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Post by EnriqueH on Mar 17, 2014 15:43:27 GMT -5
What do you guys think of this bold move by Marvel?
I haven't seen any talk here about it.
Ballsy for sure.
I have to imagine that even though Captain America will likely be better, MOS2 will probably win at the boxoffice for sheer brand name: Superman AND Batman. Of course, this isn't Christopher Reeve and Christian Bale. It's Henry Cavill, an unproven commodity, and Ben Affleck, who was not a popular choice for the role.
Marvel sees a weakness in DC's armor and seems to be exploiting it.
Marvel has everything to gain, while DC has everything to lose. If Marvel loses, it's ok because it's expected to going against DC's top 2 names.
But if Marvel wins???
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 18, 2014 0:48:02 GMT -5
Well.... It's such a weird situation that was inevitably going to happen-
What I mean is, that there are so many supehero film projects, that potentially one could damage the box office of the other.
Personally- If I recall right, I like what Kevin Feige said before about comic book films succeeding that weren't necessarily under Marvel productions--- that successful box office for superhero films in general helped everybody.
I just picked up the X-men: Days of Future Past Empire magazine with Singer talking about how basically Avengers' giant box office helped him ask the studio for more money to make his X-men crossover happen, given how many big stars there are now.
While I like to see the movies I like get supported and the ones I don't not..... I remember all those years with Reeve's Superman films, where the Hollywood slate of superhero films was little to none for a long time. If Superman IV had been a giant hit, would more superhero films have been greenlit faster?
So- I have a mixed reaction to MOS succeeding or not. First, of course, is that I haven't seen it yet- it could suprise in the way that FF 2 suprised me (I enjoyed it, and thought it an improvement though not a classic).... but I REALLY enjoy the machine that Marvel is currently and- if it has to be a choice between the WB/DC boat and the Marvel boat- can't help but go with the Marvel boat based on how they've been adapting their properties overall.
At the same time--- It's so hard to predict Hollywood at times.
Raimi's spiderman series made a billion- but they were fine not following Raimi/Maguire to a fourth Spiderman film. (*Raimi says he didn't have S4 ready by the time the studio wanted, but wouldn't they want to wait based on Raimi's box office track record of the series?)
X-men 1 & 2 made great money- but the studio at the time left Singer hanging, not certain of whether or not to make a big-budget version of the Phoenix saga or not- and let Singer slip away rather than lock him in.
Dark Knight made a billion- and I thought it would have pushed for SR 2 to be made- but instead, it pushed the studio to want a reboot instead.
So..... The line of cause and effect in Hwood doesn't always seem straight and clear to me.
Having said all that, though- yeah, the scheduling does seem a bit odd (and border on arrogant).
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theoj
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Post by theoj on Mar 18, 2014 19:49:58 GMT -5
One of them will budge, and probably Cap 3.
It will hurt both of them to the tune of 50-100 million dollars of box office if they open against each other.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 18, 2014 23:31:12 GMT -5
Well I want to say BvsS/MOS II will win the box office battle but it's seemingly more and more obvious which will be the better film. But...like you said Enrique Marvel can take a film underperforming of even failing right now. If BvsS failed...WBs comic book movie ambitions would be fracked. They can't absorb a failure right now. Marvel had built up a tremendous amount of good will that DC/WB simply didn't with MOS. Either party would be wise to move but I imagine Marvel has a ton of confidence on Cap 3. It doesn't have to make a billion dollars and Marvel knows it. Expectations are far higher for what MOS 2 HAS to accomplish.
We also have little idea what the Marvel landscape will be like Post Cap 2 and post Avengers 2 if they are big well received hits. That could affect the dynamic.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 19, 2014 19:50:17 GMT -5
Well I want to say BvsS/MOS II will win the box office battle but it's seemingly more and more obvious which will be the better film. But...like you said Enrique Marvel can take a film underperforming of even failing right now. If BvsS failed...WBs comic book movie ambitions would be fracked. They can't absorb a failure right now. Marvel had built up a tremendous amount of good will that DC/WB simply didn't with MOS. Either party would be wise to move but I imagine Marvel has a ton of confidence on Cap 3. It doesn't have to make a billion dollars and Marvel knows it. Expectations are far higher for what MOS 2 HAS to accomplish. We also have little idea what the Marvel landscape will be like Post Cap 2 and post Avengers 2 if they are big well received hits. That could affect the dynamic. I think the question might be- What will WB investors/board of directors/whoever has the real power at WB- demand for a performance from MOS 2/etc.? What I mean is: WB has gotten billion dollar success with Nolan's Batman- But- Disastrous results with Green Lantern. And- Moderate/good results with MOS boxofficewise. Do any heads roll at WB if the next MOS film/JLA film bombs? Or are there no consequences? Personally- I'd like to see a proper counterpart to Kevin Feige at WB- but instead, it seems on the surface that it's just copying here and there what they think Marvel is doing right with their plans.... I'm not 100% crazy over all of Marvel's choices, but so far, it's not even a debate with any fans how successful Marvel has been overall with getting their projects off the ground and successful versus WB/DC's hit to failure rate. Maybe the perfect plan is for WB/DC to completely fail with all of its superhero projects, WB as a company gets brought down to its knees like Orion Pictures/etc., and bought out by Disney, who hands the property over to Marvel and Kevin Feige to develop. On the other hand- there's no telling if Marvel ends up failing over time (not impossible, but I hope not), and the whole genre gets in danger. Can never tell the future 100%....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 19, 2014 20:13:34 GMT -5
Well I think it depends on how much MOS 2 costs more than anything but I can't imagine WB being happy if this made less than a billion.
DC needs to be its own studio under the WB umbrella. As it is now these characters just don't have the freedom to be what they are or what they could be.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 20, 2014 1:42:00 GMT -5
Well I think it depends on how much MOS 2 costs more than anything but I can't imagine WB being happy if this made less than a billion. DC needs to be its own studio under the WB umbrella. As it is now these characters just don't have the freedom to be what they are or what they could be. Whatever the system is at WB, it certainly doesn't seem like it's a system that's working all that great, I agree. I think the only problem I could foresee with DC being its own studio, is that from what I read, DC has made a total mess of their own comics' company- so maybe they're NOT the best folks to run a studio.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 20, 2014 10:17:22 GMT -5
They have. But DiDio shouldn't be head of a studio much less DC. It's all gone downhill since his tenure began. I'd say Johns but it seems like lately he's been creatively impotent and really disappointed me. Too many great writers have either had their hands tied of they've become complacent yes men.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 21, 2014 9:27:42 GMT -5
They have. But DiDio shouldn't be head of a studio much less DC. It's all gone downhill since his tenure began. I'd say Johns but it seems like lately he's been creatively impotent and really disappointed me. Too many great writers have either had their hands tied of they've become complacent yes men. I generally agree- but I also come from a time when comics were supposedly on the edge of extinction (at least in the form that we knew them- supposedly the newspaper comic strips would have lived on- but, instead, it's kind of turned out the other way.... comic books are going strong enough and newspapers are on the edge of extinction)- so I've kind of scratched my head on the desperate creative ups and downs with DC as they tried to appeal to the broadest audience. The current mess - could well be under Didio and the giant amount of micromanaging I read is happening with too many assistant editors and the chaotic 'coordinating' of crossover books- at least I'm reading this from interviews with DC writers who have left/ on the edge of leaving because of these situations. In any case- I left buying newer comics awhile ago--- but saving pennies and massively enjoying reprints. Someone let me know when dc/marvel gets good again.
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Post by Metallo on Mar 23, 2014 11:22:26 GMT -5
To me they've become so uber serious and formulaic and so reliant on certain trends that current comics just aren't worth it. DC in particular seems to have lost much of the spirit of its characters. Barry Allen pouting around guilty because of his dead mommy? C'mon that's not The Flash.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2014 15:00:32 GMT -5
To me they've become so uber serious and formulaic and so reliant on certain trends that current comics just aren't worth it. DC in particular seems to have lost much of the spirit of its characters. Barry Allen pouting around guilty because of his dead mommy? C'mon that's not The Flash. True- but I also am looking at how desperate DC was in the 60's to make most of their superhero comics dark and about solving pollution, racism, etc.in the most prententious ways---- which was either admirable or just really trying to fight declining sales at the time. (maybe a little of both?) So- while I'm not interested in the current comics, I'm aware that the powers that be that are currently at place at DC aren't the first to unravel their characters to chase a buck.... but, yeah, it's sad--- hopefully the 'darkness' trend will pass and we'll see a better cycle for comics on the way soon.....
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theoj
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Post by theoj on Mar 23, 2014 17:48:06 GMT -5
Just sell DC to Disney! Disney have got Marvel, they've got Star Wars and they've got Frozen with over a billion dollars worldwide receipts, so right now they can't put a foot wrong!!
Maybe Superman would also be better off in the hands of Disney? Maybe Disney would give Superman the respect he deserves?
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Post by Metallo on Mar 23, 2014 23:07:11 GMT -5
That would be one heck of a monopoly. I mean I hate to say it but marvel would probably do something more interesting as long as they didn't totally reinvent the characters but even their comics seem to be ahead of DCs. Disney would probably treat Superman as a more wholesome positive character. To me they've become so uber serious and formulaic and so reliant on certain trends that current comics just aren't worth it. DC in particular seems to have lost much of the spirit of its characters. Barry Allen pouting around guilty because of his dead mommy? C'mon that's not The Flash. True- but I also am looking at how desperate DC was in the 60's to make most of their superhero comics dark and about solving pollution, racism, etc.in the most prententious ways---- which was either admirable or just really trying to fight declining sales at the time. (maybe a little of both?) So- while I'm not interested in the current comics, I'm aware that the powers that be that are currently at place at DC aren't the first to unravel their characters to chase a buck.... but, yeah, it's sad--- hopefully the 'darkness' trend will pass and we'll see a better cycle for comics on the way soon..... In the 70s they were trying to do a little of what Marvel did and become more socially relevant but it felt like they still had that moral compass set for their characters. Not so much now. Now they seem to be utterly confused and trying to find trends to follow with no real strong creative direction that stays true to the characters. The animated stuff was the last refuge for fans looking for that but now with the new 52 influence seeping in there that's seems threatened.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 24, 2014 0:53:53 GMT -5
That would be one heck of a monopoly. I mean I hate to say it but marvel would probably do something more interesting as long as they didn't totally reinvent the characters but even their comics seem to be ahead of DCs. Disney would probably treat Superman as a more wholesome positive character. True- but I also am looking at how desperate DC was in the 60's to make most of their superhero comics dark and about solving pollution, racism, etc.in the most prententious ways---- which was either admirable or just really trying to fight declining sales at the time. (maybe a little of both?) So- while I'm not interested in the current comics, I'm aware that the powers that be that are currently at place at DC aren't the first to unravel their characters to chase a buck.... but, yeah, it's sad--- hopefully the 'darkness' trend will pass and we'll see a better cycle for comics on the way soon..... In the 70s they were trying to do a little of what Marvel did and become more socially relevant but it felt like they still had that moral compass set for their characters. Not so much now. Now they seem to be utterly confused and trying to find trends to follow with no real strong creative direction that stays true to the characters. The animated stuff was the last refuge for fans looking for that but now with the new 52 influence seeping in there that's seems threatened. I actually think the moral compass at DC started deteriorating more and more once they saw that Alan Moore's Watchmen and Miller's Daredevil/Batman were selling so well. Even Moore has said that he felt bad that DC/Marvel seemed to imitate the level of darkness that Miller and Moore seemed to introduce to superheroes- but not the sense of irony.... While I think there was still quality material after Miller/Moore- the line of what was acceptable for DC heroes certainly started to wobble and fall apart. If MOS was violence porn of sorts- then DC comics went there first before then. PIty. You're right- at least Disney/Marvel seems to want to keep the characters' virtuous qualities intact. At WB/DC, Arrow is not all that different from the Punisher on tv, too. Funny that there was a time that the Punisher was considered a villain in comics.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 24, 2014 9:14:26 GMT -5
That would be one heck of a monopoly. I mean I hate to say it but marvel would probably do something more interesting as long as they didn't totally reinvent the characters but even their comics seem to be ahead of DCs. Disney would probably treat Superman as a more wholesome positive character. In the 70s they were trying to do a little of what Marvel did and become more socially relevant but it felt like they still had that moral compass set for their characters. Not so much now. Now they seem to be utterly confused and trying to find trends to follow with no real strong creative direction that stays true to the characters. The animated stuff was the last refuge for fans looking for that but now with the new 52 influence seeping in there that's seems threatened. I actually think the moral compass at DC started deteriorating more and more once they saw that Alan Moore's Watchmen and Miller's Daredevil/Batman were selling so well. Even Moore has said that he felt bad that DC/Marvel seemed to imitate the level of darkness that Miller and Moore seemed to introduce to superheroes- but not the sense of irony.... While I think there was still quality material after Miller/Moore- the line of what was acceptable for DC heroes certainly started to wobble and fall apart. If MOS was violence porn of sorts- then DC comics went there first before then. PIty. You're right- at least Disney/Marvel seems to want to keep the characters' virtuous qualities intact. At WB/DC, Arrow is not all that different from the Punisher on tv, too. Funny that there was a time that the Punisher was considered a villain in comics. That's true too. DC and most of comics jumped on the grim and gritty bandwagon in the 80s without understanding why it was done in stuff like Watchmen and TDKR. I know Moore regrets that everybody tried to copy what he did. That was never his intention. Watchmen was making point with its type of storytelling. It wasn't meant to set some trend for everyone to follow. The big companies didn't care about those intentions tho and just jumped on the bandwagon without thinking about it I will say tho that even in the 80s what DC did was no where near what MOS did. There was an uptick in violence and action but it wasn't as soulless as what we saw in MOS. There were ramifications and regrets on the part of the characters. Time was given for everyone to reflect on that violence. It wasn't as gratuitous. When Superman fought doomsday his morality and ethics and concerns were still made far more clear. The character wasn't as compromised.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 24, 2014 19:52:34 GMT -5
I actually think the moral compass at DC started deteriorating more and more once they saw that Alan Moore's Watchmen and Miller's Daredevil/Batman were selling so well. Even Moore has said that he felt bad that DC/Marvel seemed to imitate the level of darkness that Miller and Moore seemed to introduce to superheroes- but not the sense of irony.... While I think there was still quality material after Miller/Moore- the line of what was acceptable for DC heroes certainly started to wobble and fall apart. If MOS was violence porn of sorts- then DC comics went there first before then. PIty. You're right- at least Disney/Marvel seems to want to keep the characters' virtuous qualities intact. At WB/DC, Arrow is not all that different from the Punisher on tv, too. Funny that there was a time that the Punisher was considered a villain in comics. That's true too. DC and most of comics jumped on the grim and gritty bandwagon in the 80s without understanding why it was done in stuff like Watchmen and TDKR. I know Moore regrets that everybody tried to copy what he did. That was never his intention. Watchmen was making point with its type of storytelling. It wasn't meant to set some trend for everyone to follow. The big companies didn't care about those intentions tho and just jumped on the bandwagon without thinking about it I will say tho that even in the 80s what DC did was no where near what MOS did. There was an uptick in violence and action but it wasn't as soulless as what we saw in MOS. There were ramifications and regrets on the part of the characters. Time was given for everyone to reflect on that violence. It wasn't as gratuitous. When Superman fought doomsday his morality and ethics and concerns were still made far more clear. The character wasn't as compromised. True... But, I have a feeling that with kids (maybe 10 years and up?) pretty dull to fantasy violence via videogames, youtube, generally more violent comic books and the like- Superman would have been a blip regardless if he stayed true to his more pacifistic origins or not. (Not that I'm happy about it, but I know the kids I taught 10-15 years old in 2006 had next to no interest in a Superman movie or comics that summer SR came out.) It's sad to think that the character was introduced to a new generation in such a cold version, apathetic to collateral damage- but at the same time, I can't deny that a number of friends who never cared for the Superman character nor the Reeve films loved it. So, you could say the reinvention did work for some, but permanently alienated (or at least put up certain barriers) for others. Thank goodness, though, that the spirit of the old Superman exists in other superhero films out there. Eventually I think, though, that his character will eventually come back to the way it was at one time. If not, thank goodness that the hardback reprints, tv shows, and Reeve films aren't going anywhere.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 30, 2014 13:50:49 GMT -5
But I think this new version has kinda come and went too. It didn't capture kids imaginations the way even something like bay's transformers did. WB Doesn't seem to know who to cater to. They to back and forth in every way.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2014 19:16:19 GMT -5
But I think this new version has kinda come and went too. It didn't capture kids imaginations the way even something like bay's transformers did. WB Doesn't seem to know who to cater to. They to back and forth in every way. Neither SR nor MOS were 'event' films anymore, because now they're (more/less) big budget superhero films among a number of other superhero films. As far as WB goes..... I really don't know what to think of them. John August (who was involved with/wrote drafts of Shazam for them) has talked openly about what a clusterfrak it is over there- But on another hand Singer has said that he was given pretty much free reign with SR (which I'm mostly thankful for); and Nolan seems to have had little restriction with BB/TDK (although I'd read on Peter David's blog that Nolan wanted to kill off Bruce Wayne for TDKR- but got nixed by WB- too bad he didn't fight for an alternate version on dvd)... If my guess is right- that they are just leaving it on this/that director to steer the ship for Superman & Batman- then the main error imo is just having them entrust Goyer/Snyder. In any case..... thank goodness for Marvel and for blu-rays to preserve the Donner work, at the very least.....
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Post by Metallo on Apr 5, 2014 10:05:13 GMT -5
Welp Cap 2 is getting rave reviews. This certainly makes this face off even more interesting. I hope Marvel stays the course. They shouldn't have to move considering how they've proved themselves and what a Cap series is capable of.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 5, 2014 17:59:53 GMT -5
Welp Cap 2 is getting rave reviews. This certainly makes this face off even more interesting. I hope Marvel stays the course. They shouldn't have to move considering how they've proved themselves and what a Cap series is capable of. I saw it this morning- but was spoiled by maybe all the hype prior to. It's good, and has some great scenes-- but I'll share my review at Don's Diner. What's funny to me is just - for a production company that doesn't always have it's script ready to shoot- how much on the outside, it looks like they don't have many hiccups in keeping the train moving at Marvel Studios. It's funny to think that just as we're seeing Cap 2 now, Chris Evans is already shooting scenes for Avengers 2. Is it ALL Kevin Feige? In any case- SOMEONE at WB has to be thinking quietly "why can't we get our act together like Marvel? We own just as many characters!". An aside: it'll be interesting to see if they'll renegotiate a new contract for Chris Evans, as his original contract was for 9 movies- then down to 6 appearances, which - if my math is right, runs out after Cap 3. Will Chris be like Robert Downey and play ball or will he be like Christian Bale and hang it up? (If so, will they write Steve Rogers out gracefully and have the character Bucky (Since Sebastian Stan I'd read somewhere DOES have a 9-picture contract) take over for Captain America? So many possibilities....)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 6, 2014 8:53:04 GMT -5
Recasting is inevitable. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it though. Marvels got the formula down and the machine is running pretty smoothly. Even if they don't have a final script they've done this enough to know how to get it done right. Biggest difference is Marvel has the freedom and the sense to trust the material. WB Doesn't. They either look down on it, don't understand it, or think they know how to Improve it for a cinema audience. For the most part Marvel puts their books on screen with the necessarily changes for a cinematic translation. WB doesn't do that. There's a lot of change just for the sake of change and the best elements tend to get lost. Green Lantern had corporate meddling all over it. WB, trust in the material and the characters.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 6, 2014 11:15:17 GMT -5
Recasting is inevitable. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it though. Marvels got the formula down and the machine is running pretty smoothly. Even if they don't have a final script they've done this enough to know how to get it done right. Biggest difference is Marvel has the freedom and the sense to trust the material. WB Doesn't. They either look down on it, don't understand it, or think they know how to Improve it for a cinema audience. For the most part Marvel puts their books on screen with the necessarily changes for a cinematic translation. WB doesn't do that. There's a lot of change just for the sake of change and the best elements tend to get lost. Green Lantern had corporate meddling all over it. WB, trust in the material and the characters. It doesn't feel like there's ANYONE at WB who's in a position of power or trust to be just given the position to oversee the DC heroes properly. I have to give Disney (grudgingly) a lot of credit.... by NOT interfering (as far as we can see) with Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios. My only real beef with Feige's tastes (if I'm reading behind the lines correctly on some of these commentaries and interviews with directors and actors on the Marvel movies) is the reluctance to give the villains more depth. For sure, I think the first Captain America movie and Iron Man 2 definitely could have benefited from the villains having more depth (or menace). Anyhow, just getting spoiled from the superhero films that keep pushing the bar higher and higher (thank goodness)!
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Post by Metallo on Apr 6, 2014 12:44:20 GMT -5
I agree that most of the MCU villains have been lacking in one area or another with Loki being one of the few exceptions but they've also avoided a lot of the cliches of villains past too. And it also reverses the trend of a lot of 90s superhero films where the hero got short changed in favor of the villains. The Marvel studios heroes are really fleshed out. I'm just glad Feige is an improvement over Arad in just about every way. Boy did he turn out to be a real shyster.
Anyway it's a great time to be a marvel fan right now. When I see the films I feel like a kid again when I read these books. Its the characters I grew up on more or less as they were. It's just a good feeling.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 6, 2014 15:24:18 GMT -5
[quote author=" Metallo" source="/post/166651/thread" timestamp="1396806260"And it also reverses the trend of a lot of 90s superhero films where the hero got short changed in favor of the villains. The Marvel studios heroes are really fleshed out. I'm just glad Feige is an improvement over Arad in just about every way. Boy did he turn out to be a real shyster. Anyway it's a great time to be a marvel fan right now. When I see the films I feel like a kid again when I read these books. Its the characters I grew up on more or less as they were. It's just a good feeling. [/quote] Ah.... again, good points, sir! I remember being pretty annoyed that Bruce Wayne got the short shrift in terms of characterization with most of the Batman movies- (which is why I loved Batman Begins' focus on Wayne for most of it)- I remember a discussion I had on the net, not knowing if Arad was a plus or a minus to Marvel fans in terms of what he did for the movies--- was he villain or hero? Did he have any power to speak of? In any case- regardless of the reason, I agree that Kevin Feige is getting (mostly) the kind of results we've wanted on the bigscreen that we never thought would happen. The only other thought I have about Marvel at this point is: I don't know if DISNEY owning them is such a good thing. Even though Disney sounds like they're (sortof) staying out of the way- I know that they want the comics to match the movies more--- which I'm not that bothered by, but will that include stopping the Marvel Masterwork reprint series of hardbacks/softbacks down the line? THAT would drive me nuts....
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