dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 6, 2022 10:42:53 GMT -5
The tracked music cues re-edits are cute to watch, but I’m growing to disapprove them more and more as I get older, especially how they appear in the final films themselves. Those cues were written for a specific scene and hearing them repeated again sounds like cheap recycling, which I can forgive in the original Star Trek series where they reused cues over and over to save money. I hear you Kamdan and totally agree with you. To be fair to Thau, he was always going to be on the backfoot with regards to how the Donner Cut would be "Spotted" and with which cues. This to my mind raises an interesting question: From a hypothetical standpoint, imagine if Donner had managed to shoot ALL the footage for SII back in the day.....but got fired nonetheless , was replaced by Lester and then came back in 2005 to "finish and redit" the picture. The music is so important that even if all that footage was available for assembly.......the final product would still have been several notches down in terms of emotional impact if the musical motifs that accompanied it were substandard(composed by a different musician) or just recycled from either Donner's STM or Lester's SII. Of course ,some say that Thorne recycled William's music but Thorne made perfect adjustments(extra notes here, more beats there ect ect) to fit the new narrative. The reports regarding the true amount of footage that was in the can back in 77/78 for SII ,were always a bit ambigous. But even if all the footage had been shot way back then.........with no ORIGINAL music to accompany it.......would have been to the detriment of said footage. So when Kidder,Donner and O' Halloran boasted in the early 00s ,about there being a whole other SII in a vault someplace.......it was a touch deceptive because there are so many other elements(sound effects/dialogue/ADR/music) apart from the raw footage that contribute to the quality of the final film. And those all important elements were simply non-existant. In other words , The Donner Cut never had a chance. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2022 11:25:25 GMT -5
Thorne did a really admirable job of reusing existing music for S2 and S3.
I wouldn't say he recycled it. Rather, he repurposed it, and adapted where necessary.
It still has the "DNA" of the original cues from STM, but it never feels like it was simply copied and pasted.
Just one example: The music for the chemical plant fire scene in S3 takes a lot from STM's helicopter rescue and earthquake scenes ,but it still doesn't feel like a simple recycle.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 6, 2022 12:09:37 GMT -5
Thorne did a really admirable job of reusing existing music for S2 and S3. I wouldn't say he recycled it. Rather, he repurposed it, and adapted where necessary. It still has the "DNA" of the original cues from STM, but it never feels like it was simply copied and pasted. Just one example: The music for the chemical plant fire scene in S3 takes a lot from STM's helicopter rescue and earthquake scenes ,but it still doesn't feel like a simple recycle. I’d agree with that. I thought he did a good job adapting Williams themes and making them just different enough to fit new scenes and the tone of a different film and director. Thorne’s stuff sounded more poppy a comic booky. Not as epic or majestic as Williams original compositions but neither were Lester’s films overall. |
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Post by atp on Jul 6, 2022 12:36:21 GMT -5
Mr Thau should have created CGI music for the Donner Cut
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 6, 2022 13:57:16 GMT -5
Mr Thau should have created CGI music for the Donner Cut LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 6, 2022 18:43:47 GMT -5
I seriously doubt it was ever in the cards that Williams was going to seriously return to write new cues for The Donner Cut. It’s a shame they didn’t let John Ottoman or hired an up and comer like Michael Giacchino to do some work on it other than just re-edit the cues from the first film mixed awkwardly with the second. I agree- one big thing that was a suprise years before was listening to the commentary for the director's cut of Brian Helgeland's "Payback" (if memory serves)--- and hearing that WB didn't provide much money at all even then for music.... years later hearing that (it might have been one of the Family Guy parodies of Star Wars)- music was also cut and pasted from Williams music--- really highlighting what a big deal it is (I imagine how costly it is) to get NEW music for recuts. When Peter Jackson's extended cuts advertised 'new' music for them, I shrugged and wondered what the big deal was... but now I do. For the Donner cut, it's just done SO badly with the music recycling. I get they were understaffed (because Michael Thau more/less did mention the low budget for the cut)- but if certain paid hours were allocated and there was a tight deadline--- I totally don't get why the perfectly adapted Williams/Thorne music for some of the Donner scenes had precious editing time wasted on redoing score that was already fine.... or re-editing of Donner scenes that were already cut (presumably) by Baird with great audio in the extended tv cut (example- the Balcony and the talk outside the fortress by Lois & Supes)--- So.... I'm guessing the budget was so low (and a huge chunk to Brando's estate)- there was zero chance of any new music cues for the Donner cut- so reusing any of the Williams cues from the films was permissible- but, ultimately.... everyone seems to agree- it was done badly and made the Donner cut look worse, unfortunately. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 6, 2022 18:47:00 GMT -5
The tracked music cues re-edits are cute to watch, but I’m growing to disapprove them more and more as I get older, especially how they appear in the final films themselves. Those cues were written for a specific scene and hearing them repeated again sounds like cheap recycling, which I can forgive in the original Star Trek series where they reused cues over and over to save money. I hear you Kamdan and totally agree with you. To be fair to Thau, he was always going to be on the backfoot with regards to how the Donner Cut would be "Spotted" and with which cues. This to my mind raises an interesting question: From a hypothetical standpoint, imagine if Donner had managed to shoot ALL the footage for SII back in the day.....but got fired nonetheless , was replaced by Lester and then came back in 2005 to "finish and redit" the picture. The music is so important that even if all that footage was available for assembly.......the final product would still have been several notches down in terms of emotional impact if the musical motifs that accompanied it were substandard(composed by a different musician) or just recycled from either Donner's STM or Lester's SII. Of course ,some say that Thorne recycled William's music but Thorne made perfect adjustments(extra notes here, more beats there ect ect) to fit the new narrative. The reports regarding the true amount of footage that was in the can back in 77/78 for SII ,were always a bit ambigous. But even if all the footage had been shot way back then.........with no ORIGINAL music to accompany it.......would have been to the detriment of said footage. So when Kidder,Donner and O' Halloran boasted in the early 00s ,about there being a whole other SII in a vault someplace.......it was a touch deceptive because there are so many other elements(sound effects/dialogue/ADR/music) apart from the raw footage that contribute to the quality of the final film. And those all important elements were simply non-existant. In other words , The Donner Cut never had a chance. I'm fine with the 'deception'- if that's what was needed- as long as I had a chance to see what it looked like before I died... regardless of how it looked- but what bums me out is not being able to see the other takes Reeve and Brando had done since the estate was paid off presumably for use--- and so it'd be far easier to discern if the best takes REALLY were used or not (there's no way to know and sadly there's little trust on Thau's editing judgement based on different choices with the final outcome.) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 7, 2022 11:13:49 GMT -5
CAM wrote:
Actually, thinking about it.....maybe a better release than the one we got ,would have been a DVD with all the unique Donner footage in "deleted scenes " form but with multiple takes also available for viewing.
Also included would have been the individual blue screen composites(i.e Brando reciting the poem about trees ect ect).
It would have been a hard sell commercially speaking ,ofcourse, outside of the hardcore fanbase and I have to admit I can't think of an analogous situation for another movie having that kind of high density , deleted scenes footage.
But SII is a very unique case of course, especially from the photochemical era of film making.
The Snyder cut is not a fair comparison.
And it says a lot that Snyder could assemble most of his "lost" footage on a computer during a pandemic!
Viggo Mortensen gave an interview a few years back saying that the Lord Of The Rings films were a mess ....especially the 2nd and 3rd ones.
They were saved in reshoots and pick ups:
I would wager that Donner's SII(what was shot of it back in 77/78) was far superior in quality to whatever raw footage Jackson shot during the ORIGINAL production run for the Two Towers and Return Of The King.
Jackson of course, had the benefit of coming back to refilm what was not up to scratch.
Also, the LOTR flicks are far more dependent on SPFX than STM or SII(be it Lester or Donner) , which made it much easier for Jackson to plug up the holes.
So what Donner accomplished with SII was truly remarkable in it's own right!
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 7, 2022 15:21:09 GMT -5
Actually, thinking about it.....maybe a better release than the one we got ,would have been a DVD with all the unique Donner footage in "deleted scenes " form but with multiple takes also available for viewing. Also included would have been the individual blue screen composites(i.e Brando reciting the poem about trees ect ect). It would have been a hard sell commercially speaking ,ofcourse, outside of the hardcore fanbase and I have to admit I can't think of an analogous situation for another movie having that kind of high density , deleted scenes footage. But SII is a very unique case of course, especially from the photochemical era of film making. The Snyder cut is not a fair comparison. And it says a lot that Snyder could assemble most of his "lost" footage on a computer during a pandemic! Viggo Mortensen gave an interview a few years back saying that the Lord Of The Rings films were a mess ....especially the 2nd and 3rd ones. They were saved in reshoots and pick ups:
I would wager that Donner's SII(what was shot of it back in 77/78) was far superior in quality to whatever raw footage Jackson shot during the ORIGINAL production run for the Two Towers and Return Of The King. Jackson of course, had the benefit of coming back to refilm what was not up to scratch. Also, the LOTR flicks are far more dependent on SPFX than STM or SII(be it Lester or Donner) , which made it much easier for Jackson to plug up the holes. So what Donner accomplished with SII was truly remarkable in it's own right! That’s a good point. Even though reshoots are a bad word to some people some films have been saved with reshoots. Some films have also been saved in the editing room The big difference between the Snyder Cut and the Donner Cut is Snyder finished principal photography and had a rough version of the film edited together. Donner never got that far in the process back during Superman II’s original production. Most of Snyder’s work on his Justice League was post production. He did shoot new material later but he didn’t need to. He decided to transform his film into something else. Where the two films productions are similar is directors being replaced during the process. The reasons were different though. I’d love to know which one got a better return on their investment: the Snyder cut of the Donner cut. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison because of the decline of physical disc sales and the existence of streaming as well as the 15 year head start the Donner cut’s had but I’d still love to know. WB will probably never release these numbers in a public way but if someone dug hard enough I bet they could find some information. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 7, 2022 20:13:28 GMT -5
Both versions of Justice League were crap.
They were both bloated, disjointed trash with too much CGI
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 7, 2022 20:37:29 GMT -5
Both versions of Justice League were crap. They were both bloated, disjointed trash with too much CGI The theatrical cut is at most two hours though. Snyders directors cut is a pretentious four out slog. It’s more consistent but that’s like saying sh!t is more consistent. It’s still sh!t. Just more and of the same color. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 7, 2022 23:38:38 GMT -5
CAM wrote: Actually, thinking about it.....maybe a better release than the one we got ,would have been a DVD with all the unique Donner footage in "deleted scenes " form but with multiple takes also available for viewing. Also included would have been the individual blue screen composites(i.e Brando reciting the poem about trees ect ect). It would have been a hard sell commercially speaking ,ofcourse, outside of the hardcore fanbase and I have to admit I can't think of an analogous situation for another movie having that kind of high density , deleted scenes footage. But SII is a very unique case of course, especially from the photochemical era of film making. The Snyder cut is not a fair comparison. And it says a lot that Snyder could assemble most of his "lost" footage on a computer during a pandemic! Viggo Mortensen gave an interview a few years back saying that the Lord Of The Rings films were a mess ....especially the 2nd and 3rd ones. They were saved in reshoots and pick ups:
I would wager that Donner's SII(what was shot of it back in 77/78) was far superior in quality to whatever raw footage Jackson shot during the ORIGINAL production run for the Two Towers and Return Of The King. Jackson of course, had the benefit of coming back to refilm what was not up to scratch. Also, the LOTR flicks are far more dependent on SPFX than STM or SII(be it Lester or Donner) , which made it much easier for Jackson to plug up the holes. So what Donner accomplished with SII was truly remarkable in it's own right! Well said Dejan and I agree... I would rather have seen all the takes in a deleted scenes section given how much of the 'finished' (which isn't really accurate given stuff wasn't shot or needed reshooting by Donner) Donner Cut was pretty disappointing. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 7, 2022 23:46:17 GMT -5
I’d love to know which one got a better return on their investment: the Snyder cut of the Donner cut. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison because of the decline of physical disc sales and the existence of streaming as well as the 15 year head start the Donner cut’s had but I’d still love to know. WB will probably never release these numbers in a public way but if someone dug hard enough I bet they could find some information. I think what makes figuring out the Donner cut actual profits next to impossible is how the dvd/blu ray from the outset was included in the boxset collection. If they ONLY made the dvd/blu ray available as a solo item from the outset--- perhaps it would be easier to figure out if it was a success and how much of a success it was. But- maybe they have a formula that figures it out accurately. (Shrug) And with the Snyder cut on HBO Max- seems like so many different variables, would be difficult to impossible to figure out accurately which was more successful--- but the Snyder Cut had so many more advantages by having the footage already shot by Snyder versus Donner who quit/was fired way too early .... I wouldn't be suprised if the Donner cut was sort of doomed in some way with so many things against it- let alone having it compared to the Snyder Cut. (It would have been fantastic (especially now with Deepfake tech to help) to have had $20 million allocated to fix the Donner cut and really fill in the gaps as much as possible. ) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 8, 2022 6:40:07 GMT -5
Metallo Thanks for pointing out that big difference between JL and SII , in that Snyder did actually get to finish principal photography in the first place. It's interesting to note that in the last 20 years or so even that term , "principal photography" , has wildly different conotations to the way movies like STM and SII were made. The Matrix and Lord Of The Rings sequels are now nearly 20 years old in their own right , but even by that point the ability to use CGI to extend physical sets with green screen backgrounds was already widely in practice. Now it has become a fine art!: All of this was impossible back in Donner's day ofcourse. Yes there were matt paintings which served the same purpose......but those would be utilised sparingly and with good reason. They needed to be aligned perfectly with the live footage foreground , hence requiring a lot of time consuming work. It's the reason(amongst many others) that it took approximately 3 years to film something like The Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi. That's not to say that the software requirements of merging different elements are easy to do these days. But any mistakes made during physical photography can actually be digitally corrected. Back in the day when STM and Star Wars were made , any technical errors incorporated into the live footage neccesitated the whole thing having to be physically reshot. So Donner's accomplishment in getting as much completed as he eventually did with regards to SII was an incredible feat. Jackson,The Wachowskis and Verbinski had it much easier when it came to completing their respective projects that involved multiple films being photographed simultaneously. As for Snyder......had he been born 20 years earlier.....would never have got past making TV commercials and music videos.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 8, 2022 14:42:52 GMT -5
I’d love to know which one got a better return on their investment: the Snyder cut of the Donner cut. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison because of the decline of physical disc sales and the existence of streaming as well as the 15 year head start the Donner cut’s had but I’d still love to know. WB will probably never release these numbers in a public way but if someone dug hard enough I bet they could find some information. I think what makes figuring out the Donner cut actual profits next to impossible is how the dvd/blu ray from the outset was included in the boxset collection. If they ONLY made the dvd/blu ray available as a solo item from the outset--- perhaps it would be easier to figure out if it was a success and how much of a success it was. But- maybe they have a formula that figures it out accurately. (Shrug) And with the Snyder cut on HBO Max- seems like so many different variables, would be difficult to impossible to figure out accurately which was more successful--- but the Snyder Cut had so many more advantages by having the footage already shot by Snyder versus Donner who quit/was fired way too early .... I wouldn't be suprised if the Donner cut was sort of doomed in some way with so many things against it- let alone having it compared to the Snyder Cut. (It would have been fantastic (especially now with Deepfake tech to help) to have had $20 million allocated to fix the Donner cut and really fill in the gaps as much as possible. ) It would take a lot of work but getting a ballpark figure of how much the Donner cut’s made since 2006 or during a limited period of time would be possible. When it comes to box sets break it down as price of the overall set per disc. The earnings of The Snyder cut would be more difficult because of streaming. The biggest reason it was given the go ahead was because they wanted to draw subscribers for HBO Max. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 9, 2022 8:06:53 GMT -5
he he
Turns out another fan had already rescored Lois's jump with Thorne's music from Niagra back in 2010!
Again , even the minutest change in the timing, beats and rythms of the music , affects the emotional resonance of the sequence as a whole:
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 13, 2022 16:23:16 GMT -5
he he Turns out another fan had already rescored Lois's jump with Thorne's music from Niagra back in 2010! Again , even the minutest change in the timing, beats and rythms of the music , affects the emotional resonance of the sequence as a whole: Agreed- there's also missing shots if Donner shot it the way scripted- Lois was supposed to see Supes superimposed over where Clark was, a big difference in the beginning. (And more unique at the time)- in addition to what would have been a practical stunt I imagine for the jump like in Lethal weapon (or at least a closeup of her falling as had most of Donner's sequences in the Superman films. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 20, 2022 16:27:53 GMT -5
Had another bash at adding some musical ques to the opening sequence at the Daily Planet.
I can empaphise with Ken Thorne in terms of how he must have felt back in 1979 when he was rearranging William's original compositions to fit the narrative of SII.
This time I used the opening beats from the Supes/Lois romantic flight que in STM......to pad out the initial sequence where Perry is reading off the DP headline.
And when Olsen says to Perry :
"You are late!"
.....there is a nice little allegretto in the que that corresponds with Perry's bemused reaction.
I think it fits in quite well and adds just a touch of emotional kintesism to the piece.
I then used the same Fortess Of Solitude que to reflect Lois's sussing out of who ol' mild manners really is.
Thau's transplantation of the "Next Day At The Daily Planet" que from the theatrical........for the Donner Cut when Lois is drawing on the Newspaper ,was kind of a strange choice.
That music was perfect in the theatrical because it had an air of despondancy to it.......as the camera zoomed away from Lois's apartement and then the quick cut to Clark arriving at the DP, hanging his hat up on the stand and then greeting an effectively hung over Lois in her office.
But that same music does not jive well for the Donner Cut scene where Lois is making an amazing discovery as she deciphers Clark's identity.
The music needed a sense of wonder, discovery and even a moderate hint of cynism as Lois cracks the code.......and the intro to the Fortress Of Solitude music is an uncanningly perfect fit.
Anyways.....enjoy .........or not!
I do think that it shows the potential that Thau failed to exploit with the beautiful music he had at his disposal.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 21, 2022 17:24:00 GMT -5
Can't let this thing go!......I can see how Selutron got addicted!
Using alternative takes and rehearsal footage extracted from various making of documentaries, here is an attempt to add extra coverage to pertinant sections of the Daily Planet sequence at the beginning of Donner's SII.
The additional coverage provides a little bit more dynamism to the dialogue exchanges and the supplementation of different musical ques and motifs accentuates the drama a little bit more.
Due to the quality of the source material and computational limitation of my resources there are skipped frame rates and syncronisation issues with the audio.
This is intended as a rough guide only with the objective of showing the latent potential within the footage as shot by Donner.
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Post by atp on Jul 21, 2022 17:48:55 GMT -5
Can't let this thing go!......I can see how Selutron got addicted! Using alternative takes and rehearsal footage extracted from various making of documentaries, here is an attempt to add extra coverage to pertinant sections of the Daily Planet sequence at the beginning of Donner's SII. The additional coverage provides a little bit more dynamism to the dialogue exchanges and the supplementation of different musical ques and motifs accentuates the drama a little bit more. Due to the quality of the source material and computational limitation of my resources there are skipped frame rates and syncronisation issues with the audio. This is intended as a rough guide only with the objective of showing the latent potential within the footage as shot by Donner. I just heard from Selutron. He wants you to stop attempting to make these edits. Only professional editors should be making fan edits of Superman 2. So you are required to either show membership in a recognised editors' guild,or to cease and desist from making any other fan edits. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 21, 2022 18:03:47 GMT -5
atpLol! Now I am off to meet Mr Stuart Baird and various big wigs at WB with my pitch on how SII can be redited! I will not be allowed to divulge any details of said meeting to the fandom 
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 22, 2022 0:13:25 GMT -5
Can't let this thing go!......I can see how Selutron got addicted! Using alternative takes and rehearsal footage extracted from various making of documentaries, here is an attempt to add extra coverage to pertinant sections of the Daily Planet sequence at the beginning of Donner's SII. The additional coverage provides a little bit more dynamism to the dialogue exchanges and the supplementation of different musical ques and motifs accentuates the drama a little bit more. Due to the quality of the source material and computational limitation of my resources there are skipped frame rates and syncronisation issues with the audio. This is intended as a rough guide only with the objective of showing the latent potential within the footage as shot by Donner. I'm very glad we got the DP footage, but feel like Thau left a lot on the table- but with each piece of film chosen, there might have also been a restoration cost attached, and it just feels like more and more that the budget was around 45 cents for the Donner cut. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 22, 2022 8:40:33 GMT -5
You folks are probably getting tired of me playing around with that Daily Planet sequence.....I think I have an obsession!
Anyways , I did some nips and tucks, improved the audio syncronisation and the quality of the resolution.
As CAM insinuates...... really do wish we could have seen the other takes and angles that Donner covered this scene with.
Enjoy....or not!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 22, 2022 19:57:57 GMT -5
You folks are probably getting tired of me playing around with that Daily Planet sequence.....I think I have an obsession! Anyways , I did some nips and tucks, improved the audio syncronisation and the quality of the resolution. As CAM insinuates...... really do wish we could have seen the other takes and angles that Donner covered this scene with. Enjoy....or not! Enjoying your obsession! I did my own version that I can share later on, for fun sake. The 'behind the scenes' medium shots of part of the same conversation with Lois/Clark/Perry were fun to see. For sure, Bairds' rhythyms were far different than Thau's.... but, again, we have no idea on some sequences what was available to him. But, still.... the final RDC as cut didn't make anything look very good... |
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Post by dejan on Jul 23, 2022 11:37:54 GMT -5
@cam Thanks man. By all means share at your discretion In terms of what Donner shot back in the day.......and what survived to arrive in Thau's hands , 30 years later will always remain a mystery. We do know that over a million feet of film was shot with only a fraction of it being used for the final theatrical or extended versions of STM and Donner's SII. Like the Titanic , some parts of the wreck(film) are buried too far inside a vault or reels to ever see the light of day again! Many (bad/goofs)takes were never even printed ways back then , and therefore remained in negative form only.....with no corresponding interpositive to back them up. I am sure there are some gems hidden deep inside! With regards to the SII DP sequence.....in the making of documentary there is a moment where we can see Donner rehearse the part where Lois opens the newspaper in Clark's face.......but with the camera FACING Reeve! Goto 5:55 in video below: According to Petrou, Baird had a whopping 18 editorial/editors assistants! It looks like Thau only had one!. It could be that because Thau was scanning everything digitally that after the fact, he only required moderate help........wheras Baird and his team would have been working with reel upon reel of 35mm neg or positives. I had another bash at the Lois/Olsen exchange and used different croppings and zooms to add emphasis and the odd bit of kinetics to the piece: Think I should start a new petition.......release all the outakes and coverage of The Donner Daily Planet opening sequence! Lol!!! |
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