feeling of helplessness.

But Thau completely misunderstood that concept and simply took a literal approach to implementing that particular music que:

i.e
Thorne wrote music for the Villain's super breadth in the theatrical........therefore why not use that same que in the DC ,  because Clark is using his  super breath as he slows Lois's descent to the ground!!!!!!! duh!

Thorne's music for the Niagra jump(which itself was a retooling of the William's score for STM when Clark jumps out the DP) was perfectly attuned to the evolving tension between Clark and Lois as his secret identity was begining to unravel.

The music begins slowly at first and then gets louder and faster as Lois applies increasing pressure on Clark , culminating in the jump(be it in the theatrical or DC).

Thorne's music for this scene, was one of the highlights in the theatrical.....and IMHO works perfectly for Donner's version too.

And it takes this particular Donner daily Planet sequence to a whole other level emotionally.

heck, if a complete amatuer like me can notice this, it beggers belief how Thau could have missed the opportunity to apply Thorne's music correctly back in 06. 



 

This really makes me appreciate Ken Thorne's work even more. He really knew what he was doing.

He adapted a lot of music from STM and reused it very well in S2 and S3 too.

I like the way the helicopter rescue in STM is reincarnated in S2 when Superman throws Zod into the Coca Cola sign. And it's also in the junkyard fight scene in S3.

He also used the music when the gas station blew up in STM for the part in S2 where Zod was trying to blow up the tanker with heat vision. That was quite a clever reference!

[atp]

Jun 30, 2022 12:40:48 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jun 30, 2022 2:16:06 GMT -5 atp said:

ATP wrote:

Thanks ATP.

This particular example definitely pertains to your original question for this thread- who in 2005/06 was to blame for the quality(or lack thereof) of the Donner Cut.

The use of either thematically incorrect or/and poorly syncronised music ques is defintely something that can be attributed to Thau.
Maybe if Donner had been paid, he would have cared a bit or had more astute creative inputs which could have generated a better final product......again who knows.

When Lois jumps out the window in the DC,  the que that Thau chose to accompany it , was the Ken Thorne music from the theatrical , when Superman emerges from wreakage of the bus only to observe the overpowering effect of the Villains's super breath on the citizens of Met.  
In that context , Thorne's music was appropriate because it alluded to a sense of resignation as Supes was powerless to stop the carnage.......in fact ,before taking off from the bus,  Reeve just bends over and sighs which accentuates the feeling of helplessness.

But Thau completely misunderstood that concept and simply took a literal approach to implementing that particular music que:

i.e
Thorne wrote music for the Villain's super breadth in the theatrical........therefore why not use that same que in the DC ,  because Clark is using his  super breath as he slows Lois's descent to the ground!!!!!!! duh!

Thorne's music for the Niagra jump(which itself was a retooling of the William's score for STM when Clark jumps out the DP) was perfectly attuned to the evolving tension between Clark and Lois as his secret identity was begining to unravel.

The music begins slowly at first and then gets louder and faster as Lois applies increasing pressure on Clark , culminating in the jump(be it in the theatrical or DC).

Thorne's music for this scene, was one of the highlights in the theatrical.....and IMHO works perfectly for Donner's version too.

And it takes this particular Donner daily Planet sequence to a whole other level emotionally.

heck, if a complete amatuer like me can notice this, it beggers belief how Thau could have missed the opportunity to apply Thorne's music correctly back in 06. 



 

That music you mentioned regarding the "super breath" is used at the start of the S2 opening credits. Where you see Gene Hackman's name appear.

And I think that was adapted from the pre-titles in STM, with the child reading the comic book.

[dejan]

 

ATP wrote:

This really makes me appreciate Ken Thorne's work even more. He really knew what he was doing.



He adapted a lot of music from STM and reused it very well in S2 and S3 too.



I like the way the helicopter rescue in STM is reincarnated in S2 when Superman throws Zod into the Coca Cola sign. And it's also in the junkyard fight scene in S3.



He also used the music when the gas station blew up in STM for the part in S2 where Zod was trying to blow up the tanker with heat vision. That was quite a clever reference!

Yes I agree.
Whatever the truth about William's decision not to reprise his orchestral duties for SII.......he made a great choice in recommending Thorne to Lester.
The original 35mm prints for SII aswell as the subsequent home video releases right up until the 2006 DVDs featured very muddy Dolby Stereo mixes which did no favours to the fidelity of Thorne's compositions.
But the 2011 Bluray(and 2006 DVD) sound mixes for the theatrical version of SII are derived from the 70mm 6 tracks(re purposed for 5.1) and Thorne's music has much more oomph as a result.  

Thorne defintely made excellent artistic decisions as to how re arrange William's music to match which ever narrative unfolded in SII.
And he came up with some terrific original music for some other scenes , i.e in Don's Diner....which is 100% Donner footage no less!!......maybe Thorne had a real feeling for Donner's sequences lol.

I am not sure what the shooting schedule was for Lester in 79' when it came to completing SII , but it would not surprise me if  he played out Donner's version of the Daily Planet jump scene to Thorne so the composer could anticipate in advance , the dynamics and kinetics that would be needed for his composition for the up coming Niagra jump sequence.
So when the dailies arrived from Canada, Thorne already had a head start!
I can't prove it but it makes sense in terms of helping to speed up the production!
And Thorne's Niagra jump music matches Donner's corresponding Daily Planet movie footage rythms , beat for beat.
That can't be a coincidence.

Going back to Thau, to be fair, it's not his fault that he did not have a composer to create original music from scratch to complement his Donner assemblies.
Thau was always working within the confines of whatever music had already been created way back then , which was always going limit some of his sonic choices.

[atp]

Jun 30, 2022 16:28:09 GMT -5 dejan said:

 

ATP wrote:

This really makes me appreciate Ken Thorne's work even more. He really knew what he was doing.



He adapted a lot of music from STM and reused it very well in S2 and S3 too.



I like the way the helicopter rescue in STM is reincarnated in S2 when Superman throws Zod into the Coca Cola sign. And it's also in the junkyard fight scene in S3.



He also used the music when the gas station blew up in STM for the part in S2 where Zod was trying to blow up the tanker with heat vision. That was quite a clever reference!

Yes I agree.
Whatever the truth about William's decision not to reprise his orchestral duties for SII.......he made a great choice in recommending Thorne to Lester.
The original 35mm prints for SII aswell as the subsequent home video releases right up until the 2006 DVDs featured very muddy Dolby Stereo mixes which did no favours to the fidelity of Thorne's compositions.
But the 2011 Bluray(and 2006 DVD) sound mixes for the theatrical version of SII are derived from the 70mm 6 tracks(re purposed for 5.1) and Thorne's music has much more oomph as a result.  

Thorne defintely made excellent artistic decisions as to how re arrange William's music to match which ever narrative unfolded in SII.
And he came up with some terrific original music for some other scenes , i.e in Don's Diner....which is 100% Donner footage no less!!......maybe Thorne had a real feeling for Donner's sequences lol.

I am not sure what the shooting schedule was for Lester in 79' when it came to completing SII , but it would not surprise me if  he played out Donner's version of the Daily Planet jump scene to Thorne so the composer could anticipate in advance , the dynamics and kinetics that would be needed for his composition for the up coming Niagra jump sequence.
So when the dailies arrived from Canada, Thorne already had a head start!
I can't prove it but it makes sense in terms of helping to speed up the production!
And Thorne's Niagra jump music matches Donner's corresponding Daily Planet movie footage rythms , beat for beat.
That can't be a coincidence.

Going back to Thau, to be fair, it's not his fault that he did not have a composer to create original music from scratch to complement his Donner assemblies.
Thau was always working within the confines of whatever music had already been created way back then , which was always going limit some of his sonic choices.

I also loved the music when Clark is walking back to the fortress in S3. Matches with the equivalent scene in the first movie.

And I also thought the Evil Superman music in S3 was very well done. Obviously based on the villains music in STM, but not exactly the same.

[Metallo]

Jun 29, 2022 9:48:04 GMT -5 atp said:

Compared to STM, most of the new Donner footage comes across like dress rehearsals or screen tests.

The hotel room screen test is probably the most extreme example, but even the Brando scenes have that same lack of quality.

The acting and editing just seems off somehow. Maybe it's because so many of the S2 scenes were shot very early in the process.

I think you’re right. A lot of people used to think he would have reshot a lot of those less impressive scenes if he’d stayed on. And that’s if the producers had allowed him to reshoot anything more. Lots of big “ifs” surrounding any hypothetical Superman II.

Even with STM a lot of it was polished up in the final edit. If we’d gotten another version with other footage from what we saw in the various extended versions of the movie it wouldn’t have been as good. Some of that stuff was cut for good reason.

[dejan]

ATP Wrote:

I also loved the music when Clark is walking back to the fortress in S3. Matches with the equivalent scene in the first movie.



And I also thought the Evil Superman music in S3 was very well done. Obviously based on the villains music in STM, but not exactly the same.

Yep those were all great transpositions(with slight modifications) by Thorne/Lester from William's ques from STM onto SII theatrical.

I just had another play around with my video editing software.
Experimented with the musical que for Clark changing to Supes at the beginning of Lester's SII , imposing it onto the beautiful camera zoom on Lois as she realises Clark could be Supes in Donner's version:

   

It's amazing how the tone and kinetics of the music can alter the way images can be emotionally percieved! 

[atp]

Jul 1, 2022 14:48:34 GMT -5 dejan said:

ATP Wrote:

I also loved the music when Clark is walking back to the fortress in S3. Matches with the equivalent scene in the first movie.



And I also thought the Evil Superman music in S3 was very well done. Obviously based on the villains music in STM, but not exactly the same.

Yep those were all great transpositions(with slight modifications) by Thorne/Lester from William's ques from STM onto SII theatrical.

I just had another play around with my video editing software.
Experimented with the musical que for Clark changing to Supes at the beginning of Lester's SII , imposing it onto the beautiful camera zoom on Lois as she realises Clark could be Supes in Donner's version:

   

It's amazing how the tone and kinetics of the music can alter the way images can be emotionally percieved! 

Yes music adds so much. Which is why I really can't understand why movie sountracks have gone backwards lately.

Even great composers like john Williams and Hans Zimmer just make generic crap these days. It adds nothing to the films. I cannot understand this trend.

[Metallo]

Jul 1, 2022 15:50:59 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 1, 2022 14:48:34 GMT -5 dejan said:

ATP Wrote:
Yep those were all great transpositions(with slight modifications) by Thorne/Lester from William's ques from STM onto SII theatrical.

I just had another play around with my video editing software.
Experimented with the musical que for Clark changing to Supes at the beginning of Lester's SII , imposing it onto the beautiful camera zoom on Lois as she realises Clark could be Supes in Donner's version:

   

It's amazing how the tone and kinetics of the music can alter the way images can be emotionally percieved! 

Yes music adds so much. Which is why I really can't understand why movie sountracks have gone backwards lately.

Even great composers like john Williams and Hans Zimmer just make generic crap these days. It adds nothing to the films. I cannot understand this trend.

Williams is over 90 has done everything under the sun. At least 50 years of great output. He gets a pass from me because of that.

Zimmer has just become an overused overexposed lazy has been who bought into his own hype and then churned out a legion of clones and caused studios to look for copycats. Especially after The Dark Knight and Inception.

The real problem is studios and many directors wanting generic work and the over reliance on temp scores plus younger composers mentored by people like Zimmer who are more than happy to comply with all that.

[atp]

Jul 1, 2022 20:26:36 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 1, 2022 15:50:59 GMT -5 atp said:

Yes music adds so much. Which is why I really can't understand why movie sountracks have gone backwards lately.

Even great composers like john Williams and Hans Zimmer just make generic crap these days. It adds nothing to the films. I cannot understand this trend.

Williams is over 90 has done everything under the sun. At least 50 years of great output. He gets a pass from me because of that.

Zimmer has just become an overused overexposed lazy has been who bought into his own hype and then churned out a legion of clones and caused studios to look for copycats. Especially after The Dark Knight and Inception.

The real problem is studios and many directors wanting generic work and the over reliance on temp scores plus younger composers mentored by people like Zimmer who are more than happy to comply with all that.

I don't blame Williams or Zimmer. They are just dping what they're told. I blame the directors and producers. They are the ones responsible.

Something is going on that has killed off having good sountracks . I havent heard a good, memorable soundtrack for a movie in years.

[Metallo]

Jul 2, 2022 10:59:50 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 1, 2022 20:26:36 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Williams is over 90 has done everything under the sun. At least 50 years of great output. He gets a pass from me because of that.

Zimmer has just become an overused overexposed lazy has been who bought into his own hype and then churned out a legion of clones and caused studios to look for copycats. Especially after The Dark Knight and Inception.

The real problem is studios and many directors wanting generic work and the over reliance on temp scores plus younger composers mentored by people like Zimmer who are more than happy to comply with all that.

I don't blame Williams or Zimmer. I blame the directors and producers. They are the ones responsible.

Something is going on that makes good sountracks unappealing. I havent heard a good, memorable soundtrack for a movie in years.

I don’t blame Williams. I do blame Zimmer. He got lazy and put a bunch of other composers out in the world that just do the same thing he does. He’s not even the same style of composer he used to be. Williams might not be turning out the same quality of music but he’s still John Williams. His work is still recognizable. What I blame filmmakers and studios for is wanting everything to sound like Zimmer for a while. But for the most part it’s the decision makers that have held back good film composers and a lot of them are frustrated because of that.

[atp]

Jul 2, 2022 11:06:27 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 2, 2022 10:59:50 GMT -5 atp said:

I don't blame Williams or Zimmer. I blame the directors and producers. They are the ones responsible.

Something is going on that makes good sountracks unappealing. I havent heard a good, memorable soundtrack for a movie in years.

I don’t blame Williams. I do blame Zimmer. He got lazy and put a bunch of other composers out in the world that just do the same thing he does. He’s not even the same style of composer he used to be. Williams might not be turning out the same quality of music but he’s still John Williams. His work is still recognizable. What I blame filmmakers and studios for is wanting everything to sound like Zimmer for a while. But for the most part it’s the decision makers that have held back good film composers and a lot of them are frustrated because of that.

I still think the issue goes higher than individual composers. I think they have been told to just make unmemorable crap music for some reason.

If directors and producers wanted to have amazing soundtracks, they'd demand it, or they would find other composers. You can't tell me that there are no great film composers out there.

No. I think something else is behind it, but I just don't know why. I mean, everything about movies has changed to be more generic and less memorable. There are no real leading men anymore either. Certainly not the same league as in the 70s and 80s.

Similarly, the movie scripts and stories these days are also all bland and nondistinctive.

I'm sure this is all by design. But like I said, I don't understand why it's happening.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 2, 2022 11:19:37 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 2, 2022 11:06:27 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I don’t blame Williams. I do blame Zimmer. He got lazy and put a bunch of other composers out in the world that just do the same thing he does. He’s not even the same style of composer he used to be. Williams might not be turning out the same quality of music but he’s still John Williams. His work is still recognizable. What I blame filmmakers and studios for is wanting everything to sound like Zimmer for a while. But for the most part it’s the decision makers that have held back good film composers and a lot of them are frustrated because of that.

I still think the issue goes higher than individual composers. I think they have been told to just make unmemorable crap music for some reason.

If directors and producers wanted to have amazing soundtracks, they'd demand it, or they would find other composers. You can't tell me that there are no great film composers out there.

No. I think something else is behind it, but I just don't know why. I mean, everything about movies has changed to be more generic and less memorable. There are no real leading men anymore either. Certainly not the same league as in the 70s and 80s.

Similarly, the movie scripts and stories these days are also all bland and nondistinctive.

I'm sure this is all by design. But like I said, I don't understand why it's happening.

I get that feeling, too, with the music in movies for a long time. Either the directors or studios might be requesting or accepting music that fades more into the background or just isn't particularly memorable.

[atp]

Jul 2, 2022 12:20:28 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 2, 2022 11:19:37 GMT -5 atp said:

I still think the issue goes higher than individual composers. I think they have been told to just make unmemorable crap music for some reason.

If directors and producers wanted to have amazing soundtracks, they'd demand it, or they would find other composers. You can't tell me that there are no great film composers out there.

No. I think something else is behind it, but I just don't know why. I mean, everything about movies has changed to be more generic and less memorable. There are no real leading men anymore either. Certainly not the same league as in the 70s and 80s.

Similarly, the movie scripts and stories these days are also all bland and nondistinctive.

I'm sure this is all by design. But like I said, I don't understand why it's happening.

I get that feeling, too, with the music in movies for a long time. Either the directors or studios might be requesting or accepting music that fades more into the background or just isn't particularly memorable.

I can't understand why that is. But it's definitely for real.

If directors wanted to have superb soundtracks, they could have them. Something is driving this move to mediocrity.

The last memorable soundtrack I can recall was Creed in 2015.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 3, 2022 9:21:13 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 2, 2022 12:20:28 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I get that feeling, too, with the music in movies for a long time. Either the directors or studios might be requesting or accepting music that fades more into the background or just isn't particularly memorable.

I can't understand why that is. But it's definitely for real.

If directors wanted to have superb soundtracks, they could have them. Something is driving this move to mediocrity.

The last memorable soundtrack I can recall was Creed in 2015.

No love for Guardians of the Galaxy tunes? (Though I know that's cheating with the older songs).

I loved the Rocky 3 and 4 soundtracks- I was bummed that Creed (which were pretty good films!) didn't have a soundtrack I was excited about.

With all the buzz, I thought Top Gun would have had a great soundtrack, but.. ehh. Wish we got more Kenny Loggins.

[dejan]

Had more fun synching Donner's SII footage to different musical cues.
This time I aligned the Fortress Of Solitude que from STM to Lois's discovery of Supe's identity.
IMHO this works beautifully:

[Kamdan]

The tracked music cues re-edits are cute to watch, but I’m growing to disapprove them more and more as I get older, especially how they appear in the final films themselves. Those cues were written for a specific scene and hearing them repeated again sounds like cheap recycling, which I can forgive in the original Star Trek series where they reused cues over and over to save money.

[atp]

Jul 6, 2022 6:46:01 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

The tracked music cues are cute to watch, but I’m growing to disapprove them more and more as I get older, especially how they appear in the films themselves. Those cues were written for a specific scene and hearing them repeated again sounds like cheap recycling, which I can forgive in the original Star Trek series where they reused cues over and over to save money.

This is another feature of a truly great film score: that each scene has its own unique music that works perfectly.

In STM, Krypton's music sounded different to Smallville's which sounded different to the Fortress and so on. I don't think Williams used the same music twice in STM.

You don't get that quality today. Not only do all movies sound the same, all the scenes within them sound the same too.

[Kamdan]

I seriously doubt it was ever in the cards that Williams was going to seriously return to write new cues for The Donner Cut. It’s a shame they didn’t let John Ottoman or hired an up and comer like Michael Giacchino to do some work on it other than just re-edit the cues from the first film mixed awkwardly with the second.