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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 18, 2022 18:03:01 GMT -5
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Post by Kamdan on Sept 19, 2022 7:49:16 GMT -5
Feige has got it pretty easy with Disney just leaving him up to his devices. Warners wants to get too involved in their DC properties so they can claim credit for their successes (if any).
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atp
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Post by atp on Sept 19, 2022 8:17:20 GMT -5
I want Mr Thau to be in charge.
MoS would have been better if he had made it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 19, 2022 12:03:58 GMT -5
Feige has got it pretty easy with Disney just leaving him up to his devices. Warners wants to get too involved in their DC properties so they can claim credit for their successes (if any). I wonder if Feige's just getting in over his head with the amount of product planned for tv and movies--- frankly, the quality is dipping like crazy- I wonder if part of it is not being able to get good enough tv showrunners to keep the writing quality up to snuff --- or --- if the schedule is just WAYYYY too fast for streaming that nobody could adapt fast enough for these Marvel tv shows that are getting worse and worse... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 19, 2022 16:33:41 GMT -5
Feige has got it pretty easy with Disney just leaving him up to his devices. Warners wants to get too involved in their DC properties so they can claim credit for their successes (if any). I wonder if Feige's just getting in over his head with the amount of product planned for tv and movies--- frankly, the quality is dipping like crazy- I wonder if part of it is not being able to get good enough tv showrunners to keep the writing quality up to snuff --- or --- if the schedule is just WAYYYY too fast for streaming that nobody could adapt fast enough for these Marvel tv shows that are getting worse and worse... “Dipping like crazy” is an exaggeration don’t you think? I know some people online like to say stuff like that to make a better show or article but that doesn’t make it true. Lots of people seem to only remember the highs and conveniently forget the lows of Marvel studios when trying to make that case. They also forget Marvel built up to something in the first three phases. Now they’re in a rebuilding phase and people need to get that before they start declaring doom and gloom for Marvel studios. Part of the problem also comes with the amount of product they’re putting out mostly on the streaming side. Feige has to delegate more which means not everything gets his attention like it used to. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 19, 2022 16:55:37 GMT -5
Feige has got it pretty easy with Disney just leaving him up to his devices. Warners wants to get too involved in their DC properties so they can claim credit for their successes (if any). Kevin Feige didn’t always have free run of Marvel Studios though and even if he did I’d hardly call what he’s done easy. If it was everyone else would be doing it. What he had was less interference but that only came after a certain point. He had to deal with a lot of restrictions for years even after Marvel became part of Disney. They didn’t come from Disney higher ups in the past but from Ike Perlmutter. After Feige circumvented Perlmutter and only had to answer directly to Bob Iger and Alan Horn then he had more freedom to do what he wanted. But now that’s been curbed somewhat by Bob Chapek. Feige still has plenty of control but it’s not like it was under Iger. Despite all that Feige did what he did not only because of freedom but because he had a vision. He understood the material enough and had enough producing experience to implement that vision. The problems finding a person to run a potential DC Film studio go beyond just creative freedom. Feige got to where he was under very specific circumstances. Even if WBD somehow miraculously found the right person and gave them the freedom to run the DC studio how they saw fit that person might have to take a pay cut. With all their debt WBD is in cost saving mode so they’re trying to spend less not more. DC is also seen as a tarnished brand despite all the obvious potential. They’re a distant number two beyond Marvel studios. That means it’s an uphill battle and if they don’t get immediate results they may get the blame wether it’s all their fault or not. When you look all the truly talented candidates… who would want the position? It would be a thankless job and most of the people who could do it know that. Most importantly they’re good enough that they don’t need the gig and can make more money and probably get more acclaim elsewhere. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 19, 2022 22:19:24 GMT -5
I wonder if Feige's just getting in over his head with the amount of product planned for tv and movies--- frankly, the quality is dipping like crazy- I wonder if part of it is not being able to get good enough tv showrunners to keep the writing quality up to snuff --- or --- if the schedule is just WAYYYY too fast for streaming that nobody could adapt fast enough for these Marvel tv shows that are getting worse and worse... “Dipping like crazy” is an exaggeration don’t you think? I know some people online like to say stuff like that to make a better show or article but that doesn’t make it true. Lots of people seem to only remember the highs and conveniently forget the lows of Marvel studios when trying to make that case. They also forget Marvel built up to something in the first three phases. Now they’re in a rebuilding phase and people need to get that before they start declaring doom and gloom for Marvel studios. Part of the problem also comes with the amount of product they’re putting out mostly on the streaming side. Feige has to delegate more which means not everything gets his attention like it used to. I'm gleaning it from a few different clues on the dip in quality- First- How I feel about the product as it's been coming out- _ Wandavision was the best and a showstopper, with the last episode being crunched not their fault, as covid forced 2 episodes into one... - Winter Soldier started off REALLY strong... part of it was covid, but part of it was sheer annoyance at how the most interesting villain (a twisted version of Captain America) got a slap on the wrist and everyone is happy to just bygones be bygones... but I still liked some of the better character bits (Sam coming to terms with accepting the mantle, Bucky coming to terms with his killings and redemption). - Loki also started off GREAT- usurping expectations- then, fairly soon, everything shown is apparently setup and retconned... jury is still out- but didn't stick the landing- - Then Hawkeye was okay... then by the last act - with Echo's easy forgiveness of Hawkeye and Yelena's "Why did you say 'Martha'  ' moment with Hawkeye over Black Widow--- just wanted to vomit. - Moon Knight started off GREAT- then an interview with Oscar Isaac spoke about how they presented him with the script to the first and next to last episode... but they hadn't written the rest and had to go into production soon--- NOT a good sign. Same deal--- a mess by the end with great parts scattered. - Ms. Marvel was okay, but felt like a Nickelodeon Marvel show. Nothing per se bad, but wasn't something I would subscribe to Disney Plus for just that. - Now there's She-Hulk- that's neither funny enough nor superhero enough... and both She-Hulk and Thor 4 seem like they're taking things a little TOO silly- Process wise, it also doesn't give much hope: in an interview with the showrunner, she said that she was promised 'x' amount of money for the show- then halfway through was told it changed, and had to keep having She-Hulk as CGI less and less in the show... I totally agree that it could just be that Feige is being asked for too much content wayyy too fast.... but in hearing how the Star Trek: Next Gen production was- where scripts had to be also turned around fast and production pretty much non-stop for 22 episodes a season... SOMETHING isn't being planned or done right over there. Is Feige handing it over to showrunners who aren't able to adapt? Is the problem a changing budget? I agree that the movies were not all great in the early phases, but I attribute that to what you mentioned.... Feige under the thumb of Permutter. But- it all built to big Avenger films that were mostly fantastic. Right now.... it feels a lot sloppier in pieces and as an overall universe that doesn't feel like it meshes at all, Spiderman No Way Home/Dr.Strange 2 being the exception. I hope it improves and comes together better soon, like I felt the earlier phases had. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 20, 2022 13:08:40 GMT -5
“Dipping like crazy” is an exaggeration don’t you think? I know some people online like to say stuff like that to make a better show or article but that doesn’t make it true. Lots of people seem to only remember the highs and conveniently forget the lows of Marvel studios when trying to make that case. They also forget Marvel built up to something in the first three phases. Now they’re in a rebuilding phase and people need to get that before they start declaring doom and gloom for Marvel studios. Part of the problem also comes with the amount of product they’re putting out mostly on the streaming side. Feige has to delegate more which means not everything gets his attention like it used to. I'm gleaning it from a few different clues on the dip in quality- First- How I feel about the product as it's been coming out- _ Wandavision was the best and a showstopper, with the last episode being crunched not their fault, as covid forced 2 episodes into one... - Winter Soldier started off REALLY strong... part of it was covid, but part of it was sheer annoyance at how the most interesting villain (a twisted version of Captain America) got a slap on the wrist and everyone is happy to just bygones be bygones... but I still liked some of the better character bits (Sam coming to terms with accepting the mantle, Bucky coming to terms with his killings and redemption). - Loki also started off GREAT- usurping expectations- then, fairly soon, everything shown is apparently setup and retconned... jury is still out- but didn't stick the landing- - Then Hawkeye was okay... then by the last act - with Echo's easy forgiveness of Hawkeye and Yelena's "Why did you say 'Martha' ' moment with Hawkeye over Black Widow--- just wanted to vomit. - Moon Knight started off GREAT- then an interview with Oscar Isaac spoke about how they presented him with the script to the first and next to last episode... but they hadn't written the rest and had to go into production soon--- NOT a good sign. Same deal--- a mess by the end with great parts scattered. - Ms. Marvel was okay, but felt like a Nickelodeon Marvel show. Nothing per se bad, but wasn't something I would subscribe to Disney Plus for just that. - Now there's She-Hulk- that's neither funny enough nor superhero enough... and both She-Hulk and Thor 4 seem like they're taking things a little TOO silly- Process wise, it also doesn't give much hope: in an interview with the showrunner, she said that she was promised 'x' amount of money for the show- then halfway through was told it changed, and had to keep having She-Hulk as CGI less and less in the show... I totally agree that it could just be that Feige is being asked for too much content wayyy too fast.... but in hearing how the Star Trek: Next Gen production was- where scripts had to be also turned around fast and production pretty much non-stop for 22 episodes a season... SOMETHING isn't being planned or done right over there. Is Feige handing it over to showrunners who aren't able to adapt? Is the problem a changing budget? I agree that the movies were not all great in the early phases, but I attribute that to what you mentioned.... Feige under the thumb of Permutter. But- it all built to big Avenger films that were mostly fantastic. Right now.... it feels a lot sloppier in pieces and as an overall universe that doesn't feel like it meshes at all, Spiderman No Way Home/Dr.Strange 2 being the exception. I hope it improves and comes together better soon, like I felt the earlier phases had. Again like I said though Marvels film track record has never been perfect. You’re comparing a phase 4 that’s had many more projects, streaming shows AND films, to previous phases that were just a handful of films. That’s not really a fair comparison or even an apples to apples comparison. There’s more product so of course that means more opportunities for it all to not be as good. On the film side the quality has been comparable to phases of the past. If Marvel Studios had always been doing three or four films a year PLUS four streaming shows a year you might be on to something but that’s not how it is. Even then the MCU has had plenty of films that people thought were lesser efforts. How many people have called Captain Marvel overrated or felt the Ant-Man films weren’t worth watching or thought GOTG volume 2 was a step down from the first? The step down in quality hasn’t been as steep as some people would have you believe. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 20, 2022 22:14:45 GMT -5
I'm gleaning it from a few different clues on the dip in quality- First- How I feel about the product as it's been coming out- _ Wandavision was the best and a showstopper, with the last episode being crunched not their fault, as covid forced 2 episodes into one... - Winter Soldier started off REALLY strong... part of it was covid, but part of it was sheer annoyance at how the most interesting villain (a twisted version of Captain America) got a slap on the wrist and everyone is happy to just bygones be bygones... but I still liked some of the better character bits (Sam coming to terms with accepting the mantle, Bucky coming to terms with his killings and redemption). - Loki also started off GREAT- usurping expectations- then, fairly soon, everything shown is apparently setup and retconned... jury is still out- but didn't stick the landing- - Then Hawkeye was okay... then by the last act - with Echo's easy forgiveness of Hawkeye and Yelena's "Why did you say 'Martha' ' moment with Hawkeye over Black Widow--- just wanted to vomit. - Moon Knight started off GREAT- then an interview with Oscar Isaac spoke about how they presented him with the script to the first and next to last episode... but they hadn't written the rest and had to go into production soon--- NOT a good sign. Same deal--- a mess by the end with great parts scattered. - Ms. Marvel was okay, but felt like a Nickelodeon Marvel show. Nothing per se bad, but wasn't something I would subscribe to Disney Plus for just that. - Now there's She-Hulk- that's neither funny enough nor superhero enough... and both She-Hulk and Thor 4 seem like they're taking things a little TOO silly- Process wise, it also doesn't give much hope: in an interview with the showrunner, she said that she was promised 'x' amount of money for the show- then halfway through was told it changed, and had to keep having She-Hulk as CGI less and less in the show... I totally agree that it could just be that Feige is being asked for too much content wayyy too fast.... but in hearing how the Star Trek: Next Gen production was- where scripts had to be also turned around fast and production pretty much non-stop for 22 episodes a season... SOMETHING isn't being planned or done right over there. Is Feige handing it over to showrunners who aren't able to adapt? Is the problem a changing budget? I agree that the movies were not all great in the early phases, but I attribute that to what you mentioned.... Feige under the thumb of Permutter. But- it all built to big Avenger films that were mostly fantastic. Right now.... it feels a lot sloppier in pieces and as an overall universe that doesn't feel like it meshes at all, Spiderman No Way Home/Dr.Strange 2 being the exception. I hope it improves and comes together better soon, like I felt the earlier phases had. Again like I said though Marvels film track record has never been perfect. You’re comparing a phase 4 that’s had many more projects, streaming shows AND films, to previous phases that were just a handful of films. That’s not really a fair comparison or even an apples to apples comparison. There’s more product so of course that means more opportunities for it all to not be as good. On the film side the quality has been comparable to phases of the past. If Marvel Studios had always been doing three or four films a year PLUS four streaming shows a year you might be on to something but that’s not how it is. Even then the MCU has had plenty of films that people thought were lesser efforts. How many people have called Captain Marvel overrated or felt the Ant-Man films weren’t worth watching or thought GOTG volume 2 was a step down from the first? The step down in quality hasn’t been as steep as some people would have you believe. I think the thing is: from reading (and maybe over-reading) endless bits on all the Trek tv shows & Buffy shows & seeing how much quality was done by many great tv writers there--- I think the thing is- a lot of the 'saving' seemed/seems to come down to one thing: a great fast showrunner/writer who knew how to recognize and fix problems fast. Earlier on in the MCU, I remember it was said (I forget who) that Joss Whedon got a chance to have movie scripts go through his hands- now, how much- who knows? But based on the quality of his shows where little to no interference- the quantity and quality and speed--- Someone who knows how to find problems in scripts and fix those problems fast I imagine is the best showrunner.... Feige might have great taste and ideas and instincts- but I don't think he's a screenwriter doctor- and perhaps that's where many of the tv shows and movies could have been fixed (or at least improved). The other side of showrunning - the production side and guiding vision for the whole slate of movies/tv - may be fantastic.... but my main issue is the letdown of the story and characters in final parts of many of these shows. It's of course all opinion, but here's my non-scientific and totally biased rough rating/view of the quality of the movies in each of the phases: (On a scale of 1-10, 10 as the highest) PHASE 1: Iron Man- 9 Incredible Hulk- 8 Iron Man #2- 4 Thor- 7 Captain America- 8 The Avengers- 9 (4 out of 6 movies as 8+) PHASE 2: Iron Man #3- 7 Thor #2- 5 Captain America: Winter Soldier- 8 Guardians of the Galaxy- 9 Avengers: Age of Ultron- 8 Ant-Man- 6 (3 out of 6 movies- 8+) PHASE 3: Captain America-Civil War- 9 Doctor Strange- 8 Guardians of the Galaxy 2- 7 Spiderman: Homecoming- 8 Thor Ragnarok: - 10 Black Panther: - 9 Avengers- Infinity War- 8 Antman & Wasp- 7 Captain Marvel- 5 Avengers Endgame- 10 Spiderman-Far From Home- 7 (7 out of 11 films 8+) PHASE 4- Black Widow- 7 Shang-Chi- 7 Eternals- 7 Dr. Strange: Multiverse of Madness- 8 Spiderman: No Way Home- 10 Thor: Love and Thunder- 7 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever--- n/a (2 out of 6 as 8+) MARVEL DISNEY PLUS SHOWS: Wandavision- 10 Falcon and the Winter Soldier- 7 Loki- 8 What If?- 7 Hawkeye- 5 Moon Knight- 5 Ms Marvel- 7 She-Hulk- 2 (2 shows out of 8 as 8+ rating) Again, this is non-scientific and totally my bias.... but with so many years of comic stories to draw upon.... why couldn't these be better shows? And I put it to the writing --- and if the schedule is too tight, then having super-star script doctor as showrunner is my thought-- Maybe there's more involved, I admit I don't work in Hwood and it's all speculation, but that's my feelings on it thus far... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 21, 2022 15:57:21 GMT -5
Again like I said though Marvels film track record has never been perfect. You’re comparing a phase 4 that’s had many more projects, streaming shows AND films, to previous phases that were just a handful of films. That’s not really a fair comparison or even an apples to apples comparison. There’s more product so of course that means more opportunities for it all to not be as good. On the film side the quality has been comparable to phases of the past. If Marvel Studios had always been doing three or four films a year PLUS four streaming shows a year you might be on to something but that’s not how it is. Even then the MCU has had plenty of films that people thought were lesser efforts. How many people have called Captain Marvel overrated or felt the Ant-Man films weren’t worth watching or thought GOTG volume 2 was a step down from the first? The step down in quality hasn’t been as steep as some people would have you believe. I think the thing is: from reading (and maybe over-reading) endless bits on all the Trek tv shows & Buffy shows & seeing how much quality was done by many great tv writers there--- I think the thing is- a lot of the 'saving' seemed/seems to come down to one thing: a great fast showrunner/writer who knew how to recognize and fix problems fast. Earlier on in the MCU, I remember it was said (I forget who) that Joss Whedon got a chance to have movie scripts go through his hands- now, how much- who knows? But based on the quality of his shows where little to no interference- the quantity and quality and speed--- Someone who knows how to find problems in scripts and fix those problems fast I imagine is the best showrunner.... Feige might have great taste and ideas and instincts- but I don't think he's a screenwriter doctor- and perhaps that's where many of the tv shows and movies could have been fixed (or at least improved). The other side of showrunning - the production side and guiding vision for the whole slate of movies/tv - may be fantastic.... but my main issue is the letdown of the story and characters in final parts of many of these shows. It's of course all opinion, but here's my non-scientific and totally biased rough rating/view of the quality of the movies in each of the phases: (On a scale of 1-10, 10 as the highest) PHASE 1: Iron Man- 9 Incredible Hulk- 8 Iron Man #2- 4 Thor- 7 Captain America- 8 The Avengers- 9 (4 out of 6 movies as 8+) PHASE 2: Iron Man #3- 7 Thor #2- 5 Captain America: Winter Soldier- 8 Guardians of the Galaxy- 9 Avengers: Age of Ultron- 8 Ant-Man- 6 (3 out of 6 movies- 8+) PHASE 3: Captain America-Civil War- 9 Doctor Strange- 8 Guardians of the Galaxy 2- 7 Spiderman: Homecoming- 8 Thor Ragnarok: - 10 Black Panther: - 9 Avengers- Infinity War- 8 Antman & Wasp- 7 Captain Marvel- 5 Avengers Endgame- 10 Spiderman-Far From Home- 7 (7 out of 11 films 8+) PHASE 4- Black Widow- 7 Shang-Chi- 7 Eternals- 7 Dr. Strange: Multiverse of Madness- 8 Spiderman: No Way Home- 10 Thor: Love and Thunder- 7 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever--- n/a (2 out of 6 as 8+) MARVEL DISNEY PLUS SHOWS: Wandavision- 10 Falcon and the Winter Soldier- 7 Loki- 8 What If?- 7 Hawkeye- 5 Moon Knight- 5 Ms Marvel- 7 She-Hulk- 2 (2 shows out of 8 as 8+ rating) Again, this is non-scientific and totally my bias.... but with so many years of comic stories to draw upon.... why couldn't these be better shows? And I put it to the writing --- and if the schedule is too tight, then having super-star script doctor as showrunner is my thought-- Maybe there's more involved, I admit I don't work in Hwood and it's all speculation, but that's my feelings on it thus far... A lot of our memories of past shows is through rose colored glasses. Whedon had some great shows but the some of the ones that actually lasted a while saw a decline in quality. Buffy didn’t stay consistently good at the same level. You could argue Angel did. Dollhouse and Firefly didn’t even last long enough to see a decline. They’re great shows but also mostly original IP’s. Whedon and his writers didn’t have to work within an existing creative framework nor deal with such massive existing continuity because the franchise was so big. That’s a freedom the MCU doesn’t have as much of. That’s one key difference. Also Whedon worked to launch agents or shield and then let his brother and sister in law take over but even from the begging the show was very uneven. Some of his other people worked on the show too. Whedon’s touch couldn’t make that great all the time. Trek is a more apt comparison but they still had more freedom because as big as Trek was in the 90s the franchise wasn’t as big as the MCU, the lore wasn’t as extensive, there was no preexisting source material, and they weren’t creating as much content. Despite all that Trek did see a decline in quality. It’s not really fair to hold up the good form that era of Trek for comparison and conveniently leave out the bad. How many truly GREAT characters did Voyager or Enterprise have? How many truly great stories? I’d argue even the best TNG movies weren’t EVER as good as the best MCU films and while TNG and DS9 were brilliant shows (eventually but not at first which we seem to forget) Voyager and Enterprise weren’t. The Star Trek franchise faced some of the same problems the MCU is facing now. The weight of the size of the the franchise and lore becoming a burden and Trek expanding too much too soon until finally it all collapsed and the Berman era ended. As for the idea of having comic stories to draw on…comics aren’t movies or tv. They are different mediums. What works in one may not work in the other. That’s what adaptation is for. The comics are a starting point but in the end it’s all about execution. Comic stories can give good ideas and inspiration but making it work for the screen still takes skill. Just adapting the comics directly doesn’t guarantee the films will be good either. Superhero films have done that for 20 years and some have still been crap. Sometimes the films and tv shows have better ideas than the comics and comics even adapt those ideas and discard their own. It’s all about the execution and quality of the work and that’s beyond the quality of the source material. It takes talent and skill no matter what. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 22, 2022 1:33:43 GMT -5
I've obsessed on the behind the scenes on showrunners- so for me it's not rose colored as much as keeping ears glued on why this/that failed to deliver on certain shows where I could. At the time I glommed onto every commentary and every shred of writing interview possible during the Buffy/Angel era.
I have been able to get some info on some seasons more than others- and some shows more than others, that have sounded plausible to me.... but, again, I put the caveat out that I don't work in Hwood so I fully admit I could be wrong or trusting too much on interviews I've read with writers I've wanted to trust.
Buffy's seasons to me were consistent- until he had left the one season where he handed the reins over on showrunning to work on other projects. It was NOTICEABLE. When he came back to the final season, it was also noticeable.
Angel's start was rocky until the second season where things started to come together- but then kind of fell apart storywise at the time Carpenter became pregnant. In interviews, Whedon lost it, saying she had ruined a whole season of scripts because of her being pregnant (which is a way overreaction- he could have recast presumably if that was the case)... still- I'm still very impressed when revisiting the episodes as a whole, but the seasons were not (imo) even close to how disappointed I was with the majority of the Marvel shows- but, again, this is how I feel about the writing.
The subsequent shows: Firefly and Dollhouse- Firefly I thought decent, Dollhouse's mess was pointed out by Whedon as the network first saying they wanted this type of show, then a wholly different show once it got started, and that sounded plausible to create a mess. When he talked about working for Marvel, he said he had a bigger sense of relief because even if they disagreed- what Marvel expected didn't change overnight, like Dollhouse.
Star Trek: Next Gen & Deep Space Nine long credit the showrunners. There was a 4-part interview with Ronald D. Moore that talked about why he felt (once they got to season 3 of Next Gen and DS9) the shows were hitting their stride and the politics involved with dstroying the initially promising Voyager series.
But- it's not just Trek and DS9. There are other comedic and dramatic shows that have had solid runs sometimes from the start. I admit I'm not the one working on these Marvel shows, so I don't know all the ins/outs of the problems they have or restrictions- but I just hope they all get better (to me) whatever the solution is. If others are happy with the shows as they are, that's fine.... this is just how I feel about them.
Perhaps season twos will be better- I hope so.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 22, 2022 8:49:31 GMT -5
I've obsessed on the behind the scenes on showrunners- so for me it's not rose colored as much as keeping ears glued on why this/that failed to deliver on certain shows where I could. At the time I glommed onto every commentary and every shred of writing interview possible during the Buffy/Angel era. I have been able to get some info on some seasons more than others- and some shows more than others, that have sounded plausible to me.... but, again, I put the caveat out that I don't work in Hwood so I fully admit I could be wrong or trusting too much on interviews I've read with writers I've wanted to trust. Buffy's seasons to me were consistent- until he had left the one season where he handed the reins over on showrunning to work on other projects. It was NOTICEABLE. When he came back to the final season, it was also noticeable. Angel's start was rocky until the second season where things started to come together- but then kind of fell apart storywise at the time Carpenter became pregnant. In interviews, Whedon lost it, saying she had ruined a whole season of scripts because of her being pregnant (which is a way overreaction- he could have recast presumably if that was the case)... still- I'm still very impressed when revisiting the episodes as a whole, but the seasons were not (imo) even close to how disappointed I was with the majority of the Marvel shows- but, again, this is how I feel about the writing. The subsequent shows: Firefly and Dollhouse- Firefly I thought decent, Dollhouse's mess was pointed out by Whedon as the network first saying they wanted this type of show, then a wholly different show once it got started, and that sounded plausible to create a mess. When he talked about working for Marvel, he said he had a bigger sense of relief because even if they disagreed- what Marvel expected didn't change overnight, like Dollhouse. Star Trek: Next Gen & Deep Space Nine long credit the showrunners. There was a 4-part interview with Ronald D. Moore that talked about why he felt (once they got to season 3 of Next Gen and DS9) the shows were hitting their stride and the politics involved with dstroying the initially promising Voyager series. But- it's not just Trek and DS9. There are other comedic and dramatic shows that have had solid runs sometimes from the start. I admit I'm not the one working on these Marvel shows, so I don't know all the ins/outs of the problems they have or restrictions- but I just hope they all get better (to me) whatever the solution is. If others are happy with the shows as they are, that's fine.... this is just how I feel about them. Perhaps season twos will be better- I hope so. It’s rose colored if you leave out certain elements of how the shows were throughout their runs. All the shows you listed had some of the same issues as the Marvel studios shows and only some of them have reached any kind of consensus of being consistently great. Again, Buffy wasn’t consistently good though. Especially when it moved to UPN. Thats why a lot of people felt that by the end Angel was the better show. Whedon’s other shows didn’t have nearly the same success. You could argue that Firefly was never given a chance by Fox but Dollhouse was yet it never really caught on. Agents of Shield was another Mutant Enemy show that never really was consistently great. Whedon got it off the ground and then let his brother Jed take over. Season 4 is arguably the best season of the show. TNG got better with season 3 because Maurice Hurley left and Michael Piller became showrunner. Roddenberry was also less and less involved because of his declining health and to be honest Gene held the show back. The introduction of the Borg as a new primary antagonist didn’t hurt either. But even that show declined after season 5. They couldn’t keep up the same level of quality because the show was running out of gas creatively. Seasons 6 and 7 weren’t as good. DS9 was rocky for the first few years because the show didn’t have a strong enough focus early on. They had the wormhole but they didn’t have a ship until much later. You could only send a handful of characters through it to explore new worlds. A space station is still stuck in the same place and that left things less dynamic and limited the kinds of stories they could tell just to what was in that part of space. Season 3 and the rise of the Dominion gave the show that kick it needed. It’s the one Trek show that got better and stayed that way. You could argue season 7 was a decline but not much of one. Voyagers biggest problems were that it was a network show and it had Bragga in charge. Jeri Taylor wasn’t as good as some other Trek writer/producers either. It was the first Trek network show since the animated series. That meant it was at the mercy of the network and their demands. TNG and DS9 were syndicated and had more leeway. Most of the characters were boring and weren’t given much strong standout material. When some of your stars like Robert Beltran OPENLY complain about that to the press while the show is still on there’s a problem. There was also some behind the scenes personal turmoil but it’s not the first time that’s happened with tv or specifically Star Trek. Enterprise was another Voyager only more dull. Just like Voyager it was full of mostly forgettable and uninteresting characters and rehashed archetypes that didn’t make enough of an impression on most of the audience. The show didn’t pick up until season 3 with the Xindj arc and season 4 when Manny Coto came on board but by then it was too late. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 22, 2022 14:12:26 GMT -5
I've obsessed on the behind the scenes on showrunners- so for me it's not rose colored as much as keeping ears glued on why this/that failed to deliver on certain shows where I could. At the time I glommed onto every commentary and every shred of writing interview possible during the Buffy/Angel era. I have been able to get some info on some seasons more than others- and some shows more than others, that have sounded plausible to me.... but, again, I put the caveat out that I don't work in Hwood so I fully admit I could be wrong or trusting too much on interviews I've read with writers I've wanted to trust. Buffy's seasons to me were consistent- until he had left the one season where he handed the reins over on showrunning to work on other projects. It was NOTICEABLE. When he came back to the final season, it was also noticeable. Angel's start was rocky until the second season where things started to come together- but then kind of fell apart storywise at the time Carpenter became pregnant. In interviews, Whedon lost it, saying she had ruined a whole season of scripts because of her being pregnant (which is a way overreaction- he could have recast presumably if that was the case)... still- I'm still very impressed when revisiting the episodes as a whole, but the seasons were not (imo) even close to how disappointed I was with the majority of the Marvel shows- but, again, this is how I feel about the writing. The subsequent shows: Firefly and Dollhouse- Firefly I thought decent, Dollhouse's mess was pointed out by Whedon as the network first saying they wanted this type of show, then a wholly different show once it got started, and that sounded plausible to create a mess. When he talked about working for Marvel, he said he had a bigger sense of relief because even if they disagreed- what Marvel expected didn't change overnight, like Dollhouse. Star Trek: Next Gen & Deep Space Nine long credit the showrunners. There was a 4-part interview with Ronald D. Moore that talked about why he felt (once they got to season 3 of Next Gen and DS9) the shows were hitting their stride and the politics involved with dstroying the initially promising Voyager series. But- it's not just Trek and DS9. There are other comedic and dramatic shows that have had solid runs sometimes from the start. I admit I'm not the one working on these Marvel shows, so I don't know all the ins/outs of the problems they have or restrictions- but I just hope they all get better (to me) whatever the solution is. If others are happy with the shows as they are, that's fine.... this is just how I feel about them. Perhaps season twos will be better- I hope so. It’s rose colored if you leave out certain elements of how the shows were throughout their runs. All the shows you listed had some of the same issues as the Marvel studios shows and only some of them have reached any kind of consensus of being consistently great. Again, Buffy wasn’t consistently good though. Especially when it moved to UPN. Thats why a lot of people felt that by the end Angel was the better show. Whedon’s other shows didn’t have nearly the same success. You could argue that Firefly was never given a chance by Fox but Dollhouse was yet it never really caught on. Agents of Shield was another Mutant Enemy show that never really was consistently great. Whedon got it off the ground and then let his brother Jed take over. Season 4 is arguably the best season of the show. TNG got better with season 3 because Maurice Hurley left and Michael Piller became showrunner. Roddenberry was also less and less involved because of his declining health and to be honest Gene held the show back. The introduction of the Borg as a new primary antagonist didn’t hurt either. But even that show declined after season 5. They couldn’t keep up the same level of quality because the show was running out of gas creatively. Seasons 6 and 7 weren’t as good. DS9 was rocky for the first few years because the show didn’t have a strong enough focus early on. They had the wormhole but they didn’t have a ship until much later. You could only send a handful of characters through it to explore new worlds. A space station is still stuck in the same place and that left things less dynamic and limited the kinds of stories they could tell just to what was in that part of space. Season 3 and the rise of the Dominion gave the show that kick it needed. It’s the one Trek show that got better and stayed that way. You could argue season 7 was a decline but not much of one. Voyagers biggest problems were that it was a network show and it had Bragga in charge. Jeri Taylor wasn’t as good as some other Trek writer/producers either. It was the first Trek network show since the animated series. That meant it was at the mercy of the network and their demands. TNG and DS9 were syndicated and had more leeway. Most of the characters were boring and weren’t given much strong standout material. When some of your stars like Robert Beltran OPENLY complain about that to the press while the show is still on there’s a problem. There was also some behind the scenes personal turmoil but it’s not the first time that’s happened with tv or specifically Star Trek. Enterprise was another Voyager only more dull. Just like Voyager it was full of mostly forgettable and uninteresting characters and rehashed archetypes that didn’t make enough of an impression on most of the audience. The show didn’t pick up until season 3 with the Xindj arc and season 4 when Manny Coto came on board but by then it was too late. I disagree on Buffy, outside of the one season where Whedon handed over the reigns. Even the least interesting Buffy seemed far stronger than some of these current Marvel shows' best efforts--- but it's a matter of taste and opinion. So, on that, let's have that rare point were we agree to disagree.  Speaking of which- I agree on most of the rest of your reply here with the Treks. Manny Coto definitely saved (to me) season 3-4.... I went from hating the show as the worst Trek to really being sad there wasn't a 5th. That Coto could take the ship over (literally) and steer it into being something interesting at that point shocked me. I put Coto on the same level as Moore. (Who also isn't perfect, but who is?) I never really considered Agents of Shield pure Whedon- he put others in charge is my understanding.... much like how a lot of Cameron produced items seems to underwhelm if he's not directing. THough- admittedly I hated half of the supporting characters as just too dull and I love Ming-Na, but I felt like it was a joke to think of her as Michecke Yeoh (especially when the real Michecke Yeoh was available) on that show. But I digress... regardless, I'll still check out each Marvel movie and tv show, but I hope I can get more enthused soon overall. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 22, 2022 15:04:44 GMT -5
It’s rose colored if you leave out certain elements of how the shows were throughout their runs. All the shows you listed had some of the same issues as the Marvel studios shows and only some of them have reached any kind of consensus of being consistently great. Again, Buffy wasn’t consistently good though. Especially when it moved to UPN. Thats why a lot of people felt that by the end Angel was the better show. Whedon’s other shows didn’t have nearly the same success. You could argue that Firefly was never given a chance by Fox but Dollhouse was yet it never really caught on. Agents of Shield was another Mutant Enemy show that never really was consistently great. Whedon got it off the ground and then let his brother Jed take over. Season 4 is arguably the best season of the show. TNG got better with season 3 because Maurice Hurley left and Michael Piller became showrunner. Roddenberry was also less and less involved because of his declining health and to be honest Gene held the show back. The introduction of the Borg as a new primary antagonist didn’t hurt either. But even that show declined after season 5. They couldn’t keep up the same level of quality because the show was running out of gas creatively. Seasons 6 and 7 weren’t as good. DS9 was rocky for the first few years because the show didn’t have a strong enough focus early on. They had the wormhole but they didn’t have a ship until much later. You could only send a handful of characters through it to explore new worlds. A space station is still stuck in the same place and that left things less dynamic and limited the kinds of stories they could tell just to what was in that part of space. Season 3 and the rise of the Dominion gave the show that kick it needed. It’s the one Trek show that got better and stayed that way. You could argue season 7 was a decline but not much of one. Voyagers biggest problems were that it was a network show and it had Bragga in charge. Jeri Taylor wasn’t as good as some other Trek writer/producers either. It was the first Trek network show since the animated series. That meant it was at the mercy of the network and their demands. TNG and DS9 were syndicated and had more leeway. Most of the characters were boring and weren’t given much strong standout material. When some of your stars like Robert Beltran OPENLY complain about that to the press while the show is still on there’s a problem. There was also some behind the scenes personal turmoil but it’s not the first time that’s happened with tv or specifically Star Trek. Enterprise was another Voyager only more dull. Just like Voyager it was full of mostly forgettable and uninteresting characters and rehashed archetypes that didn’t make enough of an impression on most of the audience. The show didn’t pick up until season 3 with the Xindj arc and season 4 when Manny Coto came on board but by then it was too late. I disagree on Buffy, outside of the one season where Whedon handed over the reigns. Even the least interesting Buffy seemed far stronger than some of these current Marvel shows' best efforts--- but it's a matter of taste and opinion. So, on that, let's have that rare point were we agree to disagree. Speaking of which- I agree on most of the rest of your reply here with the Treks. Manny Coto definitely saved (to me) season 3-4.... I went from hating the show as the worst Trek to really being sad there wasn't a 5th. That Coto could take the ship over (literally) and steer it into being something interesting at that point shocked me. I put Coto on the same level as Moore. (Who also isn't perfect, but who is?) I never really considered Agents of Shield pure Whedon- he put others in charge is my understanding.... much like how a lot of Cameron produced items seems to underwhelm if he's not directing. THough- admittedly I hated half of the supporting characters as just too dull and I love Ming-Na, but I felt like it was a joke to think of her as Michecke Yeoh (especially when the real Michecke Yeoh was available) on that show. But I digress... regardless, I'll still check out each Marvel movie and tv show, but I hope I can get more enthused soon overall. As far as Buffy…not really. Those last couple of seasons had their issues and it showed with how well the show was received on UPN. The show was passable but I wouldn’t say it was anything special by the end. Those early seasons were getting a lot of attention for a reason and that’s when it really made its biggest pop culture impact. Season 3 of Enterprise tried to go back to Treks roots of reflecting the real world. It didn’t always work but it least it gave the show a direction. Season 4 is when the show finally began to pay off on the idea that it was a prequel. It was drawing from and building up Trek lore by filling in blanks we’d never seen on screen. It got a little too fan service-y at times but at least it was finally getting to the point that they used to sell the show to the audience in the first place. Before that it usually just came off as another late Berman era Star Trek series. Agents of Shield was very much a Whedon show. He didn’t stick with it day to day but he developed it and handed it off to his team, people that he’d worked with before. It’s very much got the Whedon flavor. The flaws in the show went beyond him because it wasn’t his original idea and other people had the final say but it is what it is. He’s worked with stuff that wasn’t his before and it turned out far better. As for the cast of characters it suffered the same problems most modern shows do: they had trouble creating an interesting ensemble. It’s not easy under any circumstances but it seems to be particularly difficult to pull off now. I loved Ming Na Wen on the show. I don’t think they were trying to make her MicheIIe Yeoh specifically I think we just happened to have two Asian actresses around the same age of the same generation who started their careers at the same time. There are similarities there anyway. Ming Na Wen is more of what straight drama actress and less into action but even she’s been in action franchises since the mid 90s. Yeoh has done drama and action about equally. I think they leaned into that frosty Asian female fighter stereotype with Melinda May but that goes well beyond Yeoh or any one actress. Lucy Lui has sometimes been put in that same category. The difference is Yeoh has far more experience than most women in when it comes to martial arts, action, stunts, etc. but Ming Na Wen has still trained for years and done a serviceable job with those kinds of things. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 22, 2022 17:47:20 GMT -5
I disagree on Buffy, outside of the one season where Whedon handed over the reigns. Even the least interesting Buffy seemed far stronger than some of these current Marvel shows' best efforts--- but it's a matter of taste and opinion. So, on that, let's have that rare point were we agree to disagree. Speaking of which- I agree on most of the rest of your reply here with the Treks. Manny Coto definitely saved (to me) season 3-4.... I went from hating the show as the worst Trek to really being sad there wasn't a 5th. That Coto could take the ship over (literally) and steer it into being something interesting at that point shocked me. I put Coto on the same level as Moore. (Who also isn't perfect, but who is?) I never really considered Agents of Shield pure Whedon- he put others in charge is my understanding.... much like how a lot of Cameron produced items seems to underwhelm if he's not directing. THough- admittedly I hated half of the supporting characters as just too dull and I love Ming-Na, but I felt like it was a joke to think of her as Michecke Yeoh (especially when the real Michecke Yeoh was available) on that show. But I digress... regardless, I'll still check out each Marvel movie and tv show, but I hope I can get more enthused soon overall. As far as Buffy…not really. Those last couple of seasons had their issues and it showed with how well the show was received on UPN. The show was passable but I wouldn’t say it was anything special by the end. Those early seasons were getting a lot of attention for a reason and that’s when it really made its biggest pop culture impact. Season 3 of Enterprise tried to go back to Treks roots of reflecting the real world. It didn’t always work but it least it gave the show a direction. Season 4 is when the show finally began to pay off on the idea that it was a prequel. It was drawing from and building up Trek lore by filling in blanks we’d never seen on screen. It got a little too fan service-y at times but at least it was finally getting to the point that they used to sell the show to the audience in the first place. Before that it usually just came off as another late Berman era Star Trek series. Agents of Shield was very much a Whedon show. He didn’t stick with it day to day but he developed it and handed it off to his team, people that he’d worked with before. It’s very much got the Whedon flavor. The flaws in the show went beyond him because it wasn’t his original idea and other people had the final say but it is what it is. He’s worked with stuff that wasn’t his before and it turned out far better. As for the cast of characters it suffered the same problems most modern shows do: they had trouble creating an interesting ensemble. It’s not easy under any circumstances but it seems to be particularly difficult to pull off now. I loved Ming Na Wen on the show. I don’t think they were trying to make her MicheIIe Yeoh specifically I think we just happened to have two Asian actresses around the same age of the same generation who started their careers at the same time. There are similarities there anyway. Ming Na Wen is more of what straight drama actress and less into action but even she’s been in action franchises since the mid 90s. Yeoh has done drama and action about equally. I think they leaned into that frosty Asian female fighter stereotype with Melinda May but that goes well beyond Yeoh or any one actress. Lucy Lui has sometimes been put in that same category. The difference is Yeoh has far more experience than most women in when it comes to martial arts, action, stunts, etc. but Ming Na Wen has still trained for years and done a serviceable job with those kinds of things. I have my feelings on seasons on shows. Can't argue feelings as it's all art. We reacted differently to the show... that's cool. Maybe let's leave it there. Ming Na Wen is a CHAARMING person.... who made me groan as the character that was supposed to be kickass as Melinda May.... but she worked for a lot of people, so, that's fine... but I just roll along with it if the story is satisfying enough. (I have a hard time believing Lucy Liu too.) There are a lot of other HK actresses who I thought would have been far more believable, but... who knows what the choices of actresses were- maybe she was the best out of available choices- but.... anyhow, I think she was misused on Agents of Shield and same in Book of Boba Fett- but, people love her, so, that's fine. We all have our different feelings on things and it's subjective anyhow. The Agents of Shield show- I agree, as you mentioned... part if it was beyond Whedon- for a time it seemed like they wanted it to have great continuity interweaving with the movies.... then it seemed to get to a point where it seemed better to just try to do their own thing, which I found very watchable. It's not a favorite but it also had a good number of things that were unfortunately working against it, it seemed by being overly ambitious when they were actually hamstrung... I was hoping it would be mind-blowing and more Steranko/Twin Peaks, rather than conventional with witty one-liners most of the time. Much like Arrow, I find it very watchable, but not a favorite and not that re-watchable. But it's more loved by others. Eh. ((On the flip side, I dare anyone to watch an episode of Iron Fist or Inhumans right before Agents of Shield and NOT call it the greatest thing since sliced bread if seeing them side by side.... but then again, root canal is better than Inhumans. )) (Though I'm so glad that Anson Mount got a chance to play Black Bolt in style in Dr. Strange 2). |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 22, 2022 20:57:14 GMT -5
As far as Buffy…not really. Those last couple of seasons had their issues and it showed with how well the show was received on UPN. The show was passable but I wouldn’t say it was anything special by the end. Those early seasons were getting a lot of attention for a reason and that’s when it really made its biggest pop culture impact. Season 3 of Enterprise tried to go back to Treks roots of reflecting the real world. It didn’t always work but it least it gave the show a direction. Season 4 is when the show finally began to pay off on the idea that it was a prequel. It was drawing from and building up Trek lore by filling in blanks we’d never seen on screen. It got a little too fan service-y at times but at least it was finally getting to the point that they used to sell the show to the audience in the first place. Before that it usually just came off as another late Berman era Star Trek series. Agents of Shield was very much a Whedon show. He didn’t stick with it day to day but he developed it and handed it off to his team, people that he’d worked with before. It’s very much got the Whedon flavor. The flaws in the show went beyond him because it wasn’t his original idea and other people had the final say but it is what it is. He’s worked with stuff that wasn’t his before and it turned out far better. As for the cast of characters it suffered the same problems most modern shows do: they had trouble creating an interesting ensemble. It’s not easy under any circumstances but it seems to be particularly difficult to pull off now. I loved Ming Na Wen on the show. I don’t think they were trying to make her MicheIIe Yeoh specifically I think we just happened to have two Asian actresses around the same age of the same generation who started their careers at the same time. There are similarities there anyway. Ming Na Wen is more of what straight drama actress and less into action but even she’s been in action franchises since the mid 90s. Yeoh has done drama and action about equally. I think they leaned into that frosty Asian female fighter stereotype with Melinda May but that goes well beyond Yeoh or any one actress. Lucy Lui has sometimes been put in that same category. The difference is Yeoh has far more experience than most women in when it comes to martial arts, action, stunts, etc. but Ming Na Wen has still trained for years and done a serviceable job with those kinds of things. I have my feelings on seasons on shows. Can't argue feelings as it's all art. We reacted differently to the show... that's cool. Maybe let's leave it there. Ming Na Wen is a CHAARMING person.... who made me groan as the character that was supposed to be kickass as Melinda May.... but she worked for a lot of people, so, that's fine... but I just roll along with it if the story is satisfying enough. (I have a hard time believing Lucy Liu too.) There are a lot of other HK actresses who I thought would have been far more believable, but... who knows what the choices of actresses were- maybe she was the best out of available choices- but.... anyhow, I think she was misused on Agents of Shield and same in Book of Boba Fett- but, people love her, so, that's fine. We all have our different feelings on things and it's subjective anyhow. The Agents of Shield show- I agree, as you mentioned... part if it was beyond Whedon- for a time it seemed like they wanted it to have great continuity interweaving with the movies.... then it seemed to get to a point where it seemed better to just try to do their own thing, which I found very watchable. It's not a favorite but it also had a good number of things that were unfortunately working against it, it seemed by being overly ambitious when they were actually hamstrung... I was hoping it would be mind-blowing and more Steranko/Twin Peaks, rather than conventional with witty one-liners most of the time. Much like Arrow, I find it very watchable, but not a favorite and not that re-watchable. But it's more loved by others. Eh. ((On the flip side, I dare anyone to watch an episode of Iron Fist or Inhumans right before Agents of Shield and NOT call it the greatest thing since sliced bread if seeing them side by side.... but then again, root canal is better than Inhumans. )) (Though I'm so glad that Anson Mount got a chance to play Black Bolt in style in Dr. Strange 2). I think Ming did a great job with a character that was often pretty stoic. They hired her more for her acting than her abilities as an action star. The action part can be handled more quickly than the acting in all kinds of ways. She also has tons of experience on series tv of various genres and you needed someone dependable like that on a series when the younger members of the cast were SO young and so inexperienced. I also think her being American raised and working in America so long made it easier for her than it would have been for a true Hong Kong actress with action experience. They would have had quite the adjustments to make and not a lot of time to do it. The problems with Book of Boba Fett were more down the the show. They had a lot of great talent that got let down with some poor material and questionable production quality across the board. Agents of Shield had a lot of support from the network but unfortunately Perlmutter, Loeb, and everyone else at a high level at Marvel Television were very inconsistent and seemed to not have a firm grasp on what they were doing. That’s how we got Iron Fist and Inhumans. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 23, 2022 2:30:49 GMT -5
The conception itself of Agents of Shield was pretty... meh. I thought initially it was a neat idea if it intertwined with the movie continuity- but it stalled out a lot having to wait for movies to figure out Shield, but have to keep going while being subservient to the theatrical department's choices--- But- second season was able to become interesting to me in spite of the limitations... but, again, not a favorite but if it's on, it's something that I do find watchable from season 2 on in particular, even if I wasn't crazy about 3/4ths of the characters. Personally, I think in seeing Ming Na in interviews and off-camera- both shows should have tweaked the scripts to make her character more like her in real life. The way her character was written definitely kind of buried her natural gifts and charm... but she's not the first actor that had a role that really didn't use to the best of their abilities. I think even if most might not agree with me on her being miscast, I think most might agree the character isn't nearly as charming as Ming's real-life persona. I kind of think of Agents of Shield in the same vein as Smallville- a show that had a lot of creative restrictions (it seems) from afar.... but in its best times, was probably as interesting as it could be under those restrictions and under what it was. To me, I loved the idea of Agent Coulson as the underdog-geek in the Avengers that was kind of a joke.... and I'd hoped that Agents of Shield was going to be a bit like Twin Peaks (during its more interesting times)- and be extremely quirky, weird, and offbeat... but, instead, it was mostly pretty conventional and at its best watchable and interesting enough tv. Anyhow- too much chat on a show I'm meh on. What were we talking about originally? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 25, 2022 10:39:31 GMT -5
The conception itself of Agents of Shield was pretty... meh. I thought initially it was a neat idea if it intertwined with the movie continuity- but it stalled out a lot having to wait for movies to figure out Shield, but have to keep going while being subservient to the theatrical department's choices--- But- second season was able to become interesting to me in spite of the limitations... but, again, not a favorite but if it's on, it's something that I do find watchable from season 2 on in particular, even if I wasn't crazy about 3/4ths of the characters. Personally, I think in seeing Ming Na in interviews and off-camera- both shows should have tweaked the scripts to make her character more like her in real life. The way her character was written definitely kind of buried her natural gifts and charm... but she's not the first actor that had a role that really didn't use to the best of their abilities. I think even if most might not agree with me on her being miscast, I think most might agree the character isn't nearly as charming as Ming's real-life persona. I kind of think of Agents of Shield in the same vein as Smallville- a show that had a lot of creative restrictions (it seems) from afar.... but in its best times, was probably as interesting as it could be under those restrictions and under what it was. To me, I loved the idea of Agent Coulson as the underdog-geek in the Avengers that was kind of a joke.... and I'd hoped that Agents of Shield was going to be a bit like Twin Peaks (during its more interesting times)- and be extremely quirky, weird, and offbeat... but, instead, it was mostly pretty conventional and at its best watchable and interesting enough tv. Anyhow- too much chat on a show I'm meh on. What were we talking about originally? I don’t think she was miscast the character itself was just a bit stereotypical. The frosty Asian badass. They had a reason for it but when May did open up emotionally Ming Na Wen Was great at it. Agents of Shield was caught in the middle of two sides behind the scenes that did not get along. Smallville was limited by decisions they movie side made but because it wasn’t connected to anything on the other side it wasn’t beholden to working itself around the movie sides plans the same way Agents of Shield was. AOS was at its best when they started to do their own thing on seasons 3 and 4. It was still limited but not nearly as much because the show had built its own identity. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 25, 2022 21:42:11 GMT -5
The conception itself of Agents of Shield was pretty... meh. I thought initially it was a neat idea if it intertwined with the movie continuity- but it stalled out a lot having to wait for movies to figure out Shield, but have to keep going while being subservient to the theatrical department's choices--- But- second season was able to become interesting to me in spite of the limitations... but, again, not a favorite but if it's on, it's something that I do find watchable from season 2 on in particular, even if I wasn't crazy about 3/4ths of the characters. Personally, I think in seeing Ming Na in interviews and off-camera- both shows should have tweaked the scripts to make her character more like her in real life. The way her character was written definitely kind of buried her natural gifts and charm... but she's not the first actor that had a role that really didn't use to the best of their abilities. I think even if most might not agree with me on her being miscast, I think most might agree the character isn't nearly as charming as Ming's real-life persona. I kind of think of Agents of Shield in the same vein as Smallville- a show that had a lot of creative restrictions (it seems) from afar.... but in its best times, was probably as interesting as it could be under those restrictions and under what it was. To me, I loved the idea of Agent Coulson as the underdog-geek in the Avengers that was kind of a joke.... and I'd hoped that Agents of Shield was going to be a bit like Twin Peaks (during its more interesting times)- and be extremely quirky, weird, and offbeat... but, instead, it was mostly pretty conventional and at its best watchable and interesting enough tv. Anyhow- too much chat on a show I'm meh on. What were we talking about originally? I don’t think she was miscast the character itself was just a bit stereotypical. The frosty Asian badass. They had a reason for it but when May did open up emotionally Ming Na Wen Was great at it. Agents of Shield was caught in the middle of two sides behind the scenes that did not get along. Smallville was limited by decisions they movie side made but because it wasn’t connected to anything on the other side it wasn’t beholden to working itself around the movie sides plans the same way Agents of Shield was. AOS was at its best when they started to do their own thing on seasons 3 and 4. It was still limited but not nearly as much because the show had built its own identity. Absolutely agree- it was a decent show, given all the obstacles set against it behind the scenes- but, like a lot of Marvel (and DC even more)- it doesn't feel like the best possible version of AOS was designed or really had a chance to be all it could have been. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 25, 2022 22:49:18 GMT -5
I don’t think she was miscast the character itself was just a bit stereotypical. The frosty Asian badass. They had a reason for it but when May did open up emotionally Ming Na Wen Was great at it. Agents of Shield was caught in the middle of two sides behind the scenes that did not get along. Smallville was limited by decisions they movie side made but because it wasn’t connected to anything on the other side it wasn’t beholden to working itself around the movie sides plans the same way Agents of Shield was. AOS was at its best when they started to do their own thing on seasons 3 and 4. It was still limited but not nearly as much because the show had built its own identity. Absolutely agree- it was a decent show, given all the obstacles set against it behind the scenes- but, like a lot of Marvel (and DC even more)- it doesn't feel like the best possible version of AOS was designed or really had a chance to be all it could have been. People had expectations for what AOS was going to be and what they wanted it to be but because of built in business limitations it was never going to be that. It could have been better though. That didn’t always happen because of the people involved but occasionally it did and occasionally it was great. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 25, 2022 23:50:58 GMT -5
Absolutely agree- it was a decent show, given all the obstacles set against it behind the scenes- but, like a lot of Marvel (and DC even more)- it doesn't feel like the best possible version of AOS was designed or really had a chance to be all it could have been. People had expectations for what AOS was going to be and what they wanted it to be but because of built in business limitations it was never going to be that. It could have been better though. That didn’t always happen because of the people involved but occasionally it did and occasionally it was great. Agreed... it's an interesting study writing-wise to see how certain things kept it more interesting than it had a right to be, given all its handcuffs. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 26, 2022 12:26:32 GMT -5
People had expectations for what AOS was going to be and what they wanted it to be but because of built in business limitations it was never going to be that. It could have been better though. That didn’t always happen because of the people involved but occasionally it did and occasionally it was great. Agreed... it's an interesting study writing-wise to see how certain things kept it more interesting than it had a right to be, given all its handcuffs. It was all about quality along with expanding their creative horizons. Once they stopped trying to make it something so dependent on the movies like a side project the show got better. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 27, 2022 2:33:04 GMT -5
Agreed... it's an interesting study writing-wise to see how certain things kept it more interesting than it had a right to be, given all its handcuffs. It was all about quality along with expanding their creative horizons. Once they stopped trying to make it something so dependent on the movies like a side project the show got better. I do wish that I liked more of the characters. The show is very watchable despite me not liking 80 percent of the characters they designed... so that's saying something! |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 27, 2022 12:57:39 GMT -5
It was all about quality along with expanding their creative horizons. Once they stopped trying to make it something so dependent on the movies like a side project the show got better. I do wish that I liked more of the characters. The show is very watchable despite me not liking 80 percent of the characters they designed... so that's saying something! I thought the show had a few very good characters. Problem is some of them were what many people were expecting especially for SHIELD agents. The show also had a habit of shockingly killing characters off fairly regularly. I doubt anyone expected Lucy Lawless’s character to die two episodes in. They also spun Bobbi and Hunter off into their own show that never even got off the ground. |
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