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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 10, 2016 13:13:47 GMT -5
Saw the new trailer for Cap 3---
Similar plot, but I think right now WAYYY charged up to see CIVIL WAR over BvS.
CIVIL WAR has the great visual style plus Marvel's scripters have done a great job with Agent Carter. (though I'm a little worried since Joss Whedon is no longer unofficial story editor of Marvel in general now)
BvS has a great visual style and what looks like a basically interesting storyline- but with not as many superheroes already established.
Will see who 'wins' at the box office, but that CIVIL WAR trailer has me REALLY amped. BvS looks great, will see them both- but I hope BvS comes first, in some ways...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 10, 2016 13:31:36 GMT -5
CAM Spideys got Ditko/Romita eyes too! Two weeks away from Dawn of Justice and Marvel drops their "trump" card so to speak. Brilliant timing. It really is a darn good trailer all around. Id been thinking CW would lose the box office battle to DOJ but after that I don't know. We've seen so little of either movie but if CW Is a better movie...it could go either way. I trust the Russos far more than I trust Snyder.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 10, 2016 16:42:51 GMT -5
I think even if the Russos directed BvS, they definitely have a great style (just as Snyder has a great visual style imo)- but if it needed to be stacked up in interest with CW- I think I'd still be a bit more excited about CW for the reasons below:
I think what has me going for CW is this: * With this trailer, it seems more substantial and serious than Joss Whedon's "Age of Ultron" (which was entertaining but somewhat empty by the end) - though at this point, it's really more like a giant budget tv series....
* Many characters that I already enjoy and am curious about-
If this is an action and character development piece (which it looks like from this trailer)- I"m VERY excited. If it's entertaining but with little character development and 'good but not great'( like Age of Ultron), I'm sure I'll enjoy it, but be a bit disappointed as well. I want the Marvel movies to have a little more weight at this point, rather than JUST introducing other franchises and CGI action.
What BvS has is:
Great visuals. 1st time to see WW on the big screen with a big budget, even if it's only a small part- A chance for Snyder to redeem himself by making the minuses a plus from MOS Curiosity factor of how they're going to execute the interaction between the characters on the big screen
I wish they internal 'buzz' was great on BvS.
But.... I just want 'good' from BvS. I grant that it's hard to get invested with a new Batman actor when Bale wasn't Batman THAT long ago. (Or doesn't feel that way).
Will see soon enough...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 10, 2016 18:47:19 GMT -5
Don't forget CW finally...FINALLY giving us Spider-Man in the MCU. That's got to be at least as anticipated as Wonder Woman finally showing up on the big screen. Much like Affleck saying his Batman is the first we get to see to react to and interact in a world of Superpowered beings the same is true for Tom Hollands Spidey. Snyder handles stylized grand scale action well but the Russos handle up close in your face realistic action just as well if not better. The fight sequences between Cap and Bucky were everything I've ever wanted out of a Batman movie and more. When Steve Rogers gets his butt kicked he's cut up and bruised. There are consequences. I hope we see Batman deal with that in DOJ. I like how both films are dealing with the fallout of massive destruction from previous films. Both films have the heroes being confronted with their responsibility in all that. I think where CW comes out on top is there are years and years worth of examples across various films and while the governments representative in DOJ (Senator Finch) is someone we don't know nor have we ever met General Ross IS someone fans know all too well. Ross has dealt with the fallout from these kinds of incidents before and we know that. It adds an extra layer. It MEANS more when he says what he says. Even though Captan America and his Avengers had no hand in initiating much of this destruction and even tried to help the people (more than a certain cape wearing alien did in his similar situation) they were part of this escalation and that has to sting a lot. You're right there is a lot more going on. There are more conflicting emotions in Civil War. Steve had the chance to end Hydra in its early days but couldn't. We're seeing the fruit sown from those failures in the damage done to New York AND Washington AND Sokovia finally grow. You can trace it all back to 1944. If Steve had saved Bucky he would have never become Hydras attack dog and helped them accomplish so much. Caps internal struggle seems to be far more complicated. Did Bucky kill Howard and Maria Stark? It's certainly implied that Hydra had a hand.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 11, 2016 1:19:49 GMT -5
Don't forget CW finally...FINALLY giving us Spider-Man in the MCU. That's got to be at least as anticipated as Wonder Woman finally showing up on the big screen. MCU like Affleck saying his Batman is the first we get to see to react to and interact in a world of Superpowered beings the same is true for Tom Hollands Spidey. Snyder handles stylized grand scale action well but the Russos handle up close in your face realistic action just as well if not better. The fight sequences between Cap and Bucky were everything I've ever wanted out of a Batman movie and more. When Steve Rogers gets his butt kicked he's cut up and bruised. There are consequences. I hope we see Batman deal with that in DOJ. I like how both films are dealing with the fallout of massive destruction from previous films. Both films have the heroes being confronted with their responsibility in all that. I think where CW comes out on top is there are years and years worth of examples across various films and while the governments representative in DOJ (Senator Finch) is someone we don't know not have we ever met General Ross IS someone fans know all too well. Ross has dealt with the fallout from these kinds of incidents before and we know that. It adds an extra layer. It MEANS more when he says what he says. Even though Captan America and his Avengers had no hand in initiating much of this destruction and even tried to help he people (more than a certain cape wearing alien did in his similar situation) they were part of this escalation and that has to sting a lot. You're right there is a lot more going on. There are more conflicting emotions in Civil War. Steve had the chance to end Hydra in its early days but couldn't. We're seeing the fruit sown from those failures in the damage done to New York AND Washington AND Sokovia finally grow. You can trace it all back to 1944. If Steve had saved Bucky he would have never become Hydras attack dog and helped them accomplish so much. Caps internal struggle seems to be far more complicated. Did Bucky kill Howard and Maria Stark? It's certainly implied that Hydra had a hand. True... I should be more grateful, but I think I was hoping that it would have been Tobey Maguire's/Sam Raimi's Spiderman joining the MCU. EDIT: PARTS of Those first two Raimi Spiderman movies imo don't just hold up, but they're still even better than a good chunk of the superhero films we've seen so far, it would have been nice to solidify that and move forward, rather than go back to the beginning (more or less) with a new face so soon.
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Post by Metallo on Mar 11, 2016 9:07:09 GMT -5
I feel the same way. I wish it was a previously established Spider-Man joining the MCU but much like the Supergirl and Flash crossover on tv reconciling such different histories would be difficult. Plus both previous versions had some from the ground up issues and this new version looks to be getting more right from day one. I think we can finally see characters like MJ and Green Goblin done right and we can finally see Peters high school years handled best. I love Raimis first two films but you're right parts of them don't hold up as well. Especially Spider-Man 1. I was thinking about that the other day.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 14, 2016 22:56:50 GMT -5
I feel the same way. I wish it was a previously established Spider-Man joining the MCU but much like the Supergirl and Flash crossover on tv reconciling such different histories would be difficult. Plus both previous versions had some from the ground up issues and this new version looks to be getting more right from day one. I think we can finally see characters like MJ and Green Goblin done right and we can finally see Peters high school years handled best. I love Raimis first two films but you're right parts of them don't hold up as well. Especially Spider-Man 1. I was thinking about that the other day. I must have written the post late in the morning (happens often) I have to amend - I did an edit: I thought PARTS of the Raimi movies don't hold up well. The emotional core is fantastic on both, though. The reboot did an okay, but definitely a lesser job with the Parker story imo. I actually think a Netflix tv series by Sony/Marvel is a better way to go with Spiderman. When Raimi was doing the movies, and (at the time) knowing how rare those kinds of movies were going to be, I thought he did a fantastic job in condensing decades of Spiderman stories (much like STM). I'm extremely curious how the Sony/Marvel partnership will work out for the Spiderman movies.... or if the partnership will even last beyond one movie. I do find it odd that they're going back and greenlighting Venom, though. And even odder that they're (apparently) changing the screenwriter- who did "The Martian" and the pilot for "Daredevil". *sigh*
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 14, 2016 23:36:19 GMT -5
Ive thought about that too. Will Sony break things off once they are confident in their own films and feel they don't need Marvel anymore?
Spideys made for tv character wise. The CW tv shows have show how well his story could be told on tv. Getting past the budget and fx issues would be the problem. It would be much harder to pull off than something like Flash or Supergirl because he's not moving at superspeed. You can't blur his web swinging
The Amazing Spiderman trapped themselves by retelling the same story but being forced to try to make it as different as they could to justify it. It was done almost perfectly in the Raimi films ten years before. It'd be like Snyder doing a full on Batman origin film this year 11 years after Batman Begins.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2016 2:59:44 GMT -5
I do wonder what the contract was between them (will Spidey only be in Civil War, or the Avengers: Infinity War movies as well?)...
... and even so, not unheard of for studios to break their promises later on (sadly).
Will see.
As you mentioned Spidey on tv, I was thinking the CW specifically.... Smallville was so much a soap (unfortunately), that actually what I thought didn't work for Smallville would actually work great for Spidey- as much of the early Stan Lee stuff was very much high school soap opera and growing up.
Though- curious of course to see how things play out.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 17, 2016 12:39:46 GMT -5
Hard say. It's Supposedly more of a character exchange than a money exchange (and Sony needs the boost in interest and confidence far more than Marvel) so I guess it just depends on negotiations. Only Sony here to make Spider-Man movies. If imagine Spider-Man gets to appear in any marvel studios movie as long as Sony agrees.
I'd love to know how merchandising breaks down. Does Sony get a cut of any MCU movie merchandise involving Spiderman? Cap 3 isn't a Spiderman film but if they make merchandise using him why gets what? Will Marvel be allowed to?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2016 12:46:18 GMT -5
I'm ultimately wondering what Marvel really gets out of it. I don't know that adding Spiderman will generate more cash for Civil War. If it's a case where Marvel knows Sony is never going to let it go, even if bad movies get made- maybe Marvel wants to protect the overall reputation of Spiderman films?
Hard to know.... be nice if someone on the inside writes an article on it. Hmn...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 17, 2016 15:57:27 GMT -5
Oh yeah. Spidey in this movie is going to increase box office. By how much it's hard to say. But I think they're opening weekend predictions just went up after that second trailer dropped.
The complicated part of figuring out this deal was how money would be exchanged and how much. According to them it's more of a gentlemens agreement but who knows if that's true. Like I said before I want to know how the merchandising will work because that's where things get even more interesting.
This could lead down a path where Marvel eventually gets Spideys film rights back outright. I hope so but who knows if or how that could happen. You'd think if Sonys films do well that just strengthens their position but for all we know their deal could have laid the groundwork to get film rights back in a decade or two. That's pure speculation on my part. I have no proof. It's fun to think about though.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 17, 2016 23:32:14 GMT -5
Oh yeah. Spidey in this movie is going to increase box office. By how much it's hard to say. But I think they're opening weekend predictions just went up after that second trailer dropped. The complicated part of figuring out this deal was how money would be exchanged and how much. According to them it's more of a gentlemens agreement but who knows if that's true. Like I said before I want to know how the merchandising will work because that's where things get even more interesting. This could lead down a path where Marvel eventually gets Spideys film rights back outright. I hope so but who knows if or how that could happen. You'd think if Sonys films do well that just strengthens their position but for all we know their deal could have laid the groundwork to get film rights back in a decade or two. That's pure speculation on my part. I have no proof. It's fun to think about though. Really? With the MCU having gotten so huge now and with enough quality movies under its belt, I would have thought adding Spidey at this point made no difference, but I haven't kept up with the net response. I do hope that the movie does more character work than Avengers 2. I liked 2, but I'm ready for more character development and less CGI action... though I am encouraged by Chris Evans' praise of how the Rousso's are shooting Civil War in a way that seems more grounded (and I assume more powerful) than how Whedon approached it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 21, 2016 10:18:22 GMT -5
A lot of people were unsure if Spidey was or wasn't part of the MCU. The MCU is massive but that trailer cedes only confirms what a lot of casual viewers weren't sure about so it's definitely going to do some good for them marketing wise. Not everyone keeps up with this stuff. I got a good laugh when I read yesterday that someone was wondering why Green Lantern wasn't part of the MCU in 2011.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2016 11:50:45 GMT -5
That's a good point. I have too many friends that may be TOO into comics and movies that it's hard at times to gauge mainstream.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 23, 2016 14:12:46 GMT -5
It certainly looks like Civil War has the upper hand now. If it's a great film BvS is going to look even worse in some ways.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 24, 2016 10:36:12 GMT -5
Such a pity. www.aintitcool.com/node/74734With the extra time that they put into it, with the hopes that they learned from MOS criticisms, and with the news of Affleck inserting his influence for a degree of quality control... That's a shame to hear... But... Going to see it this weekend. I think if I wasn't so impressed by Donner and Singer's Superman, and most of the tv Superman versions, I probably would be far happier with MOS, but it's always been a standard that's stuck in my head. I'm glad that they say it's not a total loss- that people actually are really digging Batfleck. So, will see, I've disagreed with the majority before (I thought there was a lot of good in Wolverine: Origins & Star Trek: Generations, despite the world hating them)- Since I'm taking the family to see it and spending a fortune on taking them, hopefully it's a great film. On the flip side: Thank goodness if it's not good, that I have Civil War and X-men: Apocalypse to look forward to later on...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 24, 2016 11:42:23 GMT -5
I also thought there was a lot of good in generations and origins. It's just that the good sometimes gets overshadowed by the bad. I do think generations is a much better film than origins. Generations is mediocre at worst. Large chunks of Origins are truly horrible but I love some of the performances. That opening credits sequence is great.
I always knew BVS would be divisive but not this divisive. I don't mind the changes. Some of em work for me. In the case of MOS and BVS the problems are related to execution (writing, editing, directing, etc). I DID think they'd address some of those issues when making BVS but it doesn't seem like they did. Either Snyder just didn't get it, or he bucked the criticism in defiance, or he's totally under WB's thumb and had no control of choice. Or maybe it's some combination of all three.
They had more than enough time and money to whip this film into shape and I think that's what's so frustrating to some people. They had time to work on the script ad they had time in post production. If Snyder shot good stuff no one can say he didn't have time to perfect the edit. To be fair to him he had to cram a lot into this movie to set up the world building for DC films. I'm not sure anyone could have made this a great film with all those pressures and responsibilities. Then again that just confirms people's fears and apprehension about the way WB/DC decided to do it vs the way Marvel did. Rome wasn't built in a day so a shared DC universe should be expected to be either.
Feel a bit bad for Cavill. Takes a backseat in his own follow up movie and he's still being described as not on Christopher Reeve's level by many reviewers. Affleck isnt being compared to his predecessors nearly as much and when he is being called by some the best Batman ever. Affleck did call superman the harder role and I've always agreed. It's a more narrow line to walk.
WB really needs to develop the character in the next film. He can't stay the stone faced dour stoic Superman all the time. You've got to give people a reason to cheer him.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 24, 2016 13:49:32 GMT -5
The ORIGINAL original (Simon and Shuster) Superman comics show that Clark Kent's 'human guise' relationship was a window into other facets of Superman that were available.
Goyer/Snyder/Cavill (in interviews) seem to play the identity as a quiet 'disappear into the background' type of identity.... particularly if Lois already knows who he is. By having Lois already know, it removes a situation that not only allows some comedy, but also removes a situation that allows some creative tension and opportunity to show other sides of Superman's personality.
George Reeves always played Superman on tv with a wink knowing he was 'putting on' the rest of the world with his secret identity and had FUN with it.
Chris Reeves borrowed some of that, as well as Dean Cain....and it was totally missing in Smallville (but that's a whole other discussion).
I like Cavill, I thought he did a good job projecting the presence of Superman.... but the writing choices undermined the possibilities for Superman to have more personality, imo.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 25, 2016 16:40:51 GMT -5
They need to let the character open up and show a fuller range of emotions. Even if he's an outside he's raised human. He feels just like the rest of us. They've confused outsider with alien too much. Being alien or outcast doesn't make him relatable. The feelings he has makes him relatable. Most of the best Supermen were ones we could relate to because of the performances and the everyday stuff they had to deal with. In STM Clark couldn't get the girl because she was hanging around the quarterback. In Lois & Clark Clark moves to the big city and spends his first night in a rathole apartment. That's everyday stuff. Everyday problems that we all go through. It wasn't about "oh the world hates me because I'm from space." Yeah he's from space but he grew up here just like the rest of us.
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Post by dejan on Mar 25, 2016 19:24:16 GMT -5
They need to let the character open up and show a fuller range of emotions. Even if he's an outside he's raised human. He feels just like the rest of us. They've confused outsider with alien too much. Being alien or outcast doesn't make him relatable. The feelings he has makes him relatable. Most of the best Supermen were ones we could relate to because of the performances and the everyday stuff they had to deal with. In STM Clark couldn't get the girl because she was hanging around the quarterback. In Lois & Clark Clark moves to the big city and spends his first night in a rathole apartment. That's everyday stuff. Everyday problems that we all go through. It wasn't about "oh the world hates me because I'm from space." Yeah he's from space but he grew up here just like the rest of us. Great point.....very well said. I think you have got to the core of the problem right there. It's interesting that Cavill implied that Reeve's Clark drew too much attention to himself because he was clumsy. In fact Reeve's Clark is dismissed(by Lois), berated and bossed around(by Perry) and pretty much ignored(by other Daily Planet journalists)....everyday problems indeed.....and the reason why Reeve said that his Clark was relatable to the audience and to Reeve himself.
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Post by Metallo on Mar 25, 2016 20:56:40 GMT -5
It's just so frustrating. They're trying to make Superman relatable when the answer is right in their face. They just don't get him. The boyscout thing may be a problem for some people but even that can be fixed. He might be a boyscout but even a boyscout can get angry sometimes. It's the fact that he knows he's got to hold back that anger or else he can cause even worse problems that gives him depth. Most people get angry they go and punch a bag of hit a ball. Superman could crack a mountain. That's a lot to consider.
Hard to feel for Snyder's superman when he's this godlike being with a chiseled face zero percent body fat a good job and a hot girlfriend and he's still Debbie downer. Especially when people have REAL problems out there. People who have lost their homes to forclosure. People who are sick with cancer. I use to be down on Lois and Clark but at least Dean Cains superman didn't mope all th time and when he did it was for reasons people could relate too. I can't relate to losing a dad to intentionally walking into a tornado and just standing there in it but I can relate to having a dad get sick and die from it.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 26, 2016 3:31:57 GMT -5
It's just so frustrating. They're trying to make Superman relatable when the answer is right in their face. They just don't get him. The boyscout thing may be a problem for some people but even that can be fixed. He might be a boyscout but even a boyscout can get angry sometimes. It's the fact that he knows he's got to hold back that anger or else he can cause even worse problems that gives him depth. Most people get angry they go and punch a bag of hit a ball. Superman could crack a mountain. That's a lot to consider. Hard to feel for Snyder's superman when he's this godlike being with a chiseled face zero percent body fat a good job and a hot girlfriend and he's still Debbie downer. Especially when people have REAL problems out there. People who have lost their homes to forclosure. People who are sick with cancer. I use to be down on Lois and Clark but at least Dean Cains superman didn't mope all th time and when he did it was for reasons people could relate too. I can't relate to losing a dad to intentionally walking into a tornado and just standing there in it but I can relate to having a dad get sick and die from it. Absolutely. There are 2 types of restraint that need to be applied here. One....as you say is affiliated with the character....the ability to hold back and keep any excess in check. The other is the cinematic type of restraint.Unfortunately we are in an era where cinematic over-indulgences are the norm(cities being leveled,explosions every 2 seconds,CGI monsters of every denomination ect ect). This is encapsulated in that diner scene in MOS when Clark rams the bullie's truck through street lightpoles/logs. Over the top and definitely not relatable as a reaction.Snyder would probably justify it by saying it was ironic humour or something. The fact is that he as a director could not restrain himself ("Hey...ramming a truck through some street light poles is awesome!") And as you correctly say....the same situation arises with Pa Kent's demise in the tornado.I understand they needed something different to Donner's/Ford's heart attack but a tornado was well in excess of what was required and again it's not something that the average Jo could comprehend. So yeah they need to re-assess how they interpret how the audience interprets Superman/Clark Kent!.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 26, 2016 4:07:23 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 27, 2016 17:54:39 GMT -5
It's an interesting list, I agree.
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